Onionman Posted August 1, 2019 Report Share Posted August 1, 2019 (edited) 16 hours ago, Theo said: I have used Ecover for years n years and it works a sight better than Fairy L. The FL gives loads of foam that's hard to get rid of. Ecover gives much less foam, which I think is a good thing. That is just a reflection of how little actual detergent there is in Ecover compared to Fairy. The bubbles effectively show how much unused surfactant you have in the water. In an ideal world, as you finish washing your dishes there will be a single bubble left on the surface of the water, as all the remaining detergent will be doing its job of sticking to grease and dirt. If there's too much foam, you've used too much washing up liquid, regardless of brand. So if you use much less Fairy, you'll end up with just as clean dishes without excess bubbles. Edited August 1, 2019 by Onionman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceinSanity Posted August 1, 2019 Report Share Posted August 1, 2019 3 hours ago, carlt said: For the love of god get this man his coat. I take that as a compliment, though I don't deserve it. IIRC, it was originally a Frank Muir story at the end of an episode of My Word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen-in-Wellies Posted August 1, 2019 Report Share Posted August 1, 2019 Ecover is environmentally friendly because it is made entirely from a sustainable, renewable natural resource. Dolphin blubber. ? Showing that we need to define what we mean by environmentally friendly when discussing these things. Jen Is a product made from a renewable resource? Oil made from ancient squashed dinosaurs - Bad. Oil made from dolphin blubber - Good. Is a product cruel to animals? Oil made from ancient squashed dinosaurs - Good. Oil made from dolphin blubber - Bad. Is a product made from "natural" ingredients? Water synthesised from oxygen and hydrogen - Bad. Ricin obtained from castor beans - Good. Is a product toxic? Water synthesised from Oxygen and Hydrogen - Good. Ricin obtained from castor beans - Bad. Must the product be replaced frequently? Paper bag - Bad. Plastic bag - Good. Is the product easily biodegradable? Paper bag - Good. Plastic bag - Bad. Electricity power station taking up agricultural land. Gas fired station - Good. Solar panel farm - Bad. CO2 emissions. Gas fired station - Bad. Solar panel farm - Good. Endangered birds being killed. Coal fired power station - Good. Wind turbine - Bad. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onionman Posted August 1, 2019 Report Share Posted August 1, 2019 2 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said: Ecover is environmentally friendly because it is made entirely from a sustainable, renewable natural resource. Dolphin blubber. ? Are you absolutely certain of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewbacka Posted August 1, 2019 Report Share Posted August 1, 2019 13 minutes ago, Onionman said: Are you absolutely certain of that? I am pretty sure there are plenty of dolphins? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted August 1, 2019 Report Share Posted August 1, 2019 18 minutes ago, Chewbacka said: I am pretty sure there are plenty of dolphins? I luv dolphins and whales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted August 1, 2019 Report Share Posted August 1, 2019 9 minutes ago, mrsmelly said: I luv dolphins and whales. We are planning to move the boat back to Wales - lovely part of the world. We had many happy years in Holyhead Marina (but it is now no more since the storm last year destroyed it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted August 1, 2019 Report Share Posted August 1, 2019 8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said: We are planning to move the boat back to Wales - lovely part of the world. We had many happy years in Holyhead Marina (but it is now no more since the storm last year destroyed it). Eeeeeeeeeeejut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted August 1, 2019 Report Share Posted August 1, 2019 45 minutes ago, mrsmelly said: Eeeeeeeeeeejut Here is a picture (not very good) of a pod / school of Dolphins following us off the coast of Wales. They were probably about 10 feet long. You can just see the tip of its tail and half-way along its back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted August 1, 2019 Report Share Posted August 1, 2019 Just now, Alan de Enfield said: Here is a picture (not very good) of a pod / school of Dolphins following us off the coast of Wales. They were probably about 10 feet long. You can just see the tip of its tail and half-way along its back. As a child in the 70s I was lucky enough to be within only a few feet of lots of very big whales off the coast of Iceland on several occasions and in the pacific. Lubbly jubbly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted August 1, 2019 Report Share Posted August 1, 2019 1 minute ago, mrsmelly said: As a child in the 70s I was lucky enough to be within only a few feet of lots of very big whales off the coast of Iceland on several occasions and in the pacific. Lubbly jubbly. 'Bestest' we have seen was a basking shark about the same size as our (30 foot) boat. We actually 'pulled alongside it' in a bay between Holyhead & North Stack. A magic moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted August 1, 2019 Report Share Posted August 1, 2019 Just now, Alan de Enfield said: 'Bestest' we have seen was a basking shark about the same size as our (30 foot) boat. We actually 'pulled alongside it' in a bay between Holyhead & North Stack. A magic moment. I will tell you over a beer one day about a hilarious moment I had with a basking shark in the med one afternoon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Posted August 1, 2019 Report Share Posted August 1, 2019 7 hours ago, Tim Lewis said: From yesterday's London Evening Standard: How would you get 400 fishin a basin of water unless they were tiny, tiny fish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Todd Posted August 1, 2019 Report Share Posted August 1, 2019 3 hours ago, Onionman said: Are you absolutely certain of that? The ecover website states about its washing up liquid: "Using plant based and mineral ingredients and clever science you’ll get the results you expect without those unnecessary chemicals" However, its main active ingredient is the ubiquitous sodium lauryl sulfate used very widely. Ecover do not state where they get it from other than as in the quote but as far as I can see it is a manufactured chemical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerra Posted August 1, 2019 Report Share Posted August 1, 2019 1 hour ago, Mike Todd said: The ecover website states about its washing up liquid: "Using plant based and mineral ingredients and clever science you’ll get the results you expect without those unnecessary chemicals" However, its main active ingredient is the ubiquitous sodium lauryl sulfate used very widely. Ecover do not state where they get it from other than as in the quote but as far as I can see it is a manufactured chemical. All I can find about it is: Sodium lauryl sulfate can be made from petroleum oil (via the OXO process) or from coconut or palm oil (via the Ziegler process). In both processes, fatty acids are extracted and converted to fatty alcohols, then sulfonated to become a crystalline salt. So it would appear it could like the "bio" I use be based on a natural source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlt Posted August 1, 2019 Report Share Posted August 1, 2019 5 minutes ago, Jerra said: All I can find about it is: Sodium lauryl sulfate can be made from petroleum oil (via the OXO process) or from coconut or palm oil (via the Ziegler process). In both processes, fatty acids are extracted and converted to fatty alcohols, then sulfonated to become a crystalline salt. So it would appear it could like the "bio" I use be based on a natural source. Isn't petroleum oil from a "natural source" or were those dinosaurs synthesising chemicals long before us? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenA Posted August 1, 2019 Report Share Posted August 1, 2019 On 31/07/2019 at 08:44, Jen-in-Wellies said: Yes it is in the UK. Citation? Who says this? In what concentrations? Put a fish in neat fairy liquid and it will go belly up for sure. Dilute it to ppb levels, not so convinced. Citation? What academic research? Followed by obvious fact. Increased liveaboards in London and increased grey water discharge, but then an inference that this kills canal life and fish with no evidence. Duckweed needs several things, including weather conditions to go crazy. The lower end of the Stainforth & Keadby canal does this most summers. There are few moorings and fewer moving boats below Thorne. The flow of the canal leads to duck weed backing up for miles along the long pound between Keadby and Thorne Town locks. Every so often, the Keadby lock keepers flush some in to the Trent. It is so thick it is difficult to turn a narrowboat as the weight of weed resists any rotation of the vessel. Not saying grey water isn't a problem, but it needs some evidence provided to back up the assertion. There are tens of thousands of boats on the inland waterways that it would be a major pain to retrofit grey water tanks in, plus the extra disposal points that would be required. I go through 400 litres of water a week, much of which ends up as grey water. Jen Below, the Stainthorth & Keadby in 2013. Note the distinct lack of two and three deep moored liveaboards on the bank... Could duckweed be used as biomass for power production? I wonder if you could scale it up to an industrial level and use it as part of a semi closed cycle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlt Posted August 1, 2019 Report Share Posted August 1, 2019 One of the problems I have with these "natural" products such as coconut oil is that, when you lift the lid and take a closer look they are not quite as "green" as they are heralded. Coconut oil extraction is just as energy intensive as fossil oil unless it is cold pressed (I would hazard a guess that Ecover does not use cold pressed organic coconut oil). Then there are the food miles and the fact that the high prices we pay for it do not trickle down to the poor farmer. Coconuts may be the super plant that is going to save the world this week but look at Palm oil, Oilseed Rape, Quinoa and other wonder plants that have subsequently left a nasty taste in the mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewbacka Posted August 1, 2019 Report Share Posted August 1, 2019 Palm oil is far from environmentally friendly when you consider how much forest is cleared to grow the stuff. - Not to mention all the oil used in processing and shipping etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerra Posted August 1, 2019 Report Share Posted August 1, 2019 1 hour ago, carlt said: Isn't petroleum oil from a "natural source" or were those dinosaurs synthesising chemicals long before us? Bad wording should have said renewable and more easily biodegradable. 1 hour ago, carlt said: One of the problems I have with these "natural" products such as coconut oil is that, when you lift the lid and take a closer look they are not quite as "green" as they are heralded. Coconut oil extraction is just as energy intensive as fossil oil unless it is cold pressed (I would hazard a guess that Ecover does not use cold pressed organic coconut oil). Then there are the food miles and the fact that the high prices we pay for it do not trickle down to the poor farmer. Coconuts may be the super plant that is going to save the world this week but look at Palm oil, Oilseed Rape, Quinoa and other wonder plants that have subsequently left a nasty taste in the mouth. So what do you suggest as the answer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WotEver Posted August 1, 2019 Report Share Posted August 1, 2019 10 minutes ago, Jerra said: So what do you suggest as the answer? Continue using Fairy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlt Posted August 1, 2019 Report Share Posted August 1, 2019 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Jerra said: So what do you suggest as the answer? That really depends on the question. I tire of single issue organisations thinking they know the answer when what is needed is a more measured holistic approach. Coconut oil may be the answer for the locals who produce it but it is not the answer for us, halfway round the world. The trendy green fads have done more harm than good to local populations nearly every time the guardian publishes its latest planet saving miracle crop story. I did wonder if Greenpeace recycled its banners when it switched its pro palm oil biodiesel campaign to its "ban palm oil now" protest. Edited August 1, 2019 by carlt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Todd Posted August 1, 2019 Report Share Posted August 1, 2019 2 hours ago, Jerra said: All I can find about it is: Sodium lauryl sulfate can be made from petroleum oil (via the OXO process) or from coconut or palm oil (via the Ziegler process). In both processes, fatty acids are extracted and converted to fatty alcohols, then sulfonated to become a crystalline salt. So it would appear it could like the "bio" I use be based on a natural source. But are not they both chemical manufacturing process rather than extractions? That is, the output chemical was not in the original source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Bob Posted August 1, 2019 Report Share Posted August 1, 2019 30 minutes ago, Mike Todd said: But are not they both chemical manufacturing process rather than extractions? That is, the output chemical was not in the original source. The word 'converted' is the clue. The output chemical is different as the input chemical has been converted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerra Posted August 2, 2019 Report Share Posted August 2, 2019 10 hours ago, carlt said: That really depends on the question. I tire of single issue organisations thinking they know the answer when what is needed is a more measured holistic approach. Coconut oil may be the answer for the locals who produce it but it is not the answer for us, halfway round the world. The trendy green fads have done more harm than good to local populations nearly every time the guardian publishes its latest planet saving miracle crop story. I did wonder if Greenpeace recycled its banners when it switched its pro palm oil biodiesel campaign to its "ban palm oil now" protest. OK I will try to make the question clearer. Currently we use washing up liquid (particularly on boats) this can have a detriment effect on the environment. It makes sense if possible to reduce this damage by using "things" which are less harmful to the environment. You aren't happy with organic renewable things. Petroleum products will be/are running out. So the question is what do you suggest is done to provide a washing up liquid which is better for the environment? There is no organisation in this single or multiple it is a personal choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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