Grey water discharge

[NicolasL]

It seems to be standard practice for boats to discharge grey water directly into the canal. Fairy liquid and many cleaning products are toxic to fish. This week we’ve witnessed thousands of fish dead in the Grand Union in West London. CRT is “investigating”.   Academic water quality research has shown that London canals are highly polluted and boat discharges have vastly increased in the past few years.  It seems that pollution from solid bow-to-stern temporary mooring is killing the canal and fish. 

Duckweed proliferates in phosphorous rich water.

What can be done?  

[Mike Adams]

41 minutes ago, NicolasL said:

Academic water quality research has shown that London canals are highly polluted and boat discharges have vastly increased in the past few years.

Can you provide us with the  evidence for this?

[Alan de Enfield]

30 minutes ago, NicolasL said:

What can be done?  

One way would be to follow the lead made by the Mediterranean countries and introduce laws banning grey-water discharge within 12 miles of land.

Very hefty fines are imposed if caught.

 

It does mean however that you now need two waste water tanks (Black & Grey) and will need to visit the pump-out machine much more frequently.

 

It tends to be the Nitrogen which is generating the weed growth and that is as a result of using the Canal for emptying the toilets. (Urine is very rich in Nitrogen, Phosphorous and Potassium and there are proposals to use human urine as an agricultural fertiliser).

 

Whenever you get a large enclave of boats that move infrequently you will get the conditions you describe.

 

Many European boat builders are now building boats with both Grey & Black tanks as more countries follow Greece and Turkeys lead on pollution control.

 

A more draconian method would be to make the whole of London 24 hour mooring which would ensure that boats move and 'stir up the water' a bit 

[carlt]

43 minutes ago, NicolasL said:

 

What can be done?  

 

 

Whilst not disputing your uncited academic research I do know that the canals and rivers of the UK are no longer the stagnant open sewers devoid of life that they were in my youth. 

It is unlikely that the infrastructure required to deal with grey water tanks will be installed any time soon. 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

52 minutes ago, NicolasL said:

It seems to be standard practice for boats to discharge grey water directly into the canal.

Yes it is in the UK.

53 minutes ago, NicolasL said:

Fairy liquid and many cleaning products are toxic to fish

Citation? Who says this? In what concentrations? Put a fish in neat fairy liquid and it will go belly up for sure. Dilute it to ppb levels, not so convinced.

55 minutes ago, NicolasL said:

Academic water quality research has shown that London canals are highly polluted and boat discharges have vastly increased in the past few years.  It seems that pollution from solid bow-to-stern temporary mooring is killing the canal and fish. 

Citation? What academic research? Followed by obvious fact. Increased liveaboards in London and increased grey water discharge, but then an inference that this kills canal life and fish with no evidence.

56 minutes ago, NicolasL said:

Duckweed proliferates in phosphorous rich water.

Duckweed needs several things, including weather conditions to go crazy. The lower end of the Stainforth & Keadby canal does this most summers. There are few moorings and fewer moving boats below Thorne. The flow of the canal leads to duck weed backing up for miles along the long pound between Keadby and Thorne Town locks. Every so often, the Keadby lock keepers flush some in to the Trent. It is so thick it is difficult to turn a narrowboat as the weight of weed resists any rotation of the vessel.

 

Not saying grey water isn't a problem, but it needs some evidence provided to back up the assertion. There are tens of thousands of boats on the inland waterways that it would be a major pain to retrofit grey water tanks in, plus the extra disposal points that would be required. I go through 400 litres of water a week, much of which ends up as grey water.

 

Jen

Below, the Stainthorth & Keadby in 2013. Note the distinct lack of two and three deep moored liveaboards on the bank...

[Laurie Booth]

On the Canal de Midi in France everything from the boat is dumped into it.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Laurie.Booth

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, Laurie.Booth said:

One the Canal de Midi in France everything from the boat is dumped into it.

The frogs don't mind.

 

(A bit like the Cod that congregate at the end of the sewage discharge pipe off New Brighton)

 

 

Don't mention fish !!!!!!!!!!!

[carlt]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The frogs don't mind.

 

(A bit like the Cod that congregate at the end of the sewage discharge pipe off New Brighton)

 

 

Don't mention fish !!!!!!!!!!!

I'm sat in a marina which has no pump out facilities and no elsan point so I have opted to use the marina toilets. 

As there are 300 boats and never a queue for the bogs I can only assume that they are using their sea toilets and emptying straight into the river along with the grey water. 

I can only assume that mullet and whatever they eat are made of stern stuff because the water is teeming with them. 

No frogs though. 

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, carlt said:

I'm sat in a marina which has no pump out facilities and no elsan point so I have opted to use the marina toilets. 

As there are 300 boats and never a queue for the bogs I can only assume that they are using their sea toilets and emptying straight into the river along with the grey water. 

I can only assume that mullet and whatever they eat are made of stern stuff because the water is teeming with them. 

No frogs though. 

Frogs have never really taken to the salty water.

 

Would the 'river' get flushed twice a day ?

[NicolasL]

55 minutes ago, Mike Adams said:

Can you provide us with the  evidence for this?

Unfortunately I haven’t found much research but there is a detailed study of water quality in Regents Canal.  I have copied the conclusion below.  You can get the full paper via a link at the end of this post. 

 

2017 study.  

 

8. Conclusions and Recommendations

There is no doubt that the water quality in the Regent’s Canal is extremely poor as seen by the observed results of physical-chemical water quality parameters. The results of the analysis highlight the fact that the Regent’s canal water undergo nutrients catchment and algae blooms increasing. The rate of chemical reactions increased, and the solubility of gases decreased in water due to the higher temperature. The excessive pH value (Table 4) indicates that the characteristics of the Regent canal water are alkaline. The alkalinity of water mostly shows that the concentration of carbonates, bicarbonate and hydroxide present in water which may include phosphate, silicates and other compounds. The higher pH value in watercourse may result in eutrophic water and groundwater brine (Chapman, 1996). The observed pH value indicates that the eutrophication process is gradually increasing in the Regent’s Canal water. According to the Hampstead London weather (2017) report, the mean temperature over the period was approximately between 15 °C and 19 °C, but the Regent’s Canal water temperature was recorded higher which is lead to plant growth and algal blooms (Figure 15(b) and 18 (b)). The Regent’s canal water is polluted because of conventional Drainage Systems in London. The Regent’s Canal water bodies are continuously receiving significant quantities of polluting substances from streets, pavements, and roads. The proposed best feasible SuDS component can tackle this water pollution problem by holding back the peak rainwater volumes and reducing the “flushing” effect on the drainage system (London Sustainable Drainage Action Plan, 2015). The measured excessive phosphorous in the Regent’s canal indicates that the Regent’s Canal water is polluted. The eutrophication process occurs in water due to the high concentration of phosphorous. According to the OECD (2008) report, the high concentration of phosphate in water is associated with Eutrophication process. In figure 15(b) and 18(b) shows that the algal blooms are gradually increasing due to the excessive presence of phosphorous in the Regent’s Canal water. Though, nitrate concentration level variate from one site to another but an overall concentration of nitrate was found lower than the expected level which is a positive outcome. Consequently, the organisms in the Regent’s Canal water becomes more stressed because of low solubility dissolved oxygen in the water.

There have been several issues identified which are associated with water quality deterioration in the Regent’s Canal. Currently, London has around 47% green space which include 33% parks, woodland and farmlands and 14% private parks and domestic gardens but about 40% surface area is impermeable and 12% surface area consists of roads and streets (London Environmental Strategy, 2017). A growing trend of the total or partial demolition of old factories and warehouses which are replaced by new developments on the side of the Regent’s Canal in Islington site, there by altering the character of the water. The Hackney Council should take initiatives for the conservation of the Regent’s canal water quality. The urban development in London is significant causes of the loss of green space, the expansion of impermeable surfaces used for roads, roofs, pavements and increasing the risk of flooding (London Environmental Strategy, 2017). Sustainable Drainage System should be designed and implemented to mitigate the risk of local flooding, reduce pollution, increase green space and improve water quality (London Borough of Tower Hamlets, 2017). SuDS design, construction and long-term maintenance will help to achieve less runoff into the Regent’s Canal water and reduce the discharge of polluted water into water bodies through Combined Sewer Overflow (CSO) spills. The WFD suggest that contamination should be measured and regulated before discharge into watercourses (Ellis et al., 1985). Furthermore, new developments and re-development projects in Tower Hamlets, Islington, and Camden needs to be controlled by local Council. The local authority should be employed Sustainable Drainage System (SuDS) and implement legislation to control water pollution (Howell & Mackay, 1997). The Environmental Agency is not aware of the specific pollution problem associated with heavy metals, sewer misconnections and biological pollutions. In addition, The Environmental Agency should take effective action to enforce legislation or any effective monitoring system to back up that legislation (Faulkner et al., 1999). The Greater London Authority (2017) can act as a powerful advocate to find out the issues, set out policies and proposals and take effective action. Further investigations should be made to find out the sources of reactive phosphate and the reason of higher pH and temperature level than expected level in the Regent’s Canal. The five different boroughs along the canal should avoid to green space cover; reduce storm water runoff rate by using sustainable drainage system to mitigate water pollution. For example, the local authority should employ best feasible SuDS such as retrofit, Bioretention planters and Raingardens etc. The Bioretention planters and Raingardens designs collect runoff through an inlet or across a flush edge. The highway authorities should maintain SuDS in public road surface according to national standards requirements (London Borough of Camden SFRA, 2014). Further monitoring needs to cover seasonal variation and the best feasible SuDS approved by the SuDS Approval Body (SuDS Manual, 2007). Dumping is another kind of pollution source which is directly linked with human activity. In the above figure 12(b), 15(c) and 18(b) shows that people are dumping rubbish frequently into canal water. So, public behaviour and attitude should change, participation and awareness on the environment is the most key factor to reduce water pollution. However, it is tough to change people behaviour and attitude in short time. The best feasible method to prevent water pollution is to stop discharge of untreated water into the watercourse. Consequently, the remediation and mitigation process will be time-consuming and expensive. So, the new and practicable SuDS design techniques will aim to reduce the phosphate level, stop eutrophication and algae blooms in the Regent’s Canal water.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.researchgate.net/profile/M_Ali27/amp

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, NicolasL said:

Unfortunately I haven’t found much research but there is a detailed study of water quality in Regents Canal.  I have copied the conclusion below.  You can get the full paper via a link at the end of this post. 

 

2017 study.  

 

8. Conclusions and Recommendations

There is no doubt that the water quality in the Regent’s Canal is extremely poor as seen by the observed results of physical-chemical water quality parameters. The results of the analysis highlight the fact that the Regent’s canal water undergo nutrients catchment and algae blooms increasing. The rate of chemical reactions increased, and the solubility of gases decreased in water due to the higher temperature. The excessive pH value (Table 4) indicates that the characteristics of the Regent canal water are alkaline. The alkalinity of water mostly shows that the concentration of carbonates, bicarbonate and hydroxide present in water which may include phosphate, silicates and other compounds. The higher pH value in watercourse may result in eutrophic water and groundwater brine (Chapman, 1996). The observed pH value indicates that the eutrophication process is gradually increasing in the Regent’s Canal water. According to the Hampstead London weather (2017) report, the mean temperature over the period was approximately between 15 °C and 19 °C, but the Regent’s Canal water temperature was recorded higher which is lead to plant growth and algal blooms (Figure 15(b) and 18 (b)). The Regent’s canal water is polluted because of conventional Drainage Systems in London. The Regent’s Canal water bodies are continuously receiving significant quantities of polluting substances from streets, pavements, and roads. The proposed best feasible SuDS component can tackle this water pollution problem by holding back the peak rainwater volumes and reducing the “flushing” effect on the drainage system (London Sustainable Drainage Action Plan, 2015). The measured excessive phosphorous in the Regent’s canal indicates that the Regent’s Canal water is polluted. The eutrophication process occurs in water due to the high concentration of phosphorous. According to the OECD (2008) report, the high concentration of phosphate in water is associated with Eutrophication process. In figure 15(b) and 18(b) shows that the algal blooms are gradually increasing due to the excessive presence of phosphorous in the Regent’s Canal water. Though, nitrate concentration level variate from one site to another but an overall concentration of nitrate was found lower than the expected level which is a positive outcome. Consequently, the organisms in the Regent’s Canal water becomes more stressed because of low solubility dissolved oxygen in the water.

There have been several issues identified which are associated with water quality deterioration in the Regent’s Canal. Currently, London has around 47% green space which include 33% parks, woodland and farmlands and 14% private parks and domestic gardens but about 40% surface area is impermeable and 12% surface area consists of roads and streets (London Environmental Strategy, 2017). A growing trend of the total or partial demolition of old factories and warehouses which are replaced by new developments on the side of the Regent’s Canal in Islington site, there by altering the character of the water. The Hackney Council should take initiatives for the conservation of the Regent’s canal water quality. The urban development in London is significant causes of the loss of green space, the expansion of impermeable surfaces used for roads, roofs, pavements and increasing the risk of flooding (London Environmental Strategy, 2017). Sustainable Drainage System should be designed and implemented to mitigate the risk of local flooding, reduce pollution, increase green space and improve water quality (London Borough of Tower Hamlets, 2017). SuDS design, construction and long-term maintenance will help to achieve less runoff into the Regent’s Canal water and reduce the discharge of polluted water into water bodies through Combined Sewer Overflow (CSO) spills. The WFD suggest that contamination should be measured and regulated before discharge into watercourses (Ellis et al., 1985). Furthermore, new developments and re-development projects in Tower Hamlets, Islington, and Camden needs to be controlled by local Council. The local authority should be employed Sustainable Drainage System (SuDS) and implement legislation to control water pollution (Howell & Mackay, 1997). The Environmental Agency is not aware of the specific pollution problem associated with heavy metals, sewer misconnections and biological pollutions. In addition, The Environmental Agency should take effective action to enforce legislation or any effective monitoring system to back up that legislation (Faulkner et al., 1999). The Greater London Authority (2017) can act as a powerful advocate to find out the issues, set out policies and proposals and take effective action. Further investigations should be made to find out the sources of reactive phosphate and the reason of higher pH and temperature level than expected level in the Regent’s Canal. The five different boroughs along the canal should avoid to green space cover; reduce storm water runoff rate by using sustainable drainage system to mitigate water pollution. For example, the local authority should employ best feasible SuDS such as retrofit, Bioretention planters and Raingardens etc. The Bioretention planters and Raingardens designs collect runoff through an inlet or across a flush edge. The highway authorities should maintain SuDS in public road surface according to national standards requirements (London Borough of Camden SFRA, 2014). Further monitoring needs to cover seasonal variation and the best feasible SuDS approved by the SuDS Approval Body (SuDS Manual, 2007). Dumping is another kind of pollution source which is directly linked with human activity. In the above figure 12(b), 15(c) and 18(b) shows that people are dumping rubbish frequently into canal water. So, public behaviour and attitude should change, participation and awareness on the environment is the most key factor to reduce water pollution. However, it is tough to change people behaviour and attitude in short time. The best feasible method to prevent water pollution is to stop discharge of untreated water into the watercourse. Consequently, the remediation and mitigation process will be time-consuming and expensive. So, the new and practicable SuDS design techniques will aim to reduce the phosphate level, stop eutrophication and algae blooms in the Regent’s Canal water.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.researchgate.net/profile/M_Ali27/amp

 

 

 

Not seeing any 'blame' put on boaters ?

[Neil2]

In London I would have thought run off from waterside developments is a major factor, and if there's evidence of a serious problem that's where I would be looking rather than targeting boat users.  

 

As a matter of interest, talking to fishermen on the cut they tell me locations opposite moored boats or near marinas are often highly productive.  I assume this is because of the food waste discharge and suggests that the fish are not affected by detergents or cleaning solutions.  Lots of marinas have a resident heron these days which endorses this. 

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Neil2 said:

Lots of marinas have a resident heron these days which endorses this. 

Did they tell you this directly or thru an interpreter ?

[mrsmelly]

Its an environment issue. When the worlds governments get together and ban the millions of flights for holidays each year burning millions of tons of fossil fuel and after we have an infrastructure to charge the millions of nissan leafs we are all going to be driving in less than nineteen years  in the UK,  then perhaps an infrastructure will be put in for grey water tanks?

[NicolasL]

I’m not saying that grey water discharge is causing fish to die. However, there has been a big fish death event in west London in the past week (see picture of part of the clean-up). I am wondering about two things:

1. To what extent the housing crisis in London (which has led to many many more boats mooring alongside the towpaths bowtostern on canals such as the Paddington branch with no locks for many miles) is aggravating pollution levels?  Is grey water really an issue? Is sufficient research being done and acted upon?

2. What more can CRT do given the eutrophic conditions (for whatever reasons) creating smelly and unsightly duckweed-covered and polluted canals. In west London year by year duckweed levels have increased notably. 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, NicolasL said:

I’m not saying that grey water discharge is causing fish to die. However, there has been a big fish death event in west London in the past week (see picture of part of the clean-up).

 

Your opening statement stated :

 

1 hour ago, NicolasL said:

Academic water quality research has shown that London canals are highly polluted and boat discharges have vastly increased in the past few years.

 

Yet the academic study you linked to made no such mention, and your inference was that increasing boat numbers were responsible for the pollution.

The academic report states the increase in pollution is due to :

 

22 minutes ago, NicolasL said:

The Regent’s canal water is polluted because of conventional Drainage Systems in London. The Regent’s Canal water bodies are continuously receiving significant quantities of polluting substances from streets, pavements, and roads.

 

[Jerra]

58 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

 

Citation? Who says this? In what concentrations? Put a fish in neat fairy liquid and it will go belly up for sure. Dilute it to ppb levels, not so convinced.

Quote:

 

Most fish will die when detergent concentrations approach 15 parts per million. Detergent concentrations as low as 5 ppm will kill fish eggs. Surfactant detergents are implicated in decreasing the breeding ability of aquatic organisms. 

Read more: https://www.lenntech.com/aquatic/detergents.htm#ixzz5vF7p28R2

[carlt]

9 minutes ago, NicolasL said:

I’m not saying that grey water discharge is causing fish to die. However, there has been a big fish death event in west London in the past week (see picture of part of the clean-up). I am wondering about two things:

 

It may also be worth considering the unprecedented heatwave we had which may have deprived the fish of oxygen. 

A one off event usually has a one off cause. 

[Jerra]

4 minutes ago, carlt said:

It may also be worth considering the unprecedented heatwave we had which may have deprived the fish of oxygen. 

A one off event usually has a one off cause. 

Good point.   If the pollution was so bad there wouldn't be the population of fish to provide so many dead ones.  Unless of course there had been a single catastrophic pollution event.  Hardly likely grey water from any source.

[Tony Brooks]

16 minutes ago, carlt said:

It may also be worth considering the unprecedented heatwave we had which may have deprived the fish of oxygen. 

A one off event usually has a one off cause. 

I also suspect the primary cause, but not the only one was heat. At least in the past they used to pump air into the Thames (Thames Bubbler) when heat produced low oxygen levels in the water but I can't see the EA willingly doing that on CaRT waters and its not CaRT's job to deal with water quality.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

2 hours ago, Jerra said:

Quote:

 

Most fish will die when detergent concentrations approach 15 parts per million. Detergent concentrations as low as 5 ppm will kill fish eggs. Surfactant detergents are implicated in decreasing the breeding ability of aquatic organisms. 

Read more: https://www.lenntech.com/aquatic/detergents.htm#ixzz5vF7p28R2

That makes a lot of sense. I can see the surfactants in most domestic cleaning products being a problem for aquatic life in sufficient concentration. If a 3ml squirt of washing up liquid, fairly typical for a bowl full, is diluted in 1m³ of canal water, then the concentration goes down to 3ppm.

Where I moor, there are up to twenty boats, all with at least one person on board, putting washing up and personal hygiene water in the canal. We are on a 100m long pound by about 100m wide, with a water depth of around 2m, which is replaced by water let through a paddle on the lock that is left partially open. No bywashes here. That is around 20,000,000 litres of water to dilute our waste. 1ppm concentration of detergent in this would be 20 litres of pure detergent, which is a lot! We have prolific aquatic plant life here and a lot of fish of all ages and sizes from fry to large carp and pike. I'd agree with @Neil2 that our food waste going down the kitchen sink probably has a lot to do with this.

 

Talking to people who have lived around here their entire lives, the only fish you could find 50 or 60 years ago was the occasional stickleback. Canoeists would find the water burned their skin if it got on it. This was water pumped up from the river that was badly polluted by local industry. The industry that survives now has it's outflow strictly controlled and the canal and river here have recovered very well. There are some particularly sensitive species that have yet to return.

 

Some years ago, BW, CaRT's predecessor, made a big thing of trying to persuade boaters not to use phosphate based detergent, which are much worse news for aquatic life.

 

Jen

Edited July 31, 2019 by Jen-in-Wellies

[Jerra]

4 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

 

Some years ago, BW, CaRT's predecessor, made a big thing of trying to persuade boaters not to use phosphate based detergent, which are much worse news for aquatic life.

 

Jen

My friend who until he retired worked for the EA had the job of regularly sampling water from half the county and following up prosecutions invariably found the causes to be large scale incidents.  He was however of the opinion that if everyone used bio/eco type washing up liquids it would be good for the rivers.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

22 minutes ago, Jerra said:

My friend who until he retired worked for the EA had the job of regularly sampling water from half the county and following up prosecutions invariably found the causes to be large scale incidents.  He was however of the opinion that if everyone used bio/eco type washing up liquids it would be good for the rivers.

What are the active ingredients in bio/eco liquids? Are they citric acid based?

Jen

[Jerra]

4 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

What are the active ingredients in bio/eco liquids? Are they citric acid based?

Jen

I can only speak for the one we use which rejoices in the name "Bio concentrated washing up liquid".  They no longer list what it is made of by name at one time they told you the major constituent was coconut oil.  Now it says above 30% anionic surfacant below 5% nonionic surfacant, Sodium chloride and Citric acid.   Digging a little deeper on the internet it says it contains Coconut Oil, Aqua (why on earth don't they say water!) vegetable glycerine and the previously mentioned salt and citric acid.

 

Ecover says:  Aqua, Sodium lauryl sulfate, Lauryl glucoside, Glycereth -6 Cocoate, Coco-glucoside, Lactic acid, Sodium chloride, Sodium octyl sulphate, Alcohol denat., Parfum, Limonene, Citric acid, Sodium citrate

 

Whether <5% Citric Acid in the case of Bio counts as "based on"  I don't know.  Contains certainly but to me it seems based on "Aqua".

[mrsmelly]

17 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

What are the active ingredients in bio/eco liquids? Are they citric acid based?

Jen

There arnt any, they dont work. We have tried many over the years.