Second opinion

[RLWP]

8 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

As I understand it this offset was sometimes done to create a greater walkway down one side of the engine, though in a boat I saw which had a "traditional" style engine room forward of a back cabin, I thought it looked decidedly odd.

Depends how much it is done by. I worked on a WFB boat with an offset JP. It took me a day to spot why the walkway was so much more convenient

Richard

[MtB]

14 minutes ago, frahkn said:

The only reason that I have not researched this is that it would not be a complete solution. The off-set engine also makes the starter motor inaccessible - well it looks inaccessible and the boatyard say it is.

 

I've seen a few Orion boats and had them do a lot of work on one of mine. Richard was oddly fond of tucking engines away in bloody awkward places in his new-builds so I'm not surprised you have this problem. Weird, as otherwise their engineering is really excellent in my personal opinion. I think he actually quite enjoyed finding weird places for the engine so visitors would be puzzled about where it is.

Moving the engine to get access to the starter motor seems a good idea regardless of any propshaft issues. 

[Tony Brooks]

13 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Thank you.

That makes your situation quite a bit clearer.

As I understand it this offset was sometimes done to create a greater walkway down one side of the engine, though in a boat I saw which had a "traditional" style engine room forward of a back cabin, I thought it looked decidedly odd.

The idea of "spider joints" being driven at a considerable angle has always concerned me, particularly if they are also taking the thrust, and I'm guessing the problem you are trying to solve may well be related to that in some way or another.

I agree that driving Hooks/universal joints through a large angle plus expecting them to take thrust is asking for trouble.

A thought, if the problem relates to vibration are the joints correctly aligned to each other AND used in pairs. If not cyclic vibration is likely to ensue.

My choice would be a thrust bearing and CV joints as per Aquadrive but it may need two sets and an intermediate support bearing to drive through a really large angle but the angle could perhaps be reduced by increasing the distance between the joints.

I agree getting access to the starter is important   despite the cost - especially if you intend this to be a long term boat.

The hydraulic drive suggestion. It would work and in some ways may prove to be the best solution but despite modern technology it will always be less efficient than a shaft drive (greater fuel consumption) and if the fitter gets the pipe sizes wrong can  lead to overheated oil.

[dmr]

Our engine is slightly offset, it gives a bigger walkway and also likely helps with the ballasting as most of the heavy stuff is on t'other side of boat. Offset is only a few inches and not many people notice it. How long is the shaft and how big is the angle? How big is the offset?  Confirm that there are only two Hookes joints, and that the engine is parallel with the prop (tail) shaft.  Just out of interest, Hookes joints can also get very unhappy if working over a very small angle.   Another "radical" solution would be to use drive belts, its been done before, but as you say the starter is a big issue. Rather than moving the engine forward could you move it to the centreline?

If you want to be really radicle, go hybrid, big generator on the engine that doubles as a starter, and an electric motor to drive the boat (just following forum tradition here of unhelpful suggestions )

..............Dave

[frahkn]

39 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I agree that driving Hooks/universal joints through a large angle plus expecting them to take thrust is asking for trouble.

A thought, if the problem relates to vibration are the joints correctly aligned to each other AND used in pairs. If not cyclic vibration is likely to ensue.

My choice would be a thrust bearing and CV joints as per Aquadrive but it may need two sets and an intermediate support bearing to drive through a really large angle but the angle could perhaps be reduced by increasing the distance between the joints.

I agree getting access to the starter is important   despite the cost - especially if you intend this to be a long term boat.

The hydraulic drive suggestion. It would work and in some ways may prove to be the best solution but despite modern technology it will always be less efficient than a shaft drive (greater fuel consumption) and if the fitter gets the pipe sizes wrong can  lead to overheated oil.

It was suggested to me, albeit tongue in cheek, that I should have a hatch cut (below the waterline) in the side to reach the starter.

I appreciate that this would be a clumsy solution as the boat would have to be partly out of the water to change the starter but would it be possible to keep such a hatch watertight?

I've never seen a boat with such a hatch but then I have never seen another boat with the engine at the foot of the bath. Moving the engine would be both expensive and inconvenient.

[bizzard]

Or maybe just swing the engine round a bit at its rear end only leaving its front end in the same spot. If swung to point the gearbox output flange at the propshaft the angles of the two Universal-spider joints would be much lessened.  A full on overhead photograph of the present arrangement would be good, like they do on the telly of snooker tables when there's been a foul and the balls are being replaced.

[dmr]

Right, is this a modern engine from Beta or whatever, or a BMC with a Lucas starter motor?   Modern starter motors are usually very reliable. Just how difficult is it to get to, if somebody knew their stuff could it be done "by feel", maybe with a special tool or two? Otherwise can you partially lift the engine to get to the starter motor without wrecking the boat? if so you could do a precautionary starter motor replacement every ten thousand hours to avoid an unexpected breakdown.

If you have a hatch in the side of the boat then you would need to come out of the water to replace the starter which is not convenient, if you go that route I would cut the hole, do the starter, then weld the panel back into the side. A skilled boatyard man will cut and weld surprisingly quickly.

...............Dave

7 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Or maybe just swing the engine round a bit at its rear end only leaving its front end in the same spot. If swung to point the gearbox output flange at the propshaft the angles of the two Universal-spider joints would be much lessened.  A full on overhead photograph of the present arrangement would be good, like they do on the telly of snooker tables when there's been a foul and the balls are being replaced.

 

Wouldn't that result in a different angle of operation of the two joints??????

.............Dave

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, frahkn said:

The off-set engine also makes the starter motor inaccessible - well it looks inaccessible and the boatyard say it is.

Not ideal, but is this actually a problem? Rather than getting involved in major changes to the engine installation and all the boat fitting around it, how difficult would it be to temporarily unbolt the engine and move it enough to remove the starter for repair on the rare occasion this may be necessary. At least with a couple of UJ's in the line you won't have to bother with precise engine alignment when putting it back.

[Bee]

UJ's can and do wear out in road vehicles and as anybody with an old front wheel drive car knows CV joints do as well, they are a common item to sell in motor shops. So long as both ends of the shaft are held in plummer blocks or something and the gearbox and stern gear is not being worn away I would just accept occasional replacement of joints.

[frahkn]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

Right, is this a modern engine from Beta or whatever, or a BMC with a Lucas starter motor?   Modern starter motors are usually very reliable. Just how difficult is it to get to, if somebody knew their stuff could it be done "by feel", maybe with a special tool or two? Otherwise can you partially lift the engine to get to the starter motor without wrecking the boat? if so you could do a precautionary starter motor replacement every ten thousand hours to avoid an unexpected breakdown.

If you have a hatch in the side of the boat then you would need to come out of the water to replace the starter which is not convenient, if you go that route I would cut the hole, do the starter, then weld the panel back into the side. A skilled boatyard man will cut and weld surprisingly quickly.

...............Dave

 

Wouldn't that result in a different angle of operation of the two joints??????

.............Dave

It's a Beta 43 with, I assume, the original starter.

1 hour ago, bizzard said:

Or maybe just swing the engine round a bit at its rear end only leaving its front end in the same spot. If swung to point the gearbox output flange at the propshaft the angles of the two Universal-spider joints would be much lessened.  A full on overhead photograph of the present arrangement would be good, like they do on the telly of snooker tables when there's been a foul and the balls are being replaced.

I'm not good at posting pictures but I'll try to sort some out.

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

Thank you.

That makes your situation quite a bit clearer.

As I understand it this offset was sometimes done to create a greater walkway down one side of the engine, though in a boat I saw which had a "traditional" style engine room forward of a back cabin, I thought it looked decidedly odd.

The idea of "spider joints" being driven at a considerable angle has always concerned me, particularly if they are also taking the thrust, and I'm guessing the problem you are trying to solve may well be related to that in some way or another.

One of the hire boats that use to run from Wilton had a set up like that, but the engine was well forward on the stern in an engine room

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I agree that driving Hooks/universal joints through a large angle plus expecting them to take thrust is asking for trouble.

A thought, if the problem relates to vibration are the joints correctly aligned to each other AND used in pairs. If not cyclic vibration is likely to ensue.

My choice would be a thrust bearing and CV joints as per Aquadrive but it may need two sets and an intermediate support bearing to drive through a really large angle but the angle could perhaps be reduced by increasing the distance between the joints.

I agree getting access to the starter is important   despite the cost - especially if you intend this to be a long term boat.

The hydraulic drive suggestion. It would work and in some ways may prove to be the best solution but despite modern technology it will always be less efficient than a shaft drive (greater fuel consumption) and if the fitter gets the pipe sizes wrong can  lead to overheated oil.

Picture 47 here 

 

[frahkn]

I have attempted to post 3 photos, they are not the clearest but are all I have (not on the boat at the moment).

[alan_fincher]

Good grief!

I now fully understand why the word "expensive" has appeared repeatedly.

I've seen some unusual engine installations, but.............................................

[bizzard]

That's ridiculous, tucked away like that, Off set because of the toilet? No wonder you were a bit cagey to discuss it. The only advantage that I can see is that you can dip the engine oil while sitting on the bog with paper to hand to wipe the stick.  It might be worth removing the toilet and re fitting the engine in the middle. Re-site the bog somewhere else. A nice simple commode set up in the lounge for example. .

[alan_fincher]

2 minutes ago, bizzard said:

The only advantage that I can see is that you can dip the engine oil while sitting on the bog with paper to hand to wipe the stick. 

 

I'll admit that "Sickle", with the standard  Porta Potti in the engine room arrangement, so common on working boats, has a loo positioned not that much differently with respect to the engine.

.....The only difference in our case being that it's the engine in the middle, and the loo that is at the side of the boat

[bizzard]

I think we need a picture or complete scale plan of the boats internal layout. Perhaps to help rearrange things to make things workable and accessable.

[dmr]

We have a Beta JD3 but I have sometimes fancied a Kelvin K2, but after thinking this through the only sensible way to do this would be to sell the boat and start afresh.

If you don't like this engine arrangement then getting a different boat might be an option. There will be some people who will find this engine arrangement really attractive, such as those who want to live in a marina and only move the boat once every year or two. Whatever you do is going to be a big job which is unlikely to pay for itself, the engine is tucked away to create maximum living space so if you move it then you will loose space. Is there an actual serious problem apart from poor access for maintainance?

.......Dave

[bizzard]

I expect the boat only has a shower cubicle so no room for a toilet in it. When I fitted out my boat, being a short boat, I only wanted a shower cubicle. I fitted a hinged board false floor which hinged down upon the shower tray. On this I placed and use my Porta Pottie 365.  I just lift it out, lift up the hinged board which sticks to the side to keep it up with Velcro to have a shower. Takes seconds to arrange.  A U shaped shower curtain slides and surrounds it which protects the toilet roll from getting wet on the other side.

[BruceinSanity]

Looks like it was designed by Alec Issigonis 

Reminds me of the story of one of the first Minis imported to Oz. When it had a problem and the owner took it to a garage, the guy looked under the bonnet, came out and said "It's not a bloody mechanic you need, mate, it's a bloody watch-bloody-maker!"

[Boater Sam]

Thinking laterally, a starter that runs in reverse and make it fit over the gearbox, back to front? Yes, they do exist.

Have you spoken to Beta? They may have an answer.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Boater Sam
added more

[dmr]

28 minutes ago, BruceinSanity said:

Looks like it was designed by Alec Issigonis 

Reminds me of the story of one of the first Minis imported to Oz. When it had a problem and the owner took it to a garage, the guy looked under the bonnet, came out and said "It's not a bloody mechanic you need, mate, it's a bloody watch-bloody-maker!"

and when the mini first came out a lot of mechanics ridiculed it because it was obviously impossible to change the clutch without taking the engine out, but then before long clutch replacements were routinely done in situ and didn't actually take that long. Maybe after the initial shock it will be possible to take that starter motor out. 

Wanted: small young flexible engineer, must have long arms and small hands.

...........Dave

[Boater Sam]

We got lots of practice changing clutches ( and idler gears ) due to the oil leaks from the crankshaft oil hole into the housing. Deva metal thankfully solved that or the Italian Job would never have worked.

[mrsmelly]

26 minutes ago, dmr said:

and when the mini first came out a lot of mechanics ridiculed it because it was obviously impossible to change the clutch without taking the engine out, but then before long clutch replacements were routinely done in situ and didn't actually take that long. Maybe after the initial shock it will be possible to take that starter motor out. 

Wanted: small young flexible engineer, must have long arms and small hands.

...........Dave

If its just the starter motor removal replacement thats the issue as they very rarely cause a problem then i would do what  the Royal navy do. We went into dry dock and a bloomin huge hole was cut into the hull side when the engines needed taking out. The engines were then replaced and the steel VERY neatly welded back in place. On something as tiny as a canal boat this could be done fairly easily and without major cost if its not being done often such as at every service?

[bizzard]

4 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

If its just the starter motor removal replacement thats the issue as they very rarely cause a problem then i would do what  the Royal navy do. We went into dry dock and a bloomin huge hole was cut into the hull side when the engines needed taking out. The engines were then replaced and the steel VERY neatly welded back in place. On something as tiny as a canal boat this could be done fairly easily and without major cost if its not being done often such as at every service?

This is done with trawlers too, The Dutch are good at it, Rotterdam is a favourite. They use a large forklift truck with long forks to lift the engines in and out. Only trouble is if the bloke who cuts the hole has a mental measuring blockage, transferring measurements from inside to outside and keeps having pot shots at it all over the shop until he finds the starter. The boat can end up like a patchwork quilt.