Moving on red flags

[blackrose]

 

Or just staying put if you have to think about the situation that much.

Yes, that would also be part of one's assessment. But in certain situations staying put might actually be more hazardous than moving! I've been in one such situation myself.

We all think about things differently and to different degrees and as I said, there's nothing wrong with putting some thought into these situations. I personally spend a lot of time thinking about whether to move on rivers and on tidal waters and so far touch wood that approach has never failed me. 

Perhaps the difference in our approaches isn't simply due to a different outlook? You must appreciate that moving a big and relatively under-powered 30 tonne steel boat on fast flowing water probably requires a tad more thinking about than moving a powerful relatively light GRP boat which is purpose built for the job. 

Edited March 12, 2018 by blackrose

[blackrose]

 

You could be world's best boat handler but if your boat is physically incapable of handling the conditions, it won't change the laws of physics - which remain remarkably consistent. 

In other words, the decision to go ahead anyway on red boards, is probably only applicable to those who have a suitable boat for the conditions. Not a narrowboat, nor a fat narrowboat.

I've been out on red boards and on tidal waters on my fat narrowboat many times and it's been perfectly fine. I know what my boat can do and what it can't and I also know my own level of skill, and contrary to what you say it does make a significant difference. Barges and narrow boats have been used commercially in tricky conditions by skilled boat handlers for generations.   

[Paul C]

 

I've been out on red boards and on tidal waters on my fat narrowboat many times and it's been perfectly fine. I know what my boat can do and what it can't and I also know my own level of skill, and contrary to what you say it does make a significant difference. Barges and narrow boats have been used commercially in tricky conditions by skilled boat handlers for generations.   

I didn't say it doesn't make a significant difference. I said it won't change the laws of physics.

[nicknorman]

 

I know this must have been covered before but can't find anything. 

I moved my boat a couple of days ago while the Nene was still on red flag/no navigation signs. But the reach I was on was fine, its just that the EA notices cover the whole river or at least large stretches of it. 

I was told by the moorings manager that it was my choice to move or not but if I did I'd be uninsured. Is that right? I should know this. I've moved on yellow and red boards on the Thames before, taking advice from the lock keepers, but I didn't realise I wasn't insured. 

As has been said, you need to check the specific terms of your insurance. It does irritate me when people say “ Oh you won’t be insured if you do x” when they have no idea what the terms of your insurance are. Same as when people say “Ooh I could possibly due that due to data protection/health and safety/computer says no/whatever other invented excuse I can think of”.

We struggled to get into Diglis lock last year because the river had gone into flood. A “manager” who happened to be interfering there, berated the lockkeeper for letting us into the lock despite the fact that there was nothing to tie up to below the lock. To keep the peace we agreed to tie up above the lock. After the muppet manager had poked off, we went past the weir and exited the river onto the W&B, which was a complete non-event.

[blackrose]

 

I didn't say it doesn't make a significant difference. I said it won't change the laws of physics.

Yes, but your main point was that the laws of physics are the main factor rather than the skill of the person or people moving the boat. That's arguable I suppose, but the implication was that even the world's best boat handler shouldn't take a narrowboat or fat narrowboat onto rivers on red board. I disagree with that because someone who knows how to handle that sort of boat can work with the laws of physics to achieve the desired outcome.   

Edited March 12, 2018 by blackrose

[ditchcrawler]

 

Yes, but your main point was that the laws of physics are the main factor rather than the skill of the person or people moving the boat. That's arguable I suppose, but the implication was that even the world's best boat handler shouldn't take a narrowboat or fat narrowboat onto rivers on red board. I disagree with that because someone who knows how to handle that sort of boat can work with the laws of physics to achieve the desired outcome.   

I thought this was about insurance, Surly if you go out on red board and have to claim on your insurance you have just proven that you were not competent or the boat was not capable of navigating in the conditions prevailing at the time.

Edit

If you complete the Journey without incident than insurance is irrelevant .

Edited March 12, 2018 by ditchcrawler

[blackrose]

 

I thought this was about insurance, Surly if you go out on red board and have to claim on your insurance you have just proven that you were not competent or the boat was not capable of navigating in the conditions prevailing at the time.

Edit

If you complete the Journey without incident than insurance is irrelevant .

No, I don't think that's true at all. Anyone can be subject to misfortune or have an accident, even the most competent skipper. 

Do you consider yourself to be a competent driver? Have you ever had a car accident? 

 

Anyway, unless I've missed it (which is always possible) I can't see anything in my insurance policy specifically excluding taking the boat out in challenging conditions. There is a Negligence clause which I can't quite make out if is referring to my own botched repairs, or whether that's general negligence referring to anything? The bold is all mine.

Territorial Scope: Ashore or afloat on inland non tidal waters and interconnecting tidal waterways of the UK, the Broads and the river Thames not seaward of the Thames Barrier.

We will pay for loss of or damage to “Black Rose” directly caused by: • External accidental means. • Fire, explosions, self ignition and lightning. • Malicious acts of third parties. • Accidents in loading, discharging and handling stores, equipment, machinery, or fuel. • Latent defects in the hull or machinery. • Theft of “Black Rose” or her boat(s), or outboard motor(s) provided it is securely locked to “Black Rose” or her boat(s) by an anti theft device in addition to its normal method of attachment, or, following upon forcible entry into “Black Rose” or place of storage, theft of machinery including outboard motor(s), or equipment. • Negligence, excluding, ° the cost of making good any defect in repair, maintenance or alteration carried out for your account resulting from either negligence or breach of contract. ° the cost and expense of remedying a fault or error in design or construction or attributable to betterment or alteration in design or construction. ° theft or pilferage. • The expense of sighting the bottom after stranding, if reasonably incurred specially for that purpose, even if no damage be found.

We will not pay loss or damage claims for: • Wear and tear, depreciation, deterioration, and mildew. • Any expense incurred in treating the consequences of osmotic action. • Loss of or damage to motor and electrical machinery and batteries and their connections (with the exception of the shaft and propeller) and metalling unless caused by “Black Rose” being stranded, sinking from a peril insured against, burnt, on fire or in contact with any external substance (ice included) other than water or by malicious damage or by theft following upon forcible entry to “Black Rose”or store, or while being removed from or placed in “Black Rose”, or by fire in store ashore, or by frost (provided all manufacturers recommendations complied with) or by the sudden accidental incursion of water into “Black Rose”, or by dropping off or falling overboard of outboard motors. • Loss or damage to consumable stores, fishing gear or moorings. • Loss of or damage to protective covers split by the wind. • The cost of repairing, replacing or renewing any defective part in consequence of a latent defect. We will not pay claims by third party for: • Accidents whilst “Black Rose” is in transit by road. • Accidents to or illness of any other person employed in any capacity by you or anybody to whom this policy extends in, on or about or in connection with “Black Rose”. • The legal costs of defending any criminal prosecution or the payment of any fines or other penalties. We will not pay personal effects claims for: • Wear, tear, gradual deterioration, damp, mould, mildew, moth, vermin, mechanical derangement and electrical breakdown. • Breakage of articles of a brittle nature unless caused by “Black Rose” stranding, sinking, fire, collision, stress of weather, burglars or thieves. • Loss of cash, travellers cheques, credit cards, jewellery, antiques, works of art, laptop computers or mobile phones. General Exceptions: We will not pay for: • Claims whilst out on hire, or charter, or used for other than private purposes. • Claims arising from capture, seizure, arrest, restraint or detainment, and the consequences thereof or of any attempt thereat; or from the consequences of hostilities or warlike operations, whether there be a declaration of war or not; but this clause does not exclude collision, contact with any fixed or floating object (other than a mine or torpedo), stranding, heavy weather or fire unless caused directly (and independently of the nature of the voyage or service in which “Black Rose” is concerned or, in the case of a collision, any other vessel involved therein, is performing) by a hostile act by or against a belligerent power; and for the purpose of this clause "power" includes any authority maintaining naval, military or air forces in association with a power. • Claims arising from the consequences of civil war, revolution, rebellion, insurrection, or civil strife arising therefrom. • Warranted free of loss damage or expense or any legal liability of whatsoever nature directly or indirectly caused by or contributed to by or arising from ionising radiations from or contamination by radioactivity from any nuclear fuel or from any nuclear waste from the combustion of nuclear fuel or the radioactive, toxic, explosive or other hazardous properties of any explosive nuclear assembly or nuclear component thereof. • Loss, destruction or damage occasioned by pressure waves caused by aircraft or other aerial devices travelling at sonic or supersonic speeds. • Claims arising from your reckless actions, or those to whom this policy extends. • The first £300 of any claim.

 

Edited March 12, 2018 by blackrose

[ditchcrawler]

 

No, I don't think that's true at all. Anyone can be subject to misfortune or have an accident, even the most competent skipper. 

Do you consider yourself to be a competent driver? Have you ever had a car accident? 

Yes I do but if a do drive to fast for the conditions then it will show I am not as competent as I thought. I wonder how the car drivers who's cars were flooded as they drove through the flooded roads in Welney Norfolk. https://www.klfm967.co.uk/news/klfm-news/2487673/norfolk-road-closed-again-because-of-flooding/

[blackrose]

 

Yes I do but if a do drive to fast for the conditions then it will show I am not as competent as I thought. I wonder how the car drivers who's cars were flooded as they drove through the flooded roads in Welney Norfolk. https://www.klfm967.co.uk/news/klfm-news/2487673/norfolk-road-closed-again-because-of-flooding/

You don't need to drive too fast to have a road accident.

[ditchcrawler]

 

You don't need to drive too fast to have a road accident.

I was trying to relate it to you boating in conditions when advised by the navigation authority not to, not when you are out on the river on a nice summers afternoon

[blackrose]

 

I was trying to relate it to you boating in conditions when advised by the navigation authority not to, not when you are out on the river on a nice summers afternoon

Yes, I was aware of what you were trying to relate it to, but I was relating it to your comments above about those having accidents proving themselves to be incompetent. Anyway, if one's insurance policy doesn't have exclusions for taking boats out on red boards then the point is moot.

Edited March 12, 2018 by blackrose

[ditchcrawler]

 

Yes, I was aware of what you were trying to relate it to, but I was relating it to your comments above about those having accidents proving themselves to be incompetent. Anyway, if one's insurance policy doesn't have exclusions for taking boats out on red boards then the point is moot.

O I couldn't agree more. which if you go back a long way in this thread you will find where I said that the lock keepers don't now the details of your insurance and that in "May" make in void. Only the boater and the insurance company will know. I hate it when people make blanket statements about things and what you can and cant do.

[MartinC]

 

No, I don't think that's true at all. Anyone can be subject to misfortune or have an accident, even the most competent skipper. 

Do you consider yourself to be a competent driver? Have you ever had a car accident? 

 

Anyway, unless I've missed it (which is always possible) I can't see anything in my insurance policy specifically excluding taking the boat out in challenging conditions. There is a Negligence clause which I can't quite make out if is referring to my own botched repairs, or whether that's general negligence referring to anything? The bold is all mine.

Territorial Scope: Ashore or afloat on inland non tidal waters and interconnecting tidal waterways of the UK, the Broads and the river Thames not seaward of the Thames Barrier.

We will pay for loss of or damage to “Black Rose” directly caused by: • External accidental means. • Fire, explosions, self ignition and lightning. • Malicious acts of third parties. • Accidents in loading, discharging and handling stores, equipment, machinery, or fuel. • Latent defects in the hull or machinery. • Theft of “Black Rose” or her boat(s), or outboard motor(s) provided it is securely locked to “Black Rose” or her boat(s) by an anti theft device in addition to its normal method of attachment, or, following upon forcible entry into “Black Rose” or place of storage, theft of machinery including outboard motor(s), or equipment. • Negligence, excluding, ° the cost of making good any defect in repair, maintenance or alteration carried out for your account resulting from either negligence or breach of contract. ° the cost and expense of remedying a fault or error in design or construction or attributable to betterment or alteration in design or construction. ° theft or pilferage. • The expense of sighting the bottom after stranding, if reasonably incurred specially for that purpose, even if no damage be found.

We will not pay loss or damage claims for: • Wear and tear, depreciation, deterioration, and mildew. • Any expense incurred in treating the consequences of osmotic action. • Loss of or damage to motor and electrical machinery and batteries and their connections (with the exception of the shaft and propeller) and metalling unless caused by “Black Rose” being stranded, sinking from a peril insured against, burnt, on fire or in contact with any external substance (ice included) other than water or by malicious damage or by theft following upon forcible entry to “Black Rose”or store, or while being removed from or placed in “Black Rose”, or by fire in store ashore, or by frost (provided all manufacturers recommendations complied with) or by the sudden accidental incursion of water into “Black Rose”, or by dropping off or falling overboard of outboard motors. • Loss or damage to consumable stores, fishing gear or moorings. • Loss of or damage to protective covers split by the wind. • The cost of repairing, replacing or renewing any defective part in consequence of a latent defect. We will not pay claims by third party for: • Accidents whilst “Black Rose” is in transit by road. • Accidents to or illness of any other person employed in any capacity by you or anybody to whom this policy extends in, on or about or in connection with “Black Rose”. • The legal costs of defending any criminal prosecution or the payment of any fines or other penalties. We will not pay personal effects claims for: • Wear, tear, gradual deterioration, damp, mould, mildew, moth, vermin, mechanical derangement and electrical breakdown. • Breakage of articles of a brittle nature unless caused by “Black Rose” stranding, sinking, fire, collision, stress of weather, burglars or thieves. • Loss of cash, travellers cheques, credit cards, jewellery, antiques, works of art, laptop computers or mobile phones. General Exceptions: We will not pay for: • Claims whilst out on hire, or charter, or used for other than private purposes. • Claims arising from capture, seizure, arrest, restraint or detainment, and the consequences thereof or of any attempt thereat; or from the consequences of hostilities or warlike operations, whether there be a declaration of war or not; but this clause does not exclude collision, contact with any fixed or floating object (other than a mine or torpedo), stranding, heavy weather or fire unless caused directly (and independently of the nature of the voyage or service in which “Black Rose” is concerned or, in the case of a collision, any other vessel involved therein, is performing) by a hostile act by or against a belligerent power; and for the purpose of this clause "power" includes any authority maintaining naval, military or air forces in association with a power. • Claims arising from the consequences of civil war, revolution, rebellion, insurrection, or civil strife arising therefrom. • Warranted free of loss damage or expense or any legal liability of whatsoever nature directly or indirectly caused by or contributed to by or arising from ionising radiations from or contamination by radioactivity from any nuclear fuel or from any nuclear waste from the combustion of nuclear fuel or the radioactive, toxic, explosive or other hazardous properties of any explosive nuclear assembly or nuclear component thereof. • Loss, destruction or damage occasioned by pressure waves caused by aircraft or other aerial devices travelling at sonic or supersonic speeds. • Claims arising from your reckless actions, or those to whom this policy extends. • The first £300 of any claim.

 

This looks like a Craftinsure policy. The relevant bit is the penultimate item under General Exceptions "Claims arising from your reckless actions...".

"reckless" disregarding the consequences or danger, lacking caution, rash (Oxford Dictionary). Roll in the legal fees!

[matty40s]

OK

We have currently been reported by a local busybody as overstaying in our present location. So CRT posted a notice on our boat.

The cut ahead was iced up, as was the Loughborough cut before our 14 days were up. The river went into flood very quickly and has stayed in flood, up and down for a few days and now getting ready to top the banks everywhere. Some of the local roads are under and more will go overnight.

I had a very pleasant conversation with the local enforcement officer, who, as anyone who knows him is a very river savvy chap and knows his patch.  He did suggest moving a short distance but agreed that  as the river was in flood it was up to us. He did say there was a 'history' with where we are moored....I believe a good search of the archive will reveal this .

I did lose half a days work to come home early to move, but as Sileby, Mountsorrel and Barrow Deep were all in the red, didn't.

The traffic light at Barrow was on green when the river was on red boards.. even the EA pilling lock gauge was showing local flooding risk. 

Don't move on red boards unless you have to and know the river very well. There are certain sections of the Soar are do-able in certain red levels, now is not one of them.

[Rickent]

Please don't move Matty, your eco fans are keeping me warm.

[Momac]

3 hours ago, blackrose said:

Anyway, unless I've missed it (which is always possible) I can't see anything in my insurance policy specifically excluding taking the boat out in challenging conditions. 

• Claims arising from your reckless actions

 

I expect that  exclusion is not unusual. You always have to read the policy and exclusions all the way to the end.

Insurers could say going past a red light was reckless. 

[Movin' on]

Certainly if you do it on the Severn which I have the Lockies (used to) make you sign a waiver to say you accept you are cruising against advice and therefore by implication in-insured - I also got caught out on the Soar once and at a lock BW told me to stop cruising but couldn't offer a safe mooring suggestion so I cruised on to Zouch again without their blessing.

To be avoided............

[Naughty Cal]

29 minutes ago, Halsey said:

Certainly if you do it on the Severn which I have the Lockies (used to) make you sign a waiver to say you accept you are cruising against advice and therefore by implication in-insured - I also got caught out on the Soar once and at a lock BW told me to stop cruising but couldn't offer a safe mooring suggestion so I cruised on to Zouch again without their blessing.

To be avoided............

Yet we had CRT staff let us out onto a flooded Trent with some 13ft of fresh on the river. 

That said I doubt they would have let a narrowboat out in those conditions.

[Bee]

Funnily enough I think narrowboats actually handle quite well compared to other boats, getting sideways across the stream is obviously going to be difficult to get out of but if you bung a narrowboat into reverse it normally holds back in a straightish line wheras a good many cruisers with not much under the water and a bit of a saucer shaped profile can be a bit like the waltzer at the fair - or perhaps its the way I steer things.

[mrsmelly]

5 minutes ago, Bee said:

Funnily enough I think narrowboats actually handle quite well compared to other boats, getting sideways across the stream is obviously going to be difficult to get out of but if you bung a narrowboat into reverse it normally holds back in a straightish line wheras a good many cruisers with not much under the water and a bit of a saucer shaped profile can be a bit like the waltzer at the fair - or perhaps its the way I steer things.

Its the way you steer things 

[Bee]

8 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Its the way you steer things 

Damn. thought it might be.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Bee

[Jess--]

7 minutes ago, Bee said:

Funnily enough I think narrowboats actually handle quite well compared to other boats, getting sideways across the stream is obviously going to be difficult to get out of but if you bung a narrowboat into reverse it normally holds back in a straightish line wheras a good many cruisers with not much under the water and a bit of a saucer shaped profile can be a bit like the waltzer at the fair - or perhaps its the way I steer things.

a lot of how a narrowboat handles will be down to the underwater shape of it, comparing my own boat to a friends (similar length engine size etc) we have huge differences between them in handling, theirs will stay in a straight line while you make a cup of tea, mine might stay straight while you scratch your nose (whether it goes left or right depends on how full the toilet is). this gives the impression that their boat is a lot more stable than mine but that instability translates as vastly improved turning ability, where my boat can turn in about 3 feet more than its length without having to change out of forward gear theirs will need to do a 3-5 point turn

 

[Dr Bob]

17 minutes ago, Jess-- said:

theirs will need to do a 3-5 point turn

 

That's mine then!

[stagedamager]

We went in and out of Billing Marina on red flags. The issue being the EA see the Nene as one complete river, so what will be flooded in Peterborough will be fine in Northampton. Both ways were absolutely fine, levels and flow rates were normal. Somewhere on here is a photo o me doing it, i'll try and find it! I think our insurance would have been invalid but I was willing to take that risk. Getting out of Billing to go upstream with a 70ft breasted pair is somewhat interesting though.....

 

Dan

[mrsmelly]

9 hours ago, stagedamager said:

We went in and out of Billing Marina on red flags. The issue being the EA see the Nene as one complete river, so what will be flooded in Peterborough will be fine in Northampton. Both ways were absolutely fine, levels and flow rates were normal. Somewhere on here is a photo o me doing it, i'll try and find it! I think our insurance would have been invalid but I was willing to take that risk. Getting out of Billing to go upstream with a 70ft breasted pair is somewhat interesting though.....

 

Dan

Oy Dan. Please start bailing the Trent out I am trying to get to you