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blackrose

Moving on red flags

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I know this must have been covered before but can't find anything. 

I moved my boat a couple of days ago while the Nene was still on red flag/no navigation signs. But the reach I was on was fine, its just that the EA notices cover the whole river or at least large stretches of it. 

I was told by the moorings manager that it was my choice to move or not but if I did I'd be uninsured. Is that right? I should know this. I've moved on yellow and red boards on the Thames before, taking advice from the lock keepers, but I didn't realise I wasn't insured. 

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Im guessing you get the strong stream alerts ?

My understanding was that if you ignore EA's advice to stay put then its not that you are not insured as such just that you are negligent ?(for lack of better word) in carrying on regardless  so unlikely to get a pay out. The narrowboat that sunk at Ditchford weir would know the answer to that question I would think. I dont know if they got paid or not.
 



 

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We have been warned on the Thames by lockies , verbally and by leaflet that our insurance  would not cover us if we disregarded the red bosrds .Bunny .

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But Blackrose said that the section he was on was fine; this means that he had assessed the river conditions and, as he is an experienced boater, I can't see that he was being negligent.

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4 minutes ago, Athy said:

But Blackrose said that the section he was on was fine; this means that he had assessed the river conditions and, as he is an experienced boater, I can't see that he was being negligent.

I would suggest (knowing that insurers will take every possible wriggle to avoid paying out) that if it came down to it, they would take the 'word' of the professional navigation authority as overriding the assessment of a boater.

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C&RT pass the responsibility for the decision to the boater, maybe the EA do the same ?

 

1. The Boat Licence does not give you any priority of passage on the Waterway. You must follow the
directions of our local people who may decide which boats have priority.


2. You are responsible for assessing whether it is safe to use the Waterway in flood or strong stream
conditions.
Our Waterway offices may be able to assist. The most recent flood warnings can be
obtained from the Environment Agency, either on the internet at http://www.environmentagency.
gov.uk/ or by telephone on 0845 988 1188 (minicom 0845 602 6340).

 

I would still suggest that going against the advice of the 'experts' is not likely to go well.

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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31 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

Turning the question around, what if there is no warning from EA and boater decides to go and sinks, are EA responsible?

No.

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56 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

Turning the question around, what if there is no warning from EA and boater decides to go and sinks, are EA responsible?

There's always a river navigation status given. Reaches of the Thames are either on red, yellow or no stream warnings for example.

http://riverconditions.environment-agency.gov.uk/

Unfortunately the status of other rivers are not as detailed as the Thames, but there's always a navigation status I believe.

 

Edited by blackrose

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I came to Shardlow yesterday to drop in to the Trent. There are two traffic lights here one for the Soar and one for the Trent. Both lights are at red and a large board says DO NOT PROCEED. I went further down to have a look at the lock and its well into the red. I know this stretch well and I have no problem here at this depth and used to do it on red at this level however as an older more boring person than previously no way would I do it again till its in the yellow where it says PROCEED with caution. I would guess that as a holder of three different boatmasters licences and well experienced that would go against my using the boat in these conditions as I would suggest the powers that be would think I was reckless rather than just unluckly like an inexperienced boater and therefore I reckon I wouldnt get a penny if my boat was lost. Therefore I am staying at the pub mooring.

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14 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I came to Shardlow yesterday to drop in to the Trent. There are two traffic lights here one for the Soar and one for the Trent. Both lights are at red and a large board says DO NOT PROCEED. I went further down to have a look at the lock and its well into the red. I know this stretch well and I have no problem here at this depth and used to do it on red at this level however as an older more boring person than previously no way would I do it again till its in the yellow where it says PROCEED with caution. I would guess that as a holder of three different boatmasters licences and well experienced that would go against my using the boat in these conditions as I would suggest the powers that be would think I was reckless rather than just unluckly like an inexperienced boater and therefore I reckon I wouldnt get a penny if my boat was lost. Therefore I am staying at the pub mooring.

I would stay there even if the lights were green - 4 pubs in the vicinity 2 in staggering distance. I love Shardlow.

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Just now, Midnight said:

I would stay there even if the lights were green - 4 pubs in the vicinity 2 in staggering distance. I love Shardlow.

That's what he intends. Summer cruise =stop outside pub for 7 months, then back to marina:)

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5 minutes ago, Midnight said:

I would stay there even if the lights were green - 4 pubs in the vicinity 2 in staggering distance. I love Shardlow.

Me too and I am on the bit straight outside the New Inn and the Malt shovel both less than 100 feet away :) they were good yesterday and they start breakfast in ten minutes so we can get in for breakfast and out again before pub opens properly for the dreaded Mothers day crowd!!

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Mothers Day! Our three sons have forwarded funds to me to take their mum out today. Nice thought, brought them up proper and good. However I have told all three that no way am I going anywhere near a foodie pub today. They understand.

Back on topic. We spent sometime in Shardlow. To be honest, I was disappointed. Don't know why but I was. Found the bar in the caravan site to be okay. Didn't go into the warehouse pub. The shovel and the New Inn didn't impress. I am usually easily impressed with pubs. Anyway, that's my opinion. The Trent section was our first 'bit' of river and Nightwatch thoroughly enjoyed stretching its enginerevs. I, as a passenger, was very pleased it did so. Cleared a few cobwebs out from the exhaust and innards. 

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2 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

Mothers Day! Our three sons have forwarded funds to me to take their mum out today. Nice thought, brought them up proper and good. However I have told all three that no way am I going anywhere near a foodie pub today. They understand.

Back on topic. We spent sometime in Shardlow. To be honest, I was disappointed. Don't know why but I was. Found the bar in the caravan site to be okay. Didn't go into the warehouse pub. The shovel and the New Inn didn't impress. I am usually easily impressed with pubs. Anyway, that's my opinion. The Trent section was our first 'bit' of river and Nightwatch thoroughly enjoyed stretching its enginerevs. I, as a passenger, was very pleased it did so. Cleared a few cobwebs out from the exhaust and innards. 

Trouble with pubs of course is they are only as good as whoever you meet at the counter. New Inn was fine last night very busy and very cheap with edible food. As we have said its mothers day today so pubs are generaly a no go area. The grannies will be coming in with cobwebs still on them from last year when they were allowed out!! Mothers day is THeeee worst day to own any sort of pub or eatery trust me I know.

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3 hours ago, Bunny said:

We have been warned on the Thames by lockies , verbally and by leaflet that our insurance  would not cover us if we disregarded the red bosrds .Bunny .

I've had the opposite experience. Thames lockies telling me that it wasn't a serious red and I was fine to proceed to the next lock with caution.

Edited by blackrose

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3 hours ago, Athy said:

But Blackrose said that the section he was on was fine; this means that he had assessed the river conditions and, as he is an experienced boater, I can't see that he was being negligent.

If you navigate whilst the river is in ‘do not’ and all goes well then no problem, however if you got into problems eg ‘engine failures’ and ended up going over a weir I struggle to see how you would convince the insurance company you made the correct call in proceeding on you journey.  It’s a bit like doing your own gas, no one will question your competence until something goes badly wrong.

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A lot of whether to move on red comes down to your level of experience and your knowledge of the section to be navigated but also the state of your craft.

under normal conditions I would trust my boat to withstand a fair amount but as it stands right now I wouldn't use it with any type of flow as I suspect that my drive plate is on it's way out (to be replaced shortly) 

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No red flags or boards or gauges to look at this end of the Trent. You make your own decisions as to whether or not you are happy with the river conditions and take some responsibility for your choices.

Plenty of water in the river today. Would have been a nice day out there.

20180311_105805.jpg

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If you have the experience to navigate safely on tidal waters with strong flows, then you know that a similar level of hazard exists on non-tidal rivers on yellows or reds. The only differences being narrower waterways with bridges, locks, etc. Narrower waterways sometimes mean faster flows of course, especially on big rivers where a declining flood channels into a narrower cross section of river.

But anyway, the point is taken that an insurance company would take any opportunity to get out of a payment if a claim was made while navigating against the advice of the river authority, which in effect means you are navigating uninsured. That then makes me wonder why moving against such advice is permitted at all? After all, you can't get a river licence without showing evidence of valid marine insurance. If you invalidate your insurance by moving against advice why do lock keepers even let you through? Why are they operating the locks?

Edited by blackrose

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9 minutes ago, blackrose said:

If you invalidate your insurance by moving against advice why do lock keepers even let you through? Why are they operating the locks?

Because there is a right of passage and obstructing you would be unlawful. They can only advise you not to go.

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9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Because there is a right of passage and obstructing you would be unlawful. They can only advise you not to go.

Unlawful? Does that right of passage also extend to boats without a river licence?

Whether it's unlawful or not, there seems to be a slight contradiction - they would certainly obstruct you without any insurance at all (i.e. by the fact that you couldn't get a licence), yet they will allow you to proceed with invalidated insurance.

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Presumably there is a distinction between types of insurance? They require you to have 3rd party insurance before they will issue a licence, but any payout after you sunk your boat would come under the "comprehensive" section of the policy.

My personal view is that if you are confident enough in your abilities not to sink the boat, then you should proceed in the knowledge that your insurer may not pay out. If you consider that the risk is great enough that you might need your insurance, then you should heed the signs and stay put.

The waiver that you used to be asked to sign on the Severn, was written in glorious (almost Mediaeval) language. Something along the lines of "I wish to assert my inalienable right of navigation on the river, and to proceed against the advice of the lock-keeper". I treasure my copy of that certificate!

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At one time I would accept that the Thames lock keepers had excellent knowledge of their bit of river but not now. Too many volunteers, what used to be called summer reliefs, and moving between a variety of locks over a large area.  Some also seem to have little knowledge of boat handling. It seem I may have more knowledge of the river than they do. They also seem to put out the red boards well before their weirs are fully drawn these days.

Edited by Tony Brooks

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