Ultramax Lithium batteries

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

The usual response I get when I say that - is they they are smaller so can be located 'in' the warm bit of the boat.

At that price,I would be sleeping with them to keep them warm.

[Tom and Bex]

18 minutes ago, Detling said:

It would seem that all the success  stories are from more benign climbs than the UK, the thorny issue of not charging at more than 0.05c (2A for a 400AH bank)if the batteries are below zero Centigrade, does not appear as far as I can see. 

But as mentioned, they could be located inside quite safely, but even if not, 10-15 mins running the engine should bring the temp up nicely. Even more so if an old car heater was installed to blow warm air over them. 

[Dr Bob]

Nearly half way through reading Tom and Bex link.

The guy is saying you should have an infrequent red thermometer to do a top balance on the cells! I'm pretty rubbish at balancing things so maybe these aren't for me. Maybe a bit later he will say you need a ecofan (other fans are available). I will let you know if he does.

[MtB]

50 minutes ago, Tom and Bex said:

My main reasons for interest in lithium batteries is, as nicknorman said, the ability to fast charge - would be great to only have to run the engine for 1hr a day in winter!

 

The link goes into this in quite some depth and points out a small frame automotive alternator simply won't do this. They are not designed to run continuously at their peak rated output, they overheat. He specifically discusses an alternator regulator with a temperature sensor on the alternator to modulate the output down as it gets hotter. This means you lose the fast charge you are expecting. 

He talks about a 'large frame' alternator needing to be installed for 200A continuous charging. Whatever that is! More expense...

2 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

I didn't spot that one - could you quote a line of text so I can search for it please?

 

My mistake it was a Mastervolt battery.

"Please do the research, then do your own testing, as I have, then you decide. After all it is your bank and your wallet. I suggest strongly looking into what manufacturers such as Mastervolt have learned over the last few years. Their charge voltage guidance has been reduced quite dramatically. Why? Well if the DESTROYED 10K Mastervolt battery in my shop is any indication then we have our answer. They apparentlylearned something about the Winston/Thundersky cells inside the pretty tea; and gray box, and it was not from the Chinese, it was from actual FAILURES when charging these banks to 14.6V instead of 14.2V or lower. These failures occurred with a fully gourmet 100% factory engineered & integrated LFP system. For a DIY without Mastervolts engineering skills, max out your charge voltage at a13.8V to 14.0V and you will be in a safer range."

[Dr Bob]

32 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Whatever that is! More expense...

...dont forget the infrequent red thermometer.

[dmr]

2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Yes but cost and cycle count aren’t the only considerations. Especially if you are live aboard / not cruising much, the ability to pump huge currents in is surely a large bonus. For example, we have 175A alternator and via the travelpower, 100A from the Combi, so we could pump 275A into lithiums, fully replacing 24 hrs usage in well under an hour. Over 2000 cycles, how much does that save in engine wear and diesel? (less so with solar in summer of course). Not to mention the saving in noisy nuisance.

 

The charge characteristic would be a huge advantage for me, not needing to get to 100% once every week or two is also a big bonus, not needing to equalise is a plus, and not having to put water in is also a plus (just been doing that this afternoon and its tedious), but cost per cycle is still a big factor and until it gets fairly close to the Trojans I don't think I will be switching to Lithium.

The engine running time is slightly less critical for me as the washing machine cycle usually takes about two hours

...............Dave

[WotEver]

59 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

He talks about a 'large frame' alternator needing to be installed for 200A continuous charging. Whatever that is!

A random web page...

http://www.balmar.net/products/extra-large-case-alternators/

[Dr Bob]

3 hours ago, Rob-M said:

I'd go back to reading the article if I was you as Utd aren't going to let you back in to this one.

Well at least we got one back and the baby cheered.

 

 

[Tom and Bex]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

The link goes into this in quite some depth and points out a small frame automotive alternator simply won't do this. They are not designed to run continuously at their peak rated output, they overheat. He specifically discusses an alternator regulator with a temperature sensor on the alternator to modulate the output down as it gets hotter. This means you lose the fast charge you are expecting. 

The alternator regulator I posted a link to earlier has temp sensor for alternator and batteries, and, in LiFePO4 profile, prevents charging if batteries are below freezing. 

Still expect to be able to easily replace a days worth of usage with an hours engine running, with the added bonus the engine would be more heavily loaded. 

[mrsmelly]

41 minutes ago, dmr said:

The charge characteristic would be a huge advantage for me, not needing to get to 100% once every week or two is also a big bonus, not needing to equalise is a plus, and not having to put water in is also a plus (just been doing that this afternoon and its tedious), but cost per cycle is still a big factor and until it gets fairly close to the Trojans I don't think I will be switching to Lithium.

The engine running time is slightly less critical for me as the washing machine cycle usually takes about two hours

...............Dave

WATER in them............what are you victorian. You buy a nice set of cheapo sealed and fit them and forget them. They give stirling service for two plus years then you simply bin and replace. Top up...........water.................deary deary me.

[jimbob01]

I have quite a few valence u27 12 xps some with very low cycles  surplus to my needs/wants.... i have 8 which i have integrated into a simple system...giving fantastic results.  If anyone would like some to integrate into their off grid system pm me.jim from 250_400 quid each  all cycles are logged. 

[Rob-M]

31 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Well at least we got one back and the baby cheered.

 

 

Obviously a Utd fan as I think you'll find we scored it for you 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

Well at least we got one back and the baby cheered.

 

 

 

What a delightful photo! 

[MtB]

2 hours ago, dmr said:

not needing to equalise is a plus

 

Instead, one needs to occasionally 'balance' the charge of the cells. The bod recommends removing the batteries from the boat and using a bench power supply for this, and the process seems to take many hours of feckin' about.

Broadly speaking balancing them means charging them all so they are all at precisely the same voltage. Then resting them and doing it again. And again, and again. The reason for this is when four are in a series bank, the whole bank can appear to need charging when one is at a higher charge than all the others. Charging the whole bank results in the one with the higher residual charge getting wrecked from overcharging, disguised by the other two or three still needing a charge. Unlike FLA batts overcharging is almost immediately fatal to a LFP cell.

Everything one knows about FLA batts needs to be forgotten. In particular, absorption phase is non existent and float is guaranteed to kill them.

[Dr Bob]

44 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

What a delightful photo! 

Thanks Mike.

 

1 hour ago, Rob-M said:

Obviously a Utd fan as I think you'll find we scored it for you 

I lied! I was taking this shot on my phone camera just as Man UreUtd scored their first goal. Some re-education needed.

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Thanks Mike.

 

Your great granddaughter I imagine?

[Dr Bob]

Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Your great granddaughter I imagine?

We seem to have skipped a generation!

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Dr Bob said:

We seem to have skipped a generation!

Your great great granddaughter?!!!?

[TheBiscuits]

4 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

My mistake it was a Mastervolt battery.

That would explain why I couldn't find it when searching for "Victron" then!

The Victron kit looks to be pretty good, but the setup I would want would be about £6000. My next replacement batteries are going to be lead acids at under £600 for the lot.

There was also an extended section on someone who got instructions from a different manufacturer on how to care for their LFP and following them killed the bank.  The manufacturer now issue different instructions, which hopefully do better. 

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

That would explain why I couldn't find it when searching for "Victron" then!

The Vi00 for the lot.

There was also an extended section on someone who got instructions from a different manufacturer on how to care for their LFP and following them killed the bank.  The manufacturer now issue different instructions, which hopefully do better. 

I had a look at the link posted earlier and skipped to the end where there was a nice chart about charging LifePo4 batteries and that will do for me as mine is a 24 volt set up I will just double up and cross my fingers I have no luck as yet with the BMS from Valence so until then its relays to divert charge to the immersion heater  that my mate John is making

[nicknorman]

I have read a fair bit of the link. Rather a lot of self indulgent claptrap diluting some good stuff. IMO it would have been better to have simply stated the facts, advised on the best way to operate the batteries, and cut down on the emotive BS. The whole thing could have been condensed into a couple of pages!

[MtB]

On 09/03/2018 at 17:57, WotEver said:

Sodium. I think that’ll be the next thing. And there’s looooaaads of sodium around. 

But apparently it’s bad for your arteries. 

 

Only if you lick the terminals...

[MtB]

9 hours ago, nicknorman said:

I have read a fair bit of the link. Rather a lot of self indulgent claptrap diluting some good stuff. IMO it would have been better to have simply stated the facts, advised on the best way to operate the batteries, and cut down on the emotive BS. The whole thing could have been condensed into a couple of pages!

 

Yes I thought that too but I forgave the chap because he is American and they can't help it. 

The quality of the stuff in his pages makes it worth cuting him some slack. 

Perhaps you might condense it into two pages for us Nick? That would be most helpful!

[rusty69]

12 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Yes I thought that too but I forgave the chap because he is American and they can't help it. 

He also mentions that the smartgauge is unlikely to work on lithium batteries so should be business as usual for you

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

He also mentions that the smartgauge is unlikely to work on lithium batteries so should be business as usual for you

 

Yes I have the inside track on you all there. 

Interesting to see the smartgauge for sale on his site but branded "Balmer". I think Balmer might be a bit more concerned about quality control than Merlin appear to be.