Ultramax Lithium batteries

[Dr Bob]

Wow, for the price, that is interesting. At this rate, they should be down to affordable pricing by next year. 

.......if we get the answers to wotever's questions.

[Sapphal]

They are shown parallelled in a picture on the customer feedback bit on alibaba

[TheBiscuits]

 

12 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Wow, for the price, that is interesting. At this rate, they should be down to affordable pricing by next year. 

1 hour ago, Sapphal said:

Got a quote for 409$ (£296) each and 329$ (£238) express delivery to the UK.  I would get 3 off (300Ah) for £1126 including delivery - bargain or what?

+ (import duty @ 2.7%) + VAT @ 20%

Do you have a dangerous or explosive goods air freight import licence?

 

Edited March 2, 2018 by TheBiscuits

[Dr Bob]

2 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

+ (import duty @ 2.7%) + VAT @ 20%

Do you have a dangerous or explosive goods air freight import licence?

 

Spoilsport

[WotEver]

13 minutes ago, Sapphal said:

They are shown parallelled in a picture on the customer feedback bit on alibaba

So that could be A) Perfectly acceptable or B ) A bomb just about to go off. 

Without the data how do we know?

[MtB]

10 hours ago, WotEver said:

So that could be A) Perfectly acceptable or B ) A bomb just about to go off. 

Without the data how do we know?

 

There is a long queue of undiscerning boaters who buy on price and price alone, waiting for el cheapo lithium batteries to come on stream. And probably an equally large number of amoral sellers developing inadequately tested products to flog to them and relieve them of their undiscerning money.

Without the data we need to watch, wait and count the number boats destroyed by lithium battery fires as these self-selecting guinea pigs do the research for us. Hopefully there will be none but I feel this is unlikely. 

I'll give it five years before BSS start introducing some lithium-specific safety specifications as a result of lithium 'accidents'.

[mrsmelly]

Or you could buy a full set of cheapos that will do the job admirably for a couple of years for 3/ 400 squiddleys mmmmmmmmmmmm now let me think what am I going to do NOT!!

[TheBiscuits]

6 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

There is a long queue of undiscerning boaters who buy on price and price alone, waiting for el cheapo lithium batteries to come on stream.

Heh.  Price driven buyers will not be getting lithium batteries anytime soon.

I'm quite interested in them for a variety of reasons, but probably not at 10 to 12 times the price of lead acid!

@peterboat seems to have the right idea - a set of slightly used batteries repurposed from a scrapped vehicle, but he wants them to drive an electric boat so needs a more powerful system than most people.

I suspect that by the time drop in replacement boat batteries are "el cheapo" ones most of the issues will have been ironed out.

[Dr Bob]

15 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Heh.  Price driven buyers will not be getting lithium batteries anytime soon.

I'm quite interested in them for a variety of reasons, but probably not at 10 to 12 times the price of lead acid!

@peterboat seems to have the right idea - a set of slightly used batteries repurposed from a scrapped vehicle, but he wants them to drive an electric boat so needs a more powerful system than most people.

I suspect that by the time drop in replacement boat batteries are "el cheapo" ones most of the issues will have been ironed out.

Sapphal's batteries were only 3-4 times more expensive than cheapo LAs which changes the dynamic somewhat. Don't need to run the engine forever and dump the Smartgauge? We are getting nearer if it can be believed.

[system 4-50]

"If it is too good to be true, wait for other people to fully try it out first".  I'll stick to sealed LA  until I get to Heaven (or the other place).

[MtB]

1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

seems to have the right idea - a set of slightly used batteries repurposed from a scrapped vehicle, but he wants them to drive an electric boat so needs a more powerful system than most people.

 

I too think this is probably the way forward in the short/medium term.

What vehicles use them? I can only think of the Nisaan Leaf and the Tesla.

Presumably they will be bare batteries too (or even bare cells), from an accident-damaged vehicle. A separate BMS will be needed I imagine. 

@peterboat what do your batteries look like? Are they in similar size and format to a LA battery? What BMS are you using? So many questions leap to mind!

[MtB]

Googling around idly turns up a photo of a Nissan Leaf battery being assembled in Sunderland:

 

Curiuosly the capacity of them is specified in kWhrs not AmpHrs like LA batteries. I'll seef I can find out what voltage they are. 

Here's another photo. I can't see any electronics being incorporated into these. Looks to me as though those flat aluminium plates about 10"x14" and 1" thick are probably the individual cells.

 

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Curiuosly the capacity of them is specified in kWhrs not AmpHrs like LA batteries. I'll seef I can find out what voltage they are. 

Car power packs are usually 48-50V per module as far as I can tell, but they are not trying to conform to a standard casing.

I think peterboat has got Valence U27-12XP batteries (post on the other lithium battery thread)

https://www.valence.com/products/standard-modules/xp-module/

[MtB]

And a new Nissan Leaf battery as a spare part seems to be about $10,000. Let's imagine this is £10k in the UK, and that's for a 24kWhr battery. 

If they are 12v (which they probably aren't!), that is 2,000AH. 2,000AH of el cheapo LA batteries costs about £2k. 

 

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Car power packs are usually 48-50V per module as far as I can tell, but they are not trying to conform to a standard casing.

I think peterboat has got Valence U27-12XP batteries (post on the other lithium battery thread)

https://www.valence.com/products/standard-modules/xp-module/

 

Ah ok, thanks. You said earlier you thought he got them from a scrapped vehicle. What vehicle uses these then? A forklift truck I'd imagine, rather than a car. 

From the Valence site:

"The U-Charge XP®series is a family of 12, 18, 24 and 36 volt battery modules, available in a variety of capacities, to be used as the building block of a larger energy storage system by assembling in series or parallel.  The modular approach allows for flexible configurations to match almost any voltage and capacity requirements."

Seems pretty close to what we need for boats.

[MtB]

And looks thoroughly thought out and well presented. The BMS link explains each battery has electronics inside to control charging and cell balancing. Each battery has a data connection to all the others so they talk to each other, and a central controlling BMS is required too for each installation, which has a user interface via a PC.

Not sure if the central BMS module actually delivers the charging current though, or what power sources can be used. Probably 240Vac or 110Vac at a guess.

Edited March 3, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman
Spilling.

[TheBiscuits]

18 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Ah ok, thanks. You said earlier you thought he got them from a scrapped vehicle. What vehicle uses these then? A forklift truck I'd imagine, rather than a car. 

 

[MtB]

1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

 

An electric Ford Transit! Surely that must have been one helluva custom modification, rather than a standard offering from Ford. I'm not aware of any electric vans on the market so far. 

I expect Peterboat will be along sooner or later. 

[TheBiscuits]

12 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

An electric Ford Transit! Surely that must have been one helluva custom modification, rather than a standard offering from Ford. I'm not aware of any electric vans on the market so far. 

I expect Peterboat will be along sooner or later. 

lmgtfy ....

[peterboat]

3 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

Heh.  Price driven buyers will not be getting lithium batteries anytime soon.

I'm quite interested in them for a variety of reasons, but probably not at 10 to 12 times the price of lead acid!

@peterboat seems to have the right idea - a set of slightly used batteries repurposed from a scrapped vehicle, but he wants them to drive an electric boat so needs a more powerful system than most people.

I suspect that by the time drop in replacement boat batteries are "el cheapo" ones most of the issues will have been ironed out.

 

3 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

Sapphal's batteries were only 3-4 times more expensive than cheapo LAs which changes the dynamic somewhat. Don't need to run the engine forever and dump the Smartgauge? We are getting nearer if it can be believed.

 

2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I too think this is probably the way forward in the short/medium term.

What vehicles use them? I can only think of the Nisaan Leaf and the Tesla.

Presumably they will be bare batteries too (or even bare cells), from an accident-damaged vehicle. A separate BMS will be needed I imagine. 

@peterboat what do your batteries look like? Are they in similar size and format to a LA battery? What BMS are you using? So many questions leap to mind!

The batteries are from a ford transit, I bought mine from Jim they are Valence xp series U27 have a look at the tinternet and you will see them in detail. I after doing research scrapped the idea of buying from China! The va;lence batteries are well proven Jim has the software and they are cheap, also because you need less of them, are quicker to charge and last a lot longer than FLA in the long run they will work out cheaper. I would put them in my current boat but my full tractions are still ok so why waste the dosh, but If I needed them I wouldnt waste my money on FLAs

[nb Innisfree]

2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Googling around idly turns up a photo of a Nissan Leaf battery being assembled in Sunderland:

 

Curiuosly the capacity of them is specified in kWhrs not AmpHrs like LA batteries. I'll seef I can find out what voltage they are. 

Here's another photo. I can't see any electronics being incorporated into these. Looks to me as though those flat aluminium plates about 10"x14" and 1" thick are probably the individual cells.

 

Amphours mean nothing if the voltage is unknown (about 300v?) kwh is better. Some EVs are starting to quote amphours, prob because being a higher number it sounds like a bigger battery. 

2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

And a new Nissan Leaf battery as a spare part seems to be about $10,000. Let's imagine this is £10k in the UK, and that's for a 24kWhr battery. 

If they are 12v (which they probably aren't!), that is 2,000AH. 2,000AH of el cheapo LA batteries costs about £2k. 

 

New one from Nissan is about £44.5k exchange I believe. 

Edited March 3, 2018 by nb Innisfree

[WotEver]

7 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

New one from Nissan is about £44.5k exchange I believe. 

I’d prefer to spend £30k and get a whole new car

I’ve seen figures between $6500 and $9000 US reported. 

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

 

New one from Nissan is about £44.5k exchange I believe. 

More than a life times worth of FLA batteries - 

Replace 5x 110ah FLA batteries at a cost of 5x £65 = £325 less £25 back from the scrap man = £300.

£44500 / 300 = 148 times.

Replace batteries :

every 6 months for 74 years, or

every month for 12 years

I think I'll stick with FLA.

[TheBiscuits]

26 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

More than a life times worth of FLA batteries - 

Replace 5x 110ah FLA batteries at a cost of 5x £65 = £325 less £25 back from the scrap man = £300.

£44500 / 300 = 148 times.

Replace batteries :

every 6 months for 74 years, or

every month for 12 years

I think I'll stick with FLA.

They are not £45k they are more like £5k for the 24KWh pack with the £1k trade in credit.

If you only use half your FLA capacity to preserve battery life you get ~ 0.7Kwh per battery so we are looking at about 33 leisure batteries for comparison.

So your numbers then look like 

33 * £60 = £1980

£5000 / 2000 = 2.5 times

The Nissan Leaf battery pack is of course the wrong way to do lithium batteries for a boat, but the pricing isn't quite as crazy as people think.

 

Edit to add:

peterboat said he paid £2800 for 8 x 138Ah 12V (1104 Ah) lithium LFP batteries.

The £60 110Ah cheapies would then need 10 batteries to get the raw numbers and 20 to only use half the capacity. £1200 for the same useable power, so again 2.5 times as much.

Edited March 3, 2018 by TheBiscuits

[nb Innisfree]

2 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

They are not £45k they are more like £5K for the 24KWh pack

If you only use half your FLA capacity to preserve battery life you get ~ 0.7Kwh per battery so we are looking at about 33 leisure batteries for comparison.

So your numbers then look like 

33 * £60 = £1980

£5000 / 2000 = 2.5 times

The Nissan Leaf battery pack is of course the wrong way to do lithium batteries for a boat, but the pricing isn't quite as crazy as people think.

 

Sorry,  typo! £44k heh heh!

I think it's £5.5k before £1k back on the old one. So £4.5k