MOB Recovery Ladder

[cheshire~rose]

I need to purchase a man overboard recovery ladder for Python and, as it is not something I have ever seen "in the flesh" or researched I was a little bamboozled when I Googled and found so many different types, styles and indeed prices!

Do any of you have any experience of buying, owning or perhaps more importantly, using these ladders and can give me some pointers on what I should be looking for and what I should avoid please?

[Tony Brooks]

I went through the same process last winter. Most I found to be rope ladders and having made a few for the kids to climb trees I know just how hard they are to used. Eventually I settled on a folding "dingy" ladder. This is designed for rubber boats and is secured to said boat by a rope loop running between the two aluminium tube uprights. It was supposed to fold in half but the spacing of the treads meant it would not fold fully and a tread also fouled the rudder when secured across the stern of the boat.. A few moments with a drill  easily relocated the treads so it would fold flat. It was then too long to sit across the back of the cruiser stern so I reduced the length at the top of the uprights by about 2 " and re-secured the rope fittings.

It now sits between the cruiser stern cockpit down sheeting and the rudder secured by a bungy cable.

I have tried it. You can pull it clear of the boat while in the water. When hung of the stern dolly or T stud being rigid  it does not swing away from you as you try to climb it, but it is still not easy. If placed against piling one way round it is just like a short ladded while the other way round it folds so the treads of the bottom half would tend to dig into a sloping canal bed.

It needs to be brought into the boat when you are away from it for the winter (If you are) to minimise solar degradation of the rope and the rope would ideally be replaced every few years to ensure it does not fail when its eventually needed.

I feel three horizontal steps about 3" x 3" welded to the side of the trailing edge of the rudder might easier to use.

[cheshire~rose]

Thank you Tony. 

It appears you have indeed put a great deal of thought into your choice so well done for that. Unfortunately I don't think this will be a route we can go down. First of all Python, being a historic boat, has a trad stern and there is really nowhere I would want to have a rescue ladder stowed in that space, it is small enough as it is without creating any potential trip hazards for the volunteer crew. 

You have led me to think about this further though because having an escape ladder at the stern deck of a trad boat is probably far from ideal, it would not be possible to get more than one person on the deck to help pull a MOB out of the water (and there still be any room on that deck for the MOB to climb onto) 

Given that, unusually, Python has access steps in the middle (just forward of the cabin) and given that it is easier for someone to help pull someone out of the water is they are standing lower down in the hold of the vessel I think the best place to deploy the ladder from would be at the side, it is free from the "clutter" of fenders and tiller that might get in the way of a rescue and crew standing in the hold should be able to reach over the gunwale and haul under the armpits of a MOB which are likely to be at their waist level rather than being somewhere below their feet. 

How are these things usually secured to the boat? It could just mean we create sturdy anchor points in the wooden topping on the gunwales on each side of the boat and stow the ladder under the gunwales inside the vessel. 

Does anyone have any photos they can share? 

[Tony Brooks]

Look at "Bathing Ladders". One of these would hook over the gunwale as & when needed and as it seem you envisage always having people on board to recover the victim the ladder does not nee to be stowed in a manner that allows the MOB to deploy it themselves. As its a canal boat I have half a mind that an ordinary ladder could be used in the madder you describe.

Personally I have some doubts about it being easier to pull someone aboard while standing in the cargo hold. It sounds as if it might be asking for back injury.

 

Edited to add after further thought. A conventional ladder jammed into the canal bed and held in place by two people on the boat should stop the boat moving too far during the recovery, the only problem might be with sideways movement but the boat would very soon ground.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Tony Brooks

[pete.i]

I bought one of these. https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0.Xtelescopic+ladder.TRS0&_nkw=telescopic+ladder&_sacat=0

I didn't use it anger at any time though. I made a couple of metal brackets/hooks to secure it to the side of the boat. I tried one of those rope ladder doobries and I couldn't climb up it. For someone who is in the cold cold drink I would think it would be impossible. The main problem I found with a rope ladder is that it moves about and swings making it a lot lot harder to climb than a solid ladder.

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, pete.i said:

I bought one of these. https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0.Xtelescopic+ladder.TRS0&_nkw=telescopic+ladder&_sacat=0

A word about this type of ladder, it seems that from TV there are a number of vendors who supply into the UK who's ladders do not comply with the relevant BS (they may claim they are) and are dangerous, there have been cases of them collapsing in use it seems. Otherwise I would thing that for CR's purpose one would do the job.

[Alan de Enfield]

32 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Otherwise I would thing that for CR's purpose one would do the job.

I would have thought that a Charity owned boat that was used for 'public access' (trips etc) would be subject to strict legal requirements and that a means of re-boarding / MoB would be specified by the MCA, HSA (or other controlling authority).

Although not being a recreational boat, &, built before the RCD was introduced, it is interesting to note that it is now compulsory for RCD compliant boats to have a MoB recovery system incorporated.**

Using a 'lashed-up' ladder, or some 'suspect specification' ladder from Ebay may/would leave the operators open to legal action in the event of an accident.

If the ladder is for your own personal boat / personal use then I would suggest that anything that works is OK

 

** Document ID : 15085 2003 A1 2009 EN ISO Title : Protection from Falling Overboard and Means of Re-boarding""

 

Edit to Add :

http://www.rcdweb.com/

Edited January 5, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[13-10]

Jason's cradle might be an option. Relatively easy  and compact to stow and could be hooked on the hand rail when needed to be used

[WotEver]

52 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

A word about this type of ladder, it seems that from TV there are a number of vendors who supply into the UK who's ladders do not comply with the relevant BS (they may claim they are) and are dangerous, there have been cases of them collapsing in use it seems.

My understanding is that all of the cases of collapse/catching fingers etc were due to misuse (not following the instructions as to how to collapse them and/or checking that the safety catches have engaged). 

Nevertheless the major UK suppliers such as  Machine Mart and Screwfix have removed them from their inventories because that’s simpler than fighting a no-win-no-fee solicitor. 

I’m happy to be corrected if anyone knows of any cases of actual faulty products. 

[BilgePump]

46 minutes ago, 13-10 said:

Jason's cradle might be an option. Relatively easy  and compact to stow and could be hooked on the hand rail when needed to be used

Good thing about a Jason's Cradle is that they can be used to rescue someone who is injured aswell as someone who just needs to pull themselves out of the water.  Kind of a semi-rigid scramble net. Never used one but saw a video test of one a while back, can't find it now, but this link is the manufacturer's demo showing how it can be used 

 

[13-10]

2 minutes ago, BilgePump said:

Good thing about a Jason's Cradle is that they can be used to rescue someone who is injured aswell as someone who just needs to pull themselves out of the water.  Kind of a semi-rigid scramble net. Never used one but saw a video test of one a while back, can't find it now, but this link is the manufacturer's demo showing how it can be used 

They're not exactly what you'd call elegant but they do work well and the design means someone can also get themselves out of the water using it as well

[RLWP]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Personally I have some doubts about it being easier to pull someone aboard while standing in the cargo hold. It sounds as if it might be asking for back injury.

It sounds nigh on impossible, can even you reach the water if you are standing in the hold?

[bizzard]

I use a shortish wooden ladder, a Network Rail one, which I found lying on the towpath along with lots of new chair to rail track clamp clips beneath the main railway line overbridge here. The workers had obviousely dropped them over and couldn't be bothered to climb down and get them, no wonder train fares keep increasing. Since then I camoflaged it, made a plywood inset which slides out so it doubles as a gang plank. It is not heavy and just about  floats if its dropped in the river. It has since rescued two heavy people here who fell in. Its deep in the middle here 9ft, but about 2-4ft near the banks, so the ladder planted down in the mud and tied at the top did the trick, the victims just climbed up and out all muddy and weed strewn. However this was in summer time. In winter time when the waters very cold the victims might have weakened and there legs gone, arms weak and can't climb up. In this situation a rope with a loop in it passed over and under the arms of the victim and pulled up and tied off on something stout and strong whilst help is summoned, which will make the victim feel more secure and safe until the rescuers are organized. It will take two, three or more strong folk to haul an inert adult out of the water.

[cheshire~rose]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Look at "Bathing Ladders". One of these would hook over the gunwale as & when needed and as it seem you envisage always having people on board to recover the victim the ladder does not nee to be stowed in a manner that allows the MOB to deploy it themselves. As its a canal boat I have half a mind that an ordinary ladder could be used in the madder you describe.

Personally I have some doubts about it being easier to pull someone aboard while standing in the cargo hold. It sounds as if it might be asking for back injury.

 

Edited to add after further thought. A conventional ladder jammed into the canal bed and held in place by two people on the boat should stop the boat moving too far during the recovery, the only problem might be with sideways movement but the boat would very soon ground.

As lone operation on any of The Trust's boats is not allowed (yes I know you don't have to be operating the boat to fall in!) I would always expect there to be at least one other crew member around to assist with recovery and, once the engine was off, the helm could join them to assist. 

From a personal point of view I would struggle to even kneel down on the counter let along reach down to get hold of someone in the water, whereas we regularly lift lumps of stuff (soaking wet pallets, tree branches, TV's shopping trolley's etc) out of the cut from in the hold. I appreciate that none of them are going to be as heavy as a person in wet clothing but it is likely the person may be able to raise their arms to grab the gunwale or the ladder and actively help a little in getting out. 

One of the boat crews had some proper MOB training last summer using a proper weighted dummy in a lock. I have requested it be extended to our team this year as I feel it is something that we could all benefit from. 

The really interesting thing is that the MOB training they did last year showed that the ladder they had was absolutely useless for anyone to climb up and instead  to get somebody out of the water they suggest looping a rope around their back, under their armpits, and helping them out by pulling up on the rope. 

 

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I would have thought that a Charity owned boat that was used for 'public access' (trips etc) would be subject to strict legal requirements and that a means of re-boarding / MoB would be specified by the MCA, HSA (or other controlling authority).

Although not being a recreational boat, &, built before the RCD was introduced, it is interesting to note that it is now compulsory for RCD compliant boats to have a MoB recovery system incorporated.**

Using a 'lashed-up' ladder, or some 'suspect specification' ladder from Ebay may/would leave the operators open to legal action in the event of an accident.

If the ladder is for your own personal boat / personal use then I would suggest that anything that works is OK

 

** Document ID : 15085 2003 A1 2009 EN ISO Title : Protection from Falling Overboard and Means of Re-boarding""

 

Edit to Add :

http://www.rcdweb.com/

Python is not a trip boat and while there are indeed a number of strict legal requirements that must be adhered to they are nothing like as stringent as they are for public trip boats. 

The reason for adding a MOB recovery ladder is to bring her into line with our in house Boat Safety Management Scheme where we try to ensure that all crews across 4 trip boats (and now one maintenance boat) are singing from the same corporate hymn sheet so to speak. Python does not require RCD but, where it has been practical to do so we have tried to ensure her fit out complies with it because we want to make sure our volunteers are as safe as they can be. 

35 minutes ago, RLWP said:

It sounds nigh on impossible, can even you reach the water if you are standing in the hold?

Yes - and this is how we collect waterborne litter. 

[cheshire~rose]

37 minutes ago, RLWP said:

It sounds nigh on impossible, can even you reach the water if you are standing in the hold?

If the boat is on an even keel I would struggle to touch the water leaning over the edge but if two people stand at one side the list means that fingertips can reach water level. IF the MOB is conscious then they should be capable of practising the tip given to them at the H&S briefing at the start of the day - "If you fall in try standing up" A person standing in the water is likely to only be waist or chest deep in many places so their head and shoulders should be much closer to the hands that are trying to help them get out 

This picture may give some idea of how close to the water surface you are when in the hold:

 

[bizzard]

One of those short wooden window cleaners ladders would also make a good rescue ladder, the ones that taper towards the top. Just store them on the roof. A Hyab could be mounted on the boat to scoop up MOB's in its bucket.

[mrsmelly]

I have a folding aluminium ladder purchased from ebay, it goes into several shapes very quickly and is very strong. I leave it in its extended position on the roof for easy get at ness  I would be able to put a quarter of it at a 90 degree angle onto the rear deck with rest in water or leave straight and put into canal at side. People don't know how to climb a rope ladder it should be climbed at the side not front on.

[cheshire~rose]

1 minute ago, bizzard said:

 Just store them on the roof. A Hyab could be mounted on the boat to scoop up MOB's in its bucket.

I was just waiting for that suggestion  

I think the thing is to try and be prepared, at the end of the day we have a life ring and our crew wear life jackets if they are actively working 

We have a very shallow canal but then there is the tidal Trent that she goes on regularly and it is not going to be easy to jam a ladder in the silt there 

[bizzard]

2 minutes ago, cheshire~rose said:

I was just waiting for that suggestion  

I think the thing is to try and be prepared, at the end of the day we have a life ring and our crew wear life jackets if they are actively working 

We have a very shallow canal but then there is the tidal Trent that she goes on regularly and it is not going to be easy to jam a ladder in the silt there 

 

3 minutes ago, cheshire~rose said:

I was just waiting for that suggestion  

I think the thing is to try and be prepared, at the end of the day we have a life ring and our crew wear life jackets if they are actively working 

We have a very shallow canal but then there is the tidal Trent that she goes on regularly and it is not going to be easy to jam a ladder in the silt there 

You just hang the ladder by a strop to something stout if the waters too deep to plant it in the mud.

[cheshire~rose]

Just now, bizzard said:

 

You just hang the ladder by a strop to something stout if the waters too deep to plant it in the mud.

OK I will check if Midland Chandlers have any stock of sky hooks in......

I will also point out a flaw in some of the other suggestions, Python doesn't have a "roof" so we can't stow stuff there. We would need to store it on the cabin top instead  

[David Mack]

Recovering someone onto a narrow boat is never going to be easy.  If the MOB is conscious and uninjured, then it may well be easier for him/her to climb out onto the bank than onto the boat. On the canal you can usually walk to the bank - the offside may be easier for climbing out as the water is usually shallower than towpath side. And on the river, any of the crew should be wearing a lifejacket, so again, no immediate panic - just swim/paddle to the bank.

If the MOB is unconscious or injured enough to significantly impair mobility, you have a much bigger problem. I suspect it may even be necessary for an able-bodied crew member to get into the water to assist (having first called the emergency services), as there is little you can do from the boat or bank.

For Python I would have thought the best option to be an aluminium ladder with hooks on the top which hook over the gunwale, and which can be deployed on either side of the boat as necessary. The ladder should be long enough to hang down below the bottom of the boat far enough for the MOB to easily get this/her feet on the bottom rung, so perhaps 6 ft long overall. It doesn't matter that it may rest on the bed when used on the canal. A folding ladder may be easier for storage. Such a ladder can also be deployed from the bank to assist the MOB to climb out where the water is too deep or bank too high for an easy exit. 

We carry an extendable aluminium ladder on Fulbourne (an old loft ladder), which we used in anger last summer when a chap on another boat fell in. He was uninjured, but could not climb onto the sheet-piled towpath even with two of us trying to help.

 

[pete.i]

10 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Recovering someone onto a narrow boat is never going to be easy.  If the MOB is conscious and uninjured, then it may well be easier for him/her to climb out onto the bank than onto the boat. On the canal you can usually walk to the bank - the offside may be easier for climbing out as the water is usually shallower than towpath side. And on the river, any of the crew should be wearing a lifejacket, so again, no immediate panic - just swim/paddle to the bank.

If the MOB is unconscious or injured enough to significantly impair mobility, you have a much bigger problem. I suspect it may even be necessary for an able-bodied crew member to get into the water to assist (having first called the emergency services), as there is little you can do from the boat or bank.

For Python I would have thought the best option to be an aluminium ladder with hooks on the top which hook over the gunwale, and which can be deployed on either side of the boat as necessary. The ladder should be long enough to hang down below the bottom of the boat far enough for the MOB to easily get this/her feet on the bottom rung, so perhaps 6 ft long overall. It doesn't matter that it may rest on the bed when used on the canal. A folding ladder may be easier for storage. Such a ladder can also be deployed from the bank to assist the MOB to climb out where the water is too deep or bank too high for an easy exit. 

We carry an extendable aluminium ladder on Fulbourne (an old loft ladder), which we used in anger last summer when a chap on another boat fell in. He was uninjured, but could not climb onto the sheet-piled towpath even with two of us trying to help.

 

I know this sounds nasty and I also know that some would go into the water to assist BUT nobody else should enter the water to assist a casualty. The chances are that you could end up as a casualty yourself.  Water safety training (and yes I do do water safety training) says exactly this. 

[Steilsteven]

Very interesting thread, wasn't aware of Jason's Cradles before so looked them up. The price is quite eye watering at around £1500 but I found an alternative  the Hypo Hoist which serves the same purpose and is considerably cheaper. 

https://www.seasafe.co.uk/shop/ct/man_overboard_ancillaries/pd/hypo-hoist

Keith 

[13-10]

1 minute ago, Steilsteven said:

Very interesting thread, wasn't aware of Jason's Cradles before so looked them up. The price is quite eye watering at around £1500 but I found an alternative  the Hypo Hoist which serves the same purpose and is considerably cheaper. 

https://www.seasafe.co.uk/shop/ct/man_overboard_ancillaries/pd/hypo-hoist

Keith 

Jasons Cradle has become a bit of a generic term for this sort of recovery system. They all operate in the same sort of way though and are pretty effective, the hypo hoist is a good bit of kit especially with the centre ladder

[rustydiver]

I fitted one a few years ago, one of these

https://seamarknunn.com/acatalog/Emergency-Safety-Ladder-1.3m-Recovery-Ladder-MMS3636.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiA4bzSBRDOARIsAHJ1UO7kzRiQNTfMa0PkDWgj5qoA5P6EqBj4KjttZ7-neuW3Y8qV-G7MyKgaAjsQEALw_wcB

I have jumped in and tried it out, its clipped to the side of the boat, i fitted an old diving ankle weight to make it sink quickly, i managed to climb up it ok the few times i tried it out, the downside off a rope type ladder is that it wants to go under the boat as you put weight on it plus you need a bit of strength to pull yourself up the ladder. I know it may be everyones cup of tea but its there as another just in case. The bag is bright yellow so can be seen by others in the water if needed.

 

The wife fell off the boat while we was tying up and she didn't have enough strength to climb out with our aluminium ladder, me and my son had to pull her over the armcove.