New batteries - problem

[nicknorman]

1/ best to read the instructions which tell you how it should work, then check its doing what it should:Adverc instructions

basically, you should see the charge voltage at 14v for 5 mins, then 14.4 for 15 mins, then back to 14v for 5 mins etc. Personally I think 14.4v is too low for modern batteries with calcium, hence the suggestion to tweak it up.

2/ Get an electrician to check out the installation. Or a friendly and helpful forum member! If it’s faulty, send back to the manufacturer for repair.

3/ no.

 

Edited October 25, 2017 by nicknorman

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

disassembly

Dismantle is the word you were grasping for!

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Dismantle is the word you were grasping for!

No it wasn't.

disassemble. /ˌdɪsəˈsɛmbəl/. verb. 1. (transitive) to take apart (a piece of machinery, etc); dismantle. Derived Forms. disassembly, noun. Collins English ...

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

No it wasn't.

disassemble. /ˌdɪsəˈsɛmbəl/. verb. 1. (transitive) to take apart (a piece of machinery, etc); dismantle. Derived Forms. disassembly, noun. Collins English ...

 

I stand corrected.

But blimey, what a clumsy and graceless word, when dismantle is so much nicer and means the same thing.

[Dave_P]

50 minutes ago, WotEver said:

1. By measuring the voltage as previously described. Humour me.  Which post?  I remember saying i have a multimeter.  I have a vague idea how it works...

2. Unlikely to be achievable. Unless it’s incorrectly wired then failure usually means replacement. 

3. No. It raises the alternator voltage as described by Nick

 

54 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

1/ best to read the instructions which tell you how it should work, then check its doing what it should:Adverc instructions

basically, you should see the charge voltage at 14v for 5 mins, then 14.4 for 15 mins, then back to 14v for 5 mins etc. Personally I think 14.4v is too low for modern batteries with calcium, hence the suggestion to tweak it up.

2/ Get an electrician to check out the installation. Or a friendly and helpful forum member! If it’s faulty, send back to the manufacturer for repair.

3/ no.

 

Friendly AND helpful???  You're asking too much, surely?  Any takers?  I'll be in Worcester for the next couple of weeks.  Then heading towards Brum.

[Robbo]

20 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I stand corrected.

But blimey, what a clumsy and graceless word, when dismantle is so much nicer and means the same thing.

But how will you sound like Johnny 5 if you don't use the word disassemble?

 

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Robbo said:

But how will you sound like Johnny 5 if you don't use the word disassemble?

 

I still prefer dismantle.

After dismantling, might one remantle? 

[WotEver]

9 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I still prefer dismantle.

After dismantling, might one remantle? 

Why not just mantle?

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Why not just mantle?

 

That's what you'd do in the first place. To reverse a dismantling, a remantle is required.

Or a re-disassemble.  

[dmr]

2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

And the point of that is that the optimum voltage is dependant on battery temperature. So you’d want to turn it up in winter and down in summer.

The Adverc already does its own automatic temperature compensation, it includes a little thermistor that goes next to the batteries. I make an additional temperature compensation which is a sort of "LifeStyle Correction" to compensate for much reduced running hours in the winter. In summer we cruise most days so the batteries rarely get below 85%, so charging at 14.8v is probably too much and uses water. In winter we sometimes stay still for almost 14 days and just do a short engine run to charge the batteries (and run the washing machine and make hot water and warm the back cabin ). This is when sulphation becomes an issue so charging at closer to 15 is better.

..............Dave

[dmr]

3 hours ago, Dave_P said:

 

Thanks for this Dave.  I haven't been in Brum for a couple of months but will be back some time before Christmas.

1.  I have batteries which I can top up.

2.  I'm not sure.  I have a multimeter but I usually check the voltage when charging by looking at my solar controller display.  It shows a bit over 14v when the engine is running (70a alternator) or the battery charger (40a Sterling multi-stage) is on (even when it's dark).  I don't think I've ever seen it read more than 14.5v.

3.  See above.

I still don't know what the adverc is or does.  To me it's a black box which just sits there.  I wouldn't even know if it's working.

"Take care as its the higher of the two voltages that you need to set." - I don't know what this means?  Two voltages?

"The really nice thing to do is to get somebody who can solder to replace that little adjuster with a little knob on the outside of the Adverc." - can you expand on this?  Why would I need to replace an adjuster?  Is my adjuster broken?

The forum has given you some good answers.

The Adverc increases the alternator voltage. This only works if the Alternator voltage is too low and the Adverc is set to a suitable higher voltage. It also cycles between two voltages to make a compromise between good charging and minimum water loss, but this possibly has other advantages too. Again this only works properly if the alternators own voltage is lower than the lower Adverc voltage. 

The Adverc was designed in the days when alternators had stupidly low voltage settings, but is still very useful now because liveaboard boaters have realised that stupidly high charging voltages are a really good thing

If you are going to get into this stuff then some sort of permanently installed voltmeter, and ideally an amp-meter too, would be really sensible. There is some very cheap stuff available on eBay. Maybe the mythical friendly forum member could help you select and fit one. Sadly Brum is pretty much out of bounds for us this winter due to stoppages.

To find out if the Adverc is working.... with the engine running and the batteries almost full, measure battery voltage, pull the plug out of the Adverc, measure the voltage again. If the voltage drops then the Adverc is working. If the voltage does not drop then either Adverc is broken or set to too low a voltage.

With engine running and batteries almost full turn the little adjuster slowly and carefully and see if voltage increases.

If correctly installed the Adverc should have its own warning light, do you have an "unknown" light next to your ignition light????

Adverc are pretty good at fixing their stuff for a reasonable price.

..............Dave

[smileypete]

2 hours ago, cuthound said:

I agree, Yuasa are used by many commrrcial companies who rely on batteries for their livelihood.

My experience is that heavily sulphated batteries never fully recover their capacity.

What worked for me was to trickle charge 24/7 and charge at C/30 for two half hour periods a day, took a loooong time though, like weeks and months.  So no good for batts in daily use!

 

2 hours ago, dor said:

Interesting article.  Does anyone recognise the two batteries that are shown as being 'good' - the Varta and Banner ones?

They've got pics of them albeit not hi res, anyway they may have changed from a few years ago.

Also mentions they meet EN 50342 which includes a cycle life rating, so maybe contact them and ask if they meet that spec and what the rating is.

Nevertheless I'd baby them initially, (ie charge as fully and frequently as poss), then monitor carefully while using more normally (less frequent full charges.)

Can't find a PDF of EN 50342 online but this book mentions some of it:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PXV_CwAAQBAJ&pg=PA567#v=onepage&q&f=false

Edited October 25, 2017 by smileypete

[dmr]

20 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

That's what you'd do in the first place. To reverse a dismantling, a remantle is required.

Or a re-disassemble.  

As our language becomes increasingly Americanized  we really should be saying "tear down". And I assume putting it back together is a tear up??

..............Dave

[MtB]

8 minutes ago, dmr said:

As our language becomes increasingly Americanized  we really should be saying "tear down". And I assume putting it back together is a tear up??

..............Dave

 

And on a similar note, the knitting term 'casting on' is presumably the opposite of the boating term 'casting off'? 

 

(Edit to tear down, rearrange and tear up the sentence.) 

Edited October 25, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[BruceinSanity]

7 minutes ago, dmr said:

As our language becomes increasingly Americanized  we really should be saying "tear down". And I assume putting it back together is a tear up??

..............Dave

This makes me tear up <reaches for handkerchief>.

And mantling means something quite different: "A rosy glow mantled her cheeks."

[Dave_P]

43 minutes ago, dmr said:

The forum has given you some good answers.

The Adverc increases the alternator voltage. This only works if the Alternator voltage is too low and the Adverc is set to a suitable higher voltage. It also cycles between two voltages to make a compromise between good charging and minimum water loss, but this possibly has other advantages too. Again this only works properly if the alternators own voltage is lower than the lower Adverc voltage. 

The Adverc was designed in the days when alternators had stupidly low voltage settings, but is still very useful now because liveaboard boaters have realised that stupidly high charging voltages are a really good thing

If you are going to get into this stuff then some sort of permanently installed voltmeter, and ideally an amp-meter too, would be really sensible. There is some very cheap stuff available on eBay. Maybe the mythical friendly forum member could help you select and fit one. Sadly Brum is pretty much out of bounds for us this winter due to stoppages.

To find out if the Adverc is working.... with the engine running and the batteries almost full, measure battery voltage, pull the plug out of the Adverc, measure the voltage again. If the voltage drops then the Adverc is working. If the voltage does not drop then either Adverc is broken or set to too low a voltage.

With engine running and batteries almost full turn the little adjuster slowly and carefully and see if voltage increases.

If correctly installed the Adverc should have its own warning light, do you have an "unknown" light next to your ignition light????

Adverc are pretty good at fixing their stuff for a reasonable price.

..............Dave

I have a few lights on my panel.  Only one has ever worked.  Maybe one is for the adverc?  I'll post a piccy later hopefully.

[Dave_P]

Isn't there some kind of charging thingy which I can plug into the mains and then attach (croc-clips?) to the batteries which will hit them with 15v or more until I turn it off? If not, why not?

I'm also wondering if there's a gap in the market for a boating 'battery doctor' who goes around rejuvenating people's battery banks.  I'd probably take that service if it came past... 

 

[bizzard]

I have two chargers. One is an old Halfords 12amp which give my battery a nice gentle charge but does eventually reach 15.2 v and remains there for a while before dropping back to 13.6v. My other is a 20amp RAC charger, this has two boost positions (boost-start and boost) as well as ordinary charging. To do the equalising thing now and then after an ordinary charge I bung it onto Boost for a while which takes it up to about 15.9v. My cheapo battery is now 5 years old and still going strong.

[Johny London]

I'm thinking one of us (from the knackered battery gang) is going to have to try out a desulfator - just in case.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/battery-desulfator-and-reconditioner-restore-lead-acid-batteries-12-24-Volt/252120721226?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

Only thing is it looks like it'll just be another current drain, what with those impressive looking heatsinks!

[smileypete]

40 minutes ago, Johny London said:

I'm thinking one of us (from the knackered battery gang) is going to have to try out a desulfator - just in case.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/battery-desulfator-and-reconditioner-restore-lead-acid-batteries-12-24-Volt/252120721226?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

Only thing is it looks like it'll just be another current drain, what with those impressive looking heatsinks!

Can't see it working on a typical off grid liveaboard where the batts rarely (if ever!) get a full charge.

Might possibly work if the batts are maintained at 100% 24/7 eg by a trickle charger, even then it may take months.

Even so in the latter case there may be a placebo effect just from the batts getting a prolonged full charge.

For sickly 'el cheapo' leisure batts, there appears to be at least some track record of success from people doing careful and responsible eq charging.

Edited October 25, 2017 by smileypete

[cuthound]

41 minutes ago, smileypete said:

Can't see it working on a typical off grid liveaboard where the batts rarely (if ever!) get a full charge.

Might possibly work if the batts are maintained at 100% 24/7 eg by a trickle charger, even then it may take months.

Even so in the latter case there may be a placebo effect just from the batts getting a prolonged full charge.

For sickly 'el cheapo' leisure batts, there appears to be at least some track record of success from people doing careful and responsible eq charging.

I agree, these de-sulphators have something of  a "snake oil" reputation.

With regards to the highlighted text, batteries treated gently like this rarely, if ever, sulphate. They do however benefit from annual equalisation.

[smileypete]

32 minutes ago, cuthound said:

I agree, these de-sulphators have something of  a "snake oil" reputation.

With regards to the highlighted text, batteries treated gently like this rarely, if ever, sulphate. They do however benefit from annual equalisation.

Glad you said that would have been clearer for me to say:

Might possibly work if the batts are maintained at 100% 24/7 eg by a trickle charger while being desulphated, even then it may take months.

Think JLs money would be better spent on an ammeter, even just a handheld clamp on.

Common aspects of batt probs seems to include...

  'El cheapest' batts

  High electrical demands

  Poor monitoring or some misunderstanding of it, eg no ammeter, '100% problem'

  No significant solar, eg only engine/genny recharging

  Charge voltage too low for batts or no/few option for adjusting it.

 

Edited October 25, 2017 by smileypete

[cuthound]

19 minutes ago, smileypete said:

Glad you said that would have been clearer for me to say:

Might possibly work if the batts are maintained at 100% 24/7 eg by a trickle charger while being desulphated, even then it may take months.

Think JLs money would be better spent on an ammeter, even just a handheld clamp on.

Common aspects of batt probs seems to include...

  'El cheapest' batts

  High electrical demands

  Poor monitoring or some misunderstanding of it, eg no ammeter, '100% problem'

  No significant solar, eg only engine/genny recharging

  Charge voltage too low for batts or no/few option for adjusting it.

 

Completely agree with the common aspect points. The exception to the rule being MtB with his not so cheap Yuasa's. 

[smileypete]

19 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Completely agree with the common aspect points. The exception to the rule being MtB with his not so cheap Yuasa's. 

dunno what happened there, ISTR they were cheaper than Trojans at the time, maybe they were newly introduced and not quite right. There looks to be a lot of badge engineering (or stickering!) with the mid range batts.

Still MtB has serious competition from Keeping Up, reading his 'still eating batteries' topic, linky somewhere above.

Best I can think of for now for most narrowboaters is decent 'el cheapos' eg Numax, Varta, Banner etc; buy from a decent supplier with good turnover of them, baby them at first then carefully monitor for capacity loss with any harsher use.

Edited October 25, 2017 by smileypete

[dor]

3 hours ago, smileypete said:

They've got pics of them albeit not hi res, anyway they may have changed from a few years ago.

Also mentions they meet EN 50342 which includes a cycle life rating, so maybe contact them and ask if they meet that spec and what the rating is.

Nevertheless I'd baby them initially, (ie charge as fully and frequently as poss), then monitor carefully while using more normally (less frequent full charges.)

Can't find a PDF of EN 50342 online but this book mentions some of it:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PXV_CwAAQBAJ&pg=PA567#v=onepage&q&f=false

Thanks for your response.   Now, what do you call "decent 'el cheapos' eg Numax, Varta, Banner etc;"   I've bought batteries for about £55 which seemed no better or worse than ones costing £75, all weighing about 23-24kg. Varta, Banner etc. seem to be nearer £100.  It was mentioned earlier that batteries don't seem to be as good these days and that is something I was wondering about.  When I was fitting my boat out ten years ago, the original batteries lasted for about three years and were well abused with an inverter for power tools and DAB radio and only charged once a week on the engine.  The next lasted well too (they were the £55 ones), but the last couple of sets haven't done as well and I am struggling to get two years out of them.  I'm off-grid, so no charger, but I do have a solar panel which usually brings them up to full charge when I have left the boat.