New batteries - problem

[smileypete]

29 minutes ago, dor said:

Thanks for your response.   Now, what do you call "decent 'el cheapos' eg Numax, Varta, Banner etc;"   I've bought batteries for about £55 which seemed no better or worse than ones costing £75, all weighing about 23-24kg. Varta, Banner etc. seem to be nearer £100.  It was mentioned earlier that batteries don't seem to be as good these days and that is something I was wondering about.  When I was fitting my boat out ten years ago, the original batteries lasted for about three years and were well abused with an inverter for power tools and DAB radio and only charged once a week on the engine.  The next lasted well too (they were the £55 ones), but the last couple of sets haven't done as well and I am struggling to get two years out of them.  I'm off-grid, so no charger, but I do have a solar panel which usually brings them up to full charge when I have left the boat.

Sure the 'el cheapest' may work fine but they do seem to be a bit of a lottery, so not such a safe bet, maybe unless a local hire fleet or a reputable local supplier rates one in particular. Also the better brands seem to have decent technical backup available if things really go wrong.

What may have changed is the formulation for car batts, eg calcium/calcium, and this tends to get reused as is for manufacturing leisure batts, since they're a tiny volume by comparison.

A possible way out is to use Trojans et al, but they might not pan out for the average boater who isn't really into in batts and charging, and so  doesn't have the interest to avoid the typical pitfalls and overcome any future issues. They may go to the hassle of redoing their wiring and box to suit these batts, then find they don't perform well as expected.

Edited October 25, 2017 by smileypete

[dmr]

3 hours ago, Dave_P said:

Isn't there some kind of charging thingy which I can plug into the mains and then attach (croc-clips?) to the batteries which will hit them with 15v or more until I turn it off? If not, why not?

I'm also wondering if there's a gap in the market for a boating 'battery doctor' who goes around rejuvenating people's battery banks.  I'd probably take that service if it came past... 

 

Yes, there are various intelligent battery chargers that have an equalisation function that should do exactly what you want, at a price. As a cheap and cheerful alternative you could get one of these:

http://www.halfords.com/workshop-tools/garage-equipment/battery-chargers-jump-starters/ring-rcb320-battery-charger

As long as your domestic current draw is not too high this unregulated charger will creep right up to 15 volts (on boost setting), maybe even higher (I cant remember the exact voltage). It won't go into float so its down to you to turn it off when things are done, not the sort of charger to leave on permanently.

Ive got one of these "used only once" that you can have for half price, but as I said before, we are now up North for the winter (on the River right now) and wont be in the Brum area till the spring or summer.

There is some potential for battery rejuvenation but its time consuming and has a limited success rate so not a business I would won't to try, this is why garages always just fit new ones.

..............Dave

[mrsmelly]

20 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Not when you have lovely Trojans. Proper ones, mind!

but you dont use em so they will never be a problem will they?

[nicknorman]

5 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

but you dont use em so they will never be a problem will they?

We were out for 7 weeks in the summer. We used them then. We are currently out for 2 weeks, I’m not sitting here in the dark! As well as lighting we use them for the HD recording sat box, telly, fridge, Nespresso machine, toaster, electric kettle, fan oven (gas flame, electric fan), Dyson, numerous chargers for 2x iPhones 2x iPads, 2 x laptops, electric blanket (in the coldest weather) as well as the usual pumps. But yes, apart from that we don’t use them.

[mrsmelly]

5 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

We were out for 7 weeks in the summer. We used them then. We are currently out for 2 weeks, I’m not sitting here in the dark! As well as lighting we use them for the HD recording sat box, telly, fridge, Nespresso machine, toaster, electric kettle, fan oven (gas flame, electric fan), Dyson, numerous chargers for 2x iPhones 2x iPads, 2 x laptops, electric blanket (in the coldest weather) as well as the usual pumps. But yes, apart from that we don’t use them.

But nine weeks out of 52 with the other 43 in the year on a float charge is hardly taxing them is it? Not trying to be funny but my batteries are cycled about 350 times a year so surely when used they will wear out more quickly?

[cereal tiller]

38 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

But nine weeks out of 52 with the other 43 in the year on a float charge is hardly taxing them is it? Not trying to be funny but my batteries are cycled about 350 times a year so surely when used they will wear out more quickly?

Spot on Tim ,we keep hearing about peoples Batteries lasting X or Y Years which is meaning less.Days off Grid is more like it!

[nicknorman]

37 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

But nine weeks out of 52 with the other 43 in the year on a float charge is hardly taxing them is it? Not trying to be funny but my batteries are cycled about 350 times a year so surely when used they will wear out more quickly?

Well I didn’t mention all the other weeks we’d been out earlier in the year. We typically use the boat about 115 days a year, nearly all out of the marina. But we do cruise, we don’t just sit on the boat cluttering up the towpath!

But yes, of course your batteries will be cycled more and thus last less. But then again when out and about we use our batteries hard. We don’t sit in the dark tickling a glow worm hoping to make it glow brighter!

[WotEver]

7 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

We don’t sit in the dark tickling a glow worm hoping to make it glow brighter!

I’ve often wondered, does this work? And where, especially, does he prefer to be tickled?

[tree monkey]

8 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I’ve often wondered, does this work? And where, especially, does he prefer to be tickled?

Theres a small spot just between its front legs, need small fingers though to be really successful

[dmr]

50 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

But nine weeks out of 52 with the other 43 in the year on a float charge is hardly taxing them is it? Not trying to be funny but my batteries are cycled about 350 times a year so surely when used they will wear out more quickly?

We have been sort-off off-gridders for 8 or 9 years now. We go to Liverpool every year so get 10 days plugged in, we dry dock at Stone once every three years and get plugged in, and have a week or two in Cornwall every January when we put the boat into a marina and get sort off plugged in. Without doubt, for us, Trojans are the way to go (unless you have space for Full tractions). I reckon that Lithium will take over at some stage, maybe in my lifetime, maybe not, I'm only 60 but I do drink a bit too much

................Dave

 

[MtB]

On 25/10/2017 at 14:53, smileypete said:

dunno what happened there, ISTR they were cheaper than Trojans at the time, maybe they were newly introduced and not quite right. There looks to be a lot of badge engineering (or stickering!) with the mid range batts.

 

They were only a bit cheaper than Trojans (about 10%)  and clearly designed as a direct competitor. Identical voltage, dimensions, terminals, etc. Even the removable caps are interchangeable with Trojan caps. 

Two things went wrong.

Firstly it took about three months for me to really notice the performance degradation and actually find time to investigate it. Board consensus was it was my fault for believing the SmartGauge when it says 100% SoC. Opinion was they were probably barely reaching 90% so I'd been consistently undercharging.

Second thing that emerged was discovering my SG over-reads the battery voltage by about 0.4v. This meant that I was actually probably only ever charging to about 80%. By this time four months had slipped by and the weather was freezing for weeks on end (as were my batteries) and my attempts at desulphating them were spectacularly ineffective. 

Come the summer and daily desulphating by the solar for six months made no difference either. But to root cause was undercharging through combination of ignorance and a faulty SmartGauge.

[Dr Bob]

46 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

They were only a bit cheaper than Trojans (about 10%)  and clearly designed as a direct competitor. Identical voltage, dimensions, terminals, etc. Even the removable caps are interchangeable with Trojan caps. 

Two things went wrong.

Firstly it took about three months for me to really notice the performance degradation and actually find time to investigate it. Board consensus was it was my fault for believing the SmartGauge when it says 100% SoC. Opinion was they were probably barely reaching 90% so I'd been consistently undercharging.

Second thing that emerged was discovering my SG over-reads the battery voltage by about 0.4v. This meant that I was actually probably only ever charging to about 80%. By this time four months had slipped by and the weather was freezing for weeks on end (as were my batteries) and my attempts at desulphating them were spectacularly ineffective. 

Come the summer and daily desulphating by the solar for six months made no difference either. But to root cause was undercharging through combination of ignorance and a faulty SmartGauge.

Smart Gauges are never wrong...are they?

[dor]

2 hours ago, WotEver said:

I’ve often wondered, does this work? And where, especially, does he prefer to be tickled?

I am pretty sure that the beetles that light up are females, so it should be "where does she prefer to be tickled?"

And if you don't know the answer to that by now... .

[Dr Bob]

2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

 We don’t sit in the dark tickling a glow worm hoping to make it glow brighter!

None of the worms I have ever dug up have glowed. Am I doing something wrong?

[nicknorman]

2 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

None of the worms I have ever dug up have glowed. Am I doing something wrong?

Yes. You have never sat in a pitch dark room tickling them.

[dmr]

Just now, Dr Bob said:

Smart Gauges are never wrong...are they?

The Smartgage is a unique instrument for monitoring battery capacity during discharge, this is because it measures voltage. Its not so good during charging, it makes a half decent guess which I quite like but is counter-productive for those who take it literally. This misled Mike for 3 months by which time his batteries were sulphated beyond repair. Smartgage should have had more thought put into its charging approximation but it didn't, that's sad but not a show stopper.

.............Dave

 

[Dr Bob]

9 minutes ago, dmr said:

The Smartgage is a unique instrument for monitoring battery capacity during discharge, this is because it measures voltage. Its not so good during charging, it makes a half decent guess which I quite like but is counter-productive for those who take it literally. This misled Mike for 3 months by which time his batteries were sulphated beyond repair. Smartgage should have had more thought put into its charging approximation but it didn't, that's sad but not a show stopper.

.............Dave

 

So half the time they are good and half the time they are not. Does that mean they are right on SoC 50% of the time? 

[WotEver]

8 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

So half the time they are good and half the time they are not. Does that mean they are right on SoC 50% of the time? 

No, it means that they are right 100% of the time that it matters and up to 10% wrong when you should be monitoring something else. 

33 minutes ago, dor said:

I am pretty sure that the beetles that light up are females, so it should be "where does she prefer to be tickled?"

And if you don't know the answer to that by now... .

My bad

[dmr]

3 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

So half the time they are good and half the time they are not. Does that mean they are right on SoC 50% of the time? 

So how do you know the SoC of your batteries? When I charge mine I look at current, when they are discharging I look at the Smartgage, I've done this for a fair few years now and it works for me.  We have a barometer too, that tells me barometric pressure but it don't tell me the depth of the water under the boat, should I send it back for recalibration?

..........Dave (with lots and lots of academic qualifications that are irrelevant to liveaboard boating    )

[Dr Bob]

9 minutes ago, dmr said:

 We have a barometer too, that tells me barometric pressure but it don't tell me the depth of the water under the boat, should I send it back for recalibration?

I don't think barometers have ever claimed to predict depth of water under a boat? Have they? 

16 minutes ago, WotEver said:

No, it means that they are right 100% of the time that it matters and up to 10% wrong when you should be monitoring something else. 

That's what I said, they are right 50% of the time ( the important bit) and not right the other 50% when you can be doing other things

[MtB]

On 25/10/2017 at 22:34, Dr Bob said:

Smart Gauges are never wrong...are they?

 

Well I actually have TWO SmartGauges on the same battery bank. Both are wrong.

Right now they are each giving starkly different readings. 32% and 45% SoC. 

The true SoC is.... what?

The battery voltage is 24.84. The lower reading SG says 24.6v and the higher reading SG says 25.1 right now. 

Therefore you are right. The SmartGauge is never wrong. 

[cereal tiller]

7 hours ago, dor said:

I am pretty sure that the beetles that light up are females, so it should be "where does she prefer to be tickled?"

And if you don't know the answer to that by now... .

The bit to be Tickled,is it called the OHMEN?

[Phil Ambrose]

6 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Well I actually have TWO SmartGauges on the same battery bank. Both are wrong.

Right now they are each giving starkly different readings. 32% and 45% SoC. 

The true SoC is.... what?

The battery voltage is 24.84. The lower reading SG says 24.6v and the higher reading SG says 25.1 right now. 

Therefore you are right. The SmartGauge is never wrong. 

I thought that 2 wrongs didn't make a right.

Phil 

[Dave_P]

17 hours ago, dmr said:

Yes, there are various intelligent battery chargers that have an equalisation function that should do exactly what you want, at a price. As a cheap and cheerful alternative you could get one of these:

http://www.halfords.com/workshop-tools/garage-equipment/battery-chargers-jump-starters/ring-rcb320-battery-charger

As long as your domestic current draw is not too high this unregulated charger will creep right up to 15 volts (on boost setting), maybe even higher (I cant remember the exact voltage). It won't go into float so its down to you to turn it off when things are done, not the sort of charger to leave on permanently.

Ive got one of these "used only once" that you can have for half price, but as I said before, we are now up North for the winter (on the River right now) and wont be in the Brum area till the spring or summer.

There is some potential for battery rejuvenation but its time consuming and has a limited success rate so not a business I would won't to try, this is why garages always just fit new ones.

..............Dave

You've got a deal.  Let me know when you're back down my way.    Just to check:  I would connect this directly to my batteries and plug it into my generator or shoreline hook-up and let it run for around 6 hours?  And do this, maybe monthly?

[smileypete]

14 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Not trying to be funny but my batteries are cycled about 350 times a year so surely when used they will wear out more quickly?

Maybe...

But if they're only being taken down about 10% then fully charged, that's the equivalent of 70 'normal' discharge cycles.

If you were not heavily relying on the Travelpower then batt life would be quite different, unless you had a boatful of them...

Edited October 26, 2017 by smileypete