New batteries - problem

[mrsmelly]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Still battling on. 

Solar has been chasrgeing them to 100% then equalising them to within an inch of their life every day since March. No improvemnt. Now they are down to about one third of their badge capacity but that's fine, I can charge them whenever want now. Whatever the time of night!

  Batteries are a total pain innitt.

[cereal tiller]

55 minutes ago, smileypete said:

Strange. ISTR they're not actually Trojans but some other brand.

Got any details of charge/eg voltage, eq tail current, SG readings, water use?

6 Volt Yuasa? 225 AH

Edited October 24, 2017 by cereal tiller

[MtB]

12 minutes ago, cereal tiller said:

6 Volt Yuasa? 225 HR.

 

No. Mine have reams of numbers. Ive posted what they are exactly, loads of times. 

13 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

  Batteries are a total pain innitt.

Not when you have a Wispergen!

[nicknorman]

24 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

  Batteries are a total pain innitt.

Not when you have lovely Trojans. Proper ones, mind!

[smileypete]

28 minutes ago, cereal tiller said:

6 Volt Yuasa? 225 HR.

Powerline?

MtB has lost so much interest he's forgotten what they are?

[MtB]

Just now, smileypete said:

Powerline?

MtB has lost so much interest he's forgotten what they are?

 

Well yes. The battery model is about 20 characters long. And I'm in one of the houses tonight, not the bote so I can't go and look (yet again).

[smileypete]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Well yes. The battery model is about 20 characters long. And I'm in one of the houses tonight, not the bote so I can't go and look (yet again).

Ah, OK.

[cereal tiller]

1 minute ago, smileypete said:

Ah, OK.

Yuasa 225 AMP HOUR.    SIX VOLT

Edited October 24, 2017 by cereal tiller

[WotEver]

7 minutes ago, cereal tiller said:

Yuasa 225 AMP HOUR.    SIX VOLT

That’s 26 characters including the spaces

[cereal tiller]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yes, as I said, Trojanoids. 

And as you said, no data because I've lost interest. Gave it my best shot which resulted in abject failure. So now I have a Whispergen so I can charge at night.

You did Mention that you had difficulty in cooling the whispergen? Extra Skin Tanks would solve that problem, trouble is that you could wake up in the morning with fully charged Batteries but the Water in the Canal will have Boiled away!

And the Bitumen on the Boat's Hull will have Dripped off?

Edited October 24, 2017 by cereal tiller

[cereal tiller]

9 minutes ago, WotEver said:

That’s 26 characters including the spaces

Exactly!

[Dave_P]

5 hours ago, WotEver said:

Benchtop power supply is often suggested as the best way if the charger can’t be adjusted high enough. 

I have no idea what that means.

[MtB]

15 minutes ago, cereal tiller said:

You did Mention that you had difficulty in cooling the whispergen?

 Not really. 'Difficulty' is your word not mine. 

I commented I have 2kw of cooling for test purposes when the MI state 5kw. This definitely does not work for more than half an hour or so, so I'm adding more cooling. 

[Dave_P]

3 hours ago, dmr said:

You get to what looks like 100% then charge for another couple of hours or so, or assuming you don't have sealed batteries then even better you charge at a higher voltage. This is effectively equalisation!!!!

If you charge from the engines alternator then increased charging voltages can be got by using an Adverc or the Sterling equivalent. This is exactly why these devices were invented though they are now less popular as Gibbo started the story that they are not needed on modern alternators.

These alternator controllers will increase the voltage in Winter (cold) which is when sulphation is most likely. In my case I have done a little mod to the Adverc so I can adjust the charge voltage further. In summer when we cruise lots I drop it to 14.6-14.7 to reduce water loss. In winter I go for about 15 and if there are signs of sulphation a little higher still. It also lets me equalise at about 15.5.

..............Dave

I have an adverc.  I have no clue what it does.  My question again, is what do I do, to put a 15v charge into my batteries?  A plain english answer would be most appreciated.

[dmr]

17 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

I have an adverc.  I have no clue what it does.  My question again, is what do I do, to put a 15v charge into my batteries?  A plain english answer would be most appreciated.

As plain as I can do....

First, do you have "open" lead acids that can take a higher voltage?, its not so safe if they are sealed for life.

Second, do you have some means of measuring the charging voltage actually at the battery terminals?

What is the charging voltage now ?   you must measure this when the batteries are almost fully charged?

There is a complication......If the Adverc is working it will switch between two voltages, about 0.5v different, so you need to take measurement every ten mins or so, maybe for up to an hour, to spot these two voltages.

To increase the voltage you have two options.......

1 Send the Adverc back to Adverc and ask them to do it

2 (much better and easy)   Get the top off the Adverc, just 4 little screws, locate the adjustment at the corner of the circuit board and carefully adjust it, whilst the engine is running, to get the voltage that you want. Take care as its the higher of the two voltages that you need to set.

No good doing this unless the batteries are almost fully charged else the voltages will all be too low.

The really nice thing to do is to get somebody who can solder to replace that little adjuster with a little knob on the outside of the Adverc.

Please PM with any questions.

W were in Brum just a couple of weeks ago and I could have helped with this, but now up at Anderton going on to the Weaver in the morning.

...............Dave

[smileypete]

1 hour ago, cereal tiller said:

Yuasa 225 AMP HOUR.    SIX VOLT

Righto, they should be pretty decent.

To be fair it does sound like MtB has had a decent crack at reviving them, and it's time to move on to something else....

[Dave_P]

8 hours ago, dmr said:

As plain as I can do....

First, do you have "open" lead acids that can take a higher voltage?, its not so safe if they are sealed for life.

Second, do you have some means of measuring the charging voltage actually at the battery terminals?

What is the charging voltage now ?   you must measure this when the batteries are almost fully charged?

There is a complication......If the Adverc is working it will switch between two voltages, about 0.5v different, so you need to take measurement every ten mins or so, maybe for up to an hour, to spot these two voltages.

To increase the voltage you have two options.......

1 Send the Adverc back to Adverc and ask them to do it

2 (much better and easy)   Get the top off the Adverc, just 4 little screws, locate the adjustment at the corner of the circuit board and carefully adjust it, whilst the engine is running, to get the voltage that you want. Take care as its the higher of the two voltages that you need to set.

No good doing this unless the batteries are almost fully charged else the voltages will all be too low.

The really nice thing to do is to get somebody who can solder to replace that little adjuster with a little knob on the outside of the Adverc.

Please PM with any questions.

W were in Brum just a couple of weeks ago and I could have helped with this, but now up at Anderton going on to the Weaver in the morning.

...............Dave

 

Thanks for this Dave.  I haven't been in Brum for a couple of months but will be back some time before Christmas.

1.  I have batteries which I can top up.

2.  I'm not sure.  I have a multimeter but I usually check the voltage when charging by looking at my solar controller display.  It shows a bit over 14v when the engine is running (70a alternator) or the battery charger (40a Sterling multi-stage) is on (even when it's dark).  I don't think I've ever seen it read more than 14.5v.

3.  See above.

I still don't know what the adverc is or does.  To me it's a black box which just sits there.  I wouldn't even know if it's working.

"Take care as its the higher of the two voltages that you need to set." - I don't know what this means?  Two voltages?

"The really nice thing to do is to get somebody who can solder to replace that little adjuster with a little knob on the outside of the Adverc." - can you expand on this?  Why would I need to replace an adjuster?  Is my adjuster broken?

[WotEver]

7 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

Take care as its the higher of the two voltages that you need to set." - I don't know what this means?  Two voltages?

 

8 hours ago, dmr said:

What is the charging voltage now ?   you must measure this when the batteries are almost fully charged?

There is a complication......If the Adverc is working it will switch between two voltages, about 0.5v different, so you need to take measurement every ten mins or so, maybe for up to an hour, to spot these two voltages.

 

[dor]

18 hours ago, smileypete said:

ETA caravan club article with teardown of 'el cheapos', easy to see that 'el cheapest' can be a shot in the dark..

https://www.caravanclub.co.uk/media/13871919/ccmnovtechnical.pdf?type=archive

Interesting article.  Does anyone recognise the two batteries that are shown as being 'good' - the Varta and Banner ones?

 

[Alan de Enfield]

35 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

Why would I need to replace an adjuster?  Is my adjuster broken?

The current (existing) adjuster is inside the ’box’ and requires disassembly to get to it, you can remove this adjuster and fit another adjuster on the OUTSIDE of the box so it is easy to make adjustments.

[nicknorman]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The current (existing) adjuster is inside the ’box’ and requires disassembly to get to it, you can remove this adjuster and fit another adjuster on the OUTSIDE of the box so it is easy to make adjustments.

And the point of that is that the optimum voltage is dependant on battery temperature. So you’d want to turn it up in winter and down in summer.

[nicknorman]

45 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

 

Thanks for this Dave.  I haven't been in Brum for a couple of months but will be back some time before Christmas.

1.  I have batteries which I can top up.

2.  I'm not sure.  I have a multimeter but I usually check the voltage when charging by looking at my solar controller display.  It shows a bit over 14v when the engine is running (70a alternator) or the battery charger (40a Sterling multi-stage) is on (even when it's dark).  I don't think I've ever seen it read more than 14.5v.

3.  See above.

I still don't know what the adverc is or does.  To me it's a black box which just sits there.  I wouldn't even know if it's working.

"Take care as its the higher of the two voltages that you need to set." - I don't know what this means?  Two voltages?

"The really nice thing to do is to get somebody who can solder to replace that little adjuster with a little knob on the outside of the Adverc." - can you expand on this?  Why would I need to replace an adjuster?  Is my adjuster broken?

The Adverc over-rides the alternator’s own voltage regulator. It helps to keep the voltage and current higher for longer during charging. It also has an algorithm whereby it switches between a higher charging voltage and a lower resting/recovery voltage. This is supposed to optimise charging since whilst the higher voltage stuffs more current into the batteries, it also creates more bubbles that “insulates” the plates from the acid. The period of lower voltage allows the bubbles to disperse. Whether than is a benefit or snake oil, I’m not sure.

As to your comment that you wouldn’t know if it’s working, well it sounds to me as though it isn’t working, unless you can see the periodic change of voltage during charging and a mostly high-ish charge voltage.

[Dave_P]

8 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

The Adverc over-rides the alternator’s own voltage regulator. It helps to keep the voltage and current higher for longer during charging. It also has an algorithm whereby it switches between a higher charging voltage and a lower resting/recovery voltage. This is supposed to optimise charging since whilst the higher voltage stuffs more current into the batteries, it also creates more bubbles that “insulates” the plates from the acid. The period of lower voltage allows the bubbles to disperse. Whether than is a benefit or snake oil, I’m not sure.

As to your comment that you wouldn’t know if it’s working, well it sounds to me as though it isn’t working, unless you can see the periodic change of voltage during charging and a mostly high-ish charge voltage.

1.  How do i check for sure if it's working?

2.  How do I get it fixed if it needs it?

3. Does the adverc do anything when I'm charging with the battery charger?

[WotEver]

20 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

1.  How do i check for sure if it's working?

2.  How do I get it fixed if it needs it?

3. Does the adverc do anything when I'm charging with the battery charger?

1. By measuring the voltage as previously described. 

2. Unlikely to be achievable. Unless it’s incorrectly wired then failure usually means replacement. 

3. No. It raises the alternator voltage as described by Nick

[cuthound]

9 hours ago, smileypete said:

Righto, they should be pretty decent.

To be fair it does sound like MtB has had a decent crack at reviving them, and it's time to move on to something else....

I agree, Yuasa are used by many commrrcial companies who rely on batteries for their livelihood.

My experience is that heavily sulphated batteries never fully recover their capacity.