New batteries - problem

[smileypete]

1 hour ago, WotEver said:

So... are ‘cheapos’ even lower quality these days than they used to be? Has something changed? Why do they suffer so badly in some boats but not in others with seemingly identical treatment?

Don't think there's an easy answer for most boaters except to buy reasonable 'el cheapos'; eg Numax, Varta, Banner, and baby them with frequent full charges, at least initially.

Trojans should last much longer but may not survive a lack of longer term interest, especially if charging issues occur.

ETA caravan club article with teardown of 'el cheapos', easy to see that 'el cheapest' can be a shot in the dark..

https://www.caravanclub.co.uk/media/13871919/ccmnovtechnical.pdf?type=archive

Edited October 24, 2017 by smileypete

[Dave_P]

2 hours ago, dmr said:

I don't have a genny but if I did I would be very tempted to go for a gas rather than petrol (a vintage Lister stationary diesel would be my other choice )

The key to battery care is getting to that 100% once in a while and its not easy. After a week there will be some light sulphation and so the battery will charge up to 95% or whatever but give Every indication that its got to 100, you gotta charge it till it looks full then find away to get a bit more in.

In your case with the bad access I would try to muddle through for a couple of years or so on cheapo sealed leisures, replacing them every year if needed, then take a serious look at the price of Lithiums.

...................Dave

How do I find a way to get a bit more in?

[Johny London]

9 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Why do you find servicing so expensive? what engine is it. My Isuzu costs peanuts I change the oil every 200 hours which is a twenty minute job and costs £4.15 pence for the filter and about £9 quid for the oil of good quality or if I pay too much about 15 quid hardly an expensive thing to do so what else do you do that costs so much? Please don't tell me you buy oil and filters anywhere the word " marine " is used?

I'm not sure what to buy really but I'll keep the boxes from what I have now.

I needed 2x5l oils (6-7 litres for the engine and a litre or so for the gearbox, I'll have a bit left towards next time. Those came to £53. The air filter was £12.50, the oil filter £12.95. Plus £13,27 vat came to £79.64. That was from Lee Valley Marina. It's never much cheaper. The fuel filters are usually about £25.

I've no idea where anyone could get presumably 5l oil for £9, not unless you have a time traveling account with Halfords

If I can figure out what it all is I might try my luck at a car place. It's a C anal line, 42hp.

[mrsmelly]

19 minutes ago, Johny London said:

I'm not sure what to buy really but I'll keep the boxes from what I have now.

I needed 2x5l oils (6-7 litres for the engine and a litre or so for the gearbox, I'll have a bit left towards next time. Those came to £53. The air filter was £12.50, the oil filter £12.95. Plus £13,27 vat came to £79.64. That was from Lee Valley Marina. It's never much cheaper. The fuel filters are usually about £25.

I've no idea where anyone could get presumably 5l oil for £9, not unless you have a time traveling account with Halfords

If I can figure out what it all is I might try my luck at a car place. It's a C anal line, 42hp.

Right so always completely FORGET that marinas, chandlers etc exist when it comes to engine servicing they are always a place of last resort. Get the numbers of your filters you now use and go to a MOTOR factors definitely NOT halfrauds and buy from them ie my oil fiters are 15 squid at chandlers and £4.15 at the motor factors in Banbury so I buy about 6 or so each visit. air filters similar. They can cross reference any number of filter.  Oil, last lot I bought on line black Friday last year it was good quality from Unipart at about £9 quid a 5 litre pot so I bought six, I need some more on the forthcoming black Friday otherwise I buy from ebay and its delivered to the door for way less than anywhere else just have a look. Luckily my Isuzu only needs one 5 litre pot per oil change and uses zero between changes.

Just checked ebay and quickly found 15/40 mineral oil for 25 squids for two by 5 litre tubs with free delivery against you 53 squids  of course it doesn't say " Marine " or some such cows droppings on the tin.

Edited October 24, 2017 by mrsmelly
addition

[cuthound]

14 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

But more seriously, have you checked the calibration of your SmartGauge? I have two which were MILES out straight from the factory.

I may be mistaken, but I thought the SG measured voltage, not distance. 

[WotEver]

42 minutes ago, cuthound said:

I may be mistaken, but I thought the SG measured voltage, not distance. 

That’s where he’s been going wrong. 

1 hour ago, Dave_P said:

How do I find a way to get a bit more in?

Raise the voltage a bit. Or even a lot, depending on where you start. 

[Dave_P]

16 minutes ago, WotEver said:

 

Raise the voltage a bit. Or even a lot, depending on where you start. 

How?

[Keeping Up]

4 hours ago, WotEver said:

So... are ‘cheapos’ even lower quality these days than they used to be? Has something changed? Why do they suffer so badly in some boats but not in others with seemingly identical treatment?

I've been asking myself that question more and more often recently. I used to reckon on 4-5 years' life from my batteries, then it went down to 3 years, and recently I struggle to get 2 years.

I wonder to what extent it is the result of the manufacturers adding loads of calcium to prevent gassing (even to the non-sealed types). The gassing was good for eliminating sulphation, and equalisation, but nowadays you can't get some batteries up to a high enough voltage without destroying the on-board equipment unless you disconnect them first. For example my last set of Varta's needed 16.5v which was way above the limit for most of my 12v kit.

The other thing I wonder about is the increased power of modern alternators. My old engine had a 70 amp alternator, its replacement from 3 years ago has a 170 Amp alternator, which is more than 40 amps per battery. I don't think they like that much up 'em

 

3 hours ago, smileypete said:

Don't think there's an easy answer for most boaters except to buy reasonable 'el cheapos'; eg Numax, Varta, Banner, and baby them with frequent full charges, at least initially.

 

I got a new set of 'very' cheapos earlier this year, and after a month of care and molltycoddling they were still almost useless and I got them changed under guarantee for a 'reasonable' set; luckily my supplier didn't even make me pay the difference in price. But after 3 months the replacements are down to less than 70% capacity, despite being charged to about 95% every single day and having a full 8-hour run at least twice a week. I worked out that in addition to travelling an average of 5 hours per day this summer, I also spent an average of between 2 and 3 additional hours just charging the batteries; the amount of extra diesel per year would probably cost as much as a new set of batteries.

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Dave_P said:

How?

Benchtop power supply is often suggested as the best way if the charger can’t be adjusted high enough. 

[dmr]

4 hours ago, Dave_P said:

How do I find a way to get a bit more in?

You get to what looks like 100% then charge for another couple of hours or so, or assuming you don't have sealed batteries then even better you charge at a higher voltage. This is effectively equalisation!!!!

If you charge from the engines alternator then increased charging voltages can be got by using an Adverc or the Sterling equivalent. This is exactly why these devices were invented though they are now less popular as Gibbo started the story that they are not needed on modern alternators.

These alternator controllers will increase the voltage in Winter (cold) which is when sulphation is most likely. In my case I have done a little mod to the Adverc so I can adjust the charge voltage further. In summer when we cruise lots I drop it to 14.6-14.7 to reduce water loss. In winter I go for about 15 and if there are signs of sulphation a little higher still. It also lets me equalise at about 15.5.

..............Dave

[smileypete]

1 hour ago, Keeping Up said:

I got a new set of 'very' cheapos earlier this year, and after a month of care and molltycoddling they were still almost useless and I got them changed under guarantee for a 'reasonable' set; luckily my supplier didn't even make me pay the difference in price. But after 3 months the replacements are down to less than 70% capacity, despite being charged to about 95% every single day and having a full 8-hour run at least twice a week. I worked out that in addition to travelling an average of 5 hours per day this summer, I also spent an average of between 2 and 3 additional hours just charging the batteries; the amount of extra diesel per year would probably cost as much as a new set of batteries.

For reasonable el cheapos that are failing maybe try another brand of similar quality, or try some careful and responsible EQ charging to about 15.6V, as Varta suggested.

For that I'd prefer a charge source with a low current limit like a small bench supply or solar panel; with a high power charge source like an alternator or charger it would be possible for the current to rise very high in the case of a fault, so would need very careful and responsible monitoring.

Gassing is caused by antimony from the plates/grids dissolving into the acid as the batt ages and wears, make of that what you will.

Edited October 24, 2017 by smileypete

[dmr]

6 hours ago, WotEver said:

I agree with you almost completely. The ‘almost’ part comes from observing that a fair number of boaters are seeing very poor performance from their ‘el cheapos’ when following that regime. Take Nick’s example: two lots of cheap batteries both of which died pretty quickly despite a reasonable charging regime. He changed to Trojans and his problems went away. 

So... are ‘cheapos’ even lower quality these days than they used to be? Has something changed? Why do they suffer so badly in some boats but not in others with seemingly identical treatment?

The post from Keeping Up has some very good ideas about what might have changed. I also suspect that there is a lot of "positive feedback" in the undercharge-sulphation-more undercharge syndrome so that very small changes or even single lapses in the charge regime can make a very big difference. I do feel that Trojans can take a lot more abuse and still recover with a good charge/equalise than cheapos can, but this is not a very scientific observation as I have very limited experienced of equalising cheapos.

Another possible factor is that there are a lot more people becoming liveaboards, and learning from other fairly recent liveaboards rather than old hands, both in real life and on this forum.

................Dave

[Keeping Up]

2 minutes ago, smileypete said:

For reasonable el cheapos that are failing maybe try another brand of similar quality, or try some careful and responsible EQ charging to about 15.6V, as Varta suggested.

For that I'd prefer a charge source with a low current limit like a small bench supply or solar panel; with a high power charge source like an alternator or charger it would be possible for the current to rise very high in the case of a fault so would need very careful and responsible monitoring.

I found that 15.6v was no use at all on the Vartas  which needed at least 16.5v (judging by the tail current which even at 16v was less than 50mA per battery). I prolonged their life by splitting the bank in 2 and using a variable voltage variable current bench supply from the inverter on one pair to charge the other pair. I guess I'll try the same on the latest Exide set but from their performance I don't feel that confident.

[smileypete]

21 minutes ago, Keeping Up said:

I found that 15.6v was no use at all on the Vartas  which needed at least 16.5v (judging by the tail current which even at 16v was less than 50mA per battery). I prolonged their life by splitting the bank in 2 and using a variable voltage variable current bench supply from the inverter on one pair to charge the other pair. I guess I'll try the same on the latest Exide set but from their performance I don't feel that confident.

Ah OK. Sounds like a good scheme but a bit of a hassle to fit 2 isolators I s'pose...

Another poss could be to find out what brand/type a local hire fleet uses, they're not going to want to use something too fragile...

ETA: If charging an isolated batt from another batt(s), then one of those ~£10 600W converters from Ebay would also do:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-DC-600W-10-60V-to-12-80V-Boost-Converter-Step-up-Module-car-Power-Supply-SU-/282585732686

Edited October 24, 2017 by smileypete

[nicknorman]

12 minutes ago, smileypete said:

Ah OK. Sounds like a good scheme but a bit of a hassle to fit 2 isolators I s'pose...

Another poss could be to find out what brand/type a local hire fleet uses, they're not going to want to use something too fragile...

I thought hire fleets these days didn’t fit batteries, they just told their hirers to run their engines 24/7. Or maybe that’s just the impression I get? 

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, smileypete said:

Gassing is caused by antimony from the plates/grids dissolving into the acid as the batt ages and wears, make of that what you will.

Do you have a link to support that statement or was the smiley to indicate it was in jest?

My understanding is that gassing is caused by the charge voltage electrlysing the water in the electrolyte to produce oxygen and hydrogen.

Antimony is alloyed eith lead to strengthen the plates and improve charge acceptance which results in more gassing and thus electrolyte loss.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, smileypete said:

 

ETA: If charging an isolated batt from another batt(s), then one of those ~£10 600W converters from Ebay would also do:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-DC-600W-10-60V-to-12-80V-Boost-Converter-Step-up-Module-car-Power-Supply-SU-/282585732686

 

A word of warning. I used one of these last winter to aggressively equalise my set of failing Trojanoids (unsuccessfully). They need a careful eye keeping on them. The output voltage subsides with time so one needs to keep adjusting the pots upwards. Then next time you use it unless you remember to turn the pots down to minimum and start calibrating again from scratch, the on board fuse blows.  

[mrsmelly]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

I thought hire fleets these days didn’t fit batteries, they just told their hirers to run their engines 24/7. Or maybe that’s just the impression I get? 

In reality Nick hire fleets are now stupid enough to fit bloomin inverters instead of just telling people its a boating holiday, many now even have wi if  yes so do I but I aint a hobby boater let alone a one week in a lifetime boater. During showround they are told not to use them much and basically only with ENGINE running  and do NOT use a hairdryer for the teenage daughters and missus and what does the hirer do  then leave every light on end to end and the telly and six laptops and six mobile phones all charging with the eber running and the engine off  There is a huge pile of used batteries at Heyford ( and elsewhere ) twice a year.

[smileypete]

13 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

A word of warning. I used one of these last winter to aggressively equalise my set of failing Trojanoids (unsuccessfully). They need a careful eye keeping on them. The output voltage subsides with time so one needs to keep adjusting the pots upwards. Then next time you use it unless you remember to turn the pots down to minimum and start calibrating again from scratch, the on board fuse blows.  

Sure, their design means that if the output voltage is dragged below the input voltage, the current regulation doesn't work, hence the fuse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boost_converter

So they should only be used on an isolated batt, when the normal charge cycle has completed. Could probably get around this with a £3 50A bridge rectifier, one diode feeds the module, the other bypasses it.

Anyway for eq'ing unhappy Trojans in winter, I'd just set the current to C/30 then set the voltage quite high, just charge like that for a few hours until they bubble nicely. I did suggest to you to use solar in the summer time but it seemed like you'd lost interest by then.

 

Edited October 24, 2017 by smileypete

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

 There is a huge pile of used batteries at Heyford

 

Why? They are worth a tenner each in scrap, as nay fule kno...

2 minutes ago, smileypete said:

I did suggest to you to use solar in the summer time but it seemed like you'd lost interest by then.

 

 

Quite the opposite. My 560W of solar has been equalising for an hour a day all through summer, with furious bubbling. 

No improvement.

[mrsmelly]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Why? They are worth a tenner each in scrap, as nay fule kno...

Yes I know and they use bloomin dozens. Someone comes and takes em away with an irish accent for very little money. To be honest I cant be aresed weighing batteries in but I suppose a pikey load is worth a few quid but I still couldn't be arsed.

[smileypete]

6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Why? They are worth a tenner each in scrap, as nay fule kno...

 

Quite the opposite. My 560W of solar has been equalising for an hour a day all through summer, with furious bubbling. 

No improvement.

Strange. ISTR they're not actually Trojans but some other brand.

Got any details of charge/eg voltage, eq tail current, SG readings, water use?

[MtB]

9 minutes ago, smileypete said:

Strange. ISTR they're not actually Trojans but some other brand.

Got any details of charge/eg voltage, eq tail current, SG readings, water use?

 

Yes, as I said, Trojanoids. 

And as you said, no data because I've lost interest. Gave it my best shot which resulted in abject failure. So now I have a Whispergen so I can charge at night.

[mrsmelly]

5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yes, as I said, Trojanoids. 

And as you said, no data because I've lost interest. Gave it my best shot which resulted in abject failure. So now I have a Whispergen so I can charge at night.

Mike did you renew the batteries again or are you just battling on with the Trojanoids?

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Mike did you renew the batteries again or are you just battling on with the Trojanoids?

 

Still battling on. 

Solar has been chasrgeing them to 100% then equalising them to within an inch of their life every day since March. No improvemnt. Now they are down to about one third of their badge capacity but that's fine, I can charge them whenever want now. Whatever the time of night!