Bridgewater Canal

[Paul C]

It's frustrating that even the IWA press release doesn't make this explicit, but - given that most boaters aren't going to take more than 2-3 days to traverse the Bridgewater - it does sound as if people are being asked to pay £40 if returning within 28 days regardless of whether they've 'used up' their free 7 days.

 

This just makes no sense. Why on earth should you be able to cruise from Preston Brook to Leigh and back for free over the course of 7 consecutive days, but have to pay £40 to make the same trip in the same length of time if split into two parts by a trip to Liverpool, or Wigan, or Plank Lane for that matter? It's not as if you're making additional use of the Bridgewater.

 

You could say that it makes no sense in having a reciprocal agreement at all; so every passage would need a short term licence, etc. After all, there is no reciprocal agreement for free transit on the River Avon, for example.

[Cheshire cat]

It's pure speculation but I really do think they are wanting to rid themselves of a certain element who have been using facilities for free whether it be at Castlefield or anywhere else. Unfortunately, everyone has to be treated similarly to avoid accusations of victimization.

[David Mack]

 

You could say that it makes no sense in having a reciprocal agreement at all; so every passage would need a short term licence, etc. After all, there is no reciprocal agreement for free transit on the River Avon, for example.

I have been pondering the same point. The reciprocal arrangement has been in existence for a very long time (anyone know how long?), but I do wonder how much it is in either organisation's interest for it to continue, although it is clearly in the interest of CRT and Bridgewater based boaters.

 

The Gold Licence gives you a full year's use of CRT and EA waters for less than the cost of separate licences but are there any other reciprocal deals?

Edited June 7, 2016 by David Mack

[Peter-Bullfinch]

Based in Rufford we transit the Bridgewater often. We have on a number occasions picked up and given a lift to the previous enforcement officer who was a really nice friendly fellow. We enjoyed catching up with tea and cake.

However, in the last year or so we see more and more unmarked, unnamed, and un numbered boats often moored in the same areas of the Bridgewater. I imagine that it is these boats which attract the attention of the current enforcement officer. We don't have any intention of getting a short term licence for our transits because we slip along and make genuine but fairly slow progress. We don't overstay in the hot spots of Leigh, Worsley, Castlefield and Lymm.

We continue to patronise the businesses along the way. Today it was diesel and lifejacket refurbish kit from Thorne Marine and shopped at the little store and PO in Moore. There are lots of moving boats around both hire and private. The Bridgewater is not only a very useful part of the connected system but a joy to use with its generous depth and width and plenty of delightful mooring spots. It's maybe a pity that a tiny number are abusing the canal's welcome and so causing this reaction from the owners.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Peter-Bullfinch

[TheBiscuits]

Everything that needs saying.

 

+1

[magictime]

Based in Rufford we transit the Bridgewater often. We have on a number occasions picked up and given a lift to the previous enforcement officer who was a really nice friendly fellow. We enjoyed catching up with tea and cake.

However, in the last year or so we see more and more unmarked, unnamed, and un numbered boats often moored in the same areas of the Bridgewater. I imagine that it is these boats which attract the attention of the current enforcement officer. We don't have any intention of getting a short term licence for our transits because we slip along and make genuine but fairly slow progress. We don't overstay in the hot spots of Leigh, Worsley, Castlefield and Lymm.

We continue to patronise the businesses along the way. Today it was diesel and lifejacket refurbish kit from Thorne Marine and shopped at the little store and PO in Moore. There are lots of moving boats around both hire and private. The Bridgewater is not only a very useful part of the connected system but a joy to use with its generous depth and width and plenty of delightful mooring spots. It's maybe a pity that a tiny number are abusing the canal's welcome and so causing this reaction from the owners.

 

But according to the IWA - and this is in line with things I've read on this forum - it's not just dodgy 'unmarked, unnamed and unnumbered' boats that are attracting the attention of the EO. Boaters making perfectly legitimate, very short-term use of the canal are being told they need to buy a £40 licence if they make a return journey within 28 days.

 

And I don't see how people abusing the canal's welcome can explain this particular reaction. If Peel wanted to crack down on the sort of behaviour you're talking about, why not (say) allow people to spend 7 consecutive or non-consecutive days on the canal in each period of 30 days, 60 days, or whatever, before requiring them to buy a £40 licence? Chasing licence fees from people simply because they transit the canal twice in a month, even if they only take two or three days each time, seems like a distraction from the real problem if anything.

[mayalld]

 

But according to the IWA - and this is in line with things I've read on this forum - it's not just dodgy 'unmarked, unnamed and unnumbered' boats that are attracting the attention of the EO. Boaters making perfectly legitimate, very short-term use of the canal are being told they need to buy a £40 licence if they make a return journey within 28 days.

 

And I don't see how people abusing the canal's welcome can explain this particular reaction. If Peel wanted to crack down on the sort of behaviour you're talking about, why not (say) allow people to spend 7 consecutive or non-consecutive days on the canal in each period of 30 days, 60 days, or whatever, before requiring them to buy a £40 licence? Chasing licence fees from people simply because they transit the canal twice in a month, even if they only take two or three days each time, seems like a distraction from the real problem if anything.

 

Because that is how it always ends up when somebody pushes the rules to breaking point.

 

A new rule gets introduced that has a fall out far beyond the original miscreants.

 

Yes, it would be "better" if the rule allowed the 7 days to be split into two chunks, but it adds complexity to the enforcement.

 

Peel Holdings have looked at what legitimate use is made of the reciprocal arrangement, and will have concluded that MOST use is for single passages by boats doing the Cheshire Ring, and that very few boats make 2 passages (and yes we have done so ourselves).

 

It would be great if Peel can be convinced to alter the arrangement, but that will be a case of persuasion, rather than demands.

 

By way of a comparison, can anybody give me a definitive answer as to what the reciprocal side is?

 

• How many days?
• Any return limit?
• I know that the reciprocal arrangement is for a limited area, but what are the limits?
  • Barbridge Junction
  • Harecastle North Portal
  • Liverpool docks
  • Presumably there is an eastern limit on the L&L
  • Presumably there is an eastern limit on the Rochdale
  • All of Ashton, Peak Forest and Macc included?
  • Presumably an eastern limit on the HNC

[TheBiscuits]

FOR HOLDERS OF

BRIDGEWATER CANAL LICENCES

Pleasure craft displaying a valid Bridgewater Canal licence can travel as far as the

under mentioned points for periods of up to seven days free of charge.

TRENT AND MERSEY CANAL

From Preston Brook to Harecastle Tunnel.

SHROPSHIRE UNION CANAL

The Middlewich Branch from Middlewich to Barbridge Junction.

LEEDS AND LIVERPOOL CANAL

The Leigh Branch to Wigan, also from Wigan to the bottom of Blackburn Locks

and from Wigan to Burscough.

THE LIVERPOOL LINK

The reciprocal limit has been extended until 31st December 2016 to include the

section of the Leeds and Liverpool Canal between Burscough and Liverpool.

An additionasl 7 days to cruise the Liverpool Link has also been granted by the

Canal and River Trust to those craft Bridgewater Canal craft holding a valid

Bridgewater Canal Licence.

Moorings are limited and all craft wishing to use the Liverpool link must contact

the Canal and River Trust to obtain the necessary booking form and skippers guide

telephone 03030 404040

USE OF THE RIVER WEAVER

Normal charges are payable for the use of the Anderton Lift. The charge

levied to use the Anderton Lift includes the use of the river.

Pleasure Craft displaying a valid 12 Month Canal and River Trust Licence

(including a concessionary 12 month licence) may use the lift free of charge

subject to availability.

All pleasure craft owners wishing to use the lift are advised to book

in advance (a charge may be made for advance booking). Details of

cost and arrangements for the use of the Anderton Lift are available

from the Canal and River Trust telephone number 01606 786777.

[magictime]

Yes, it would be "better" if the rule allowed the 7 days to be split into two chunks, but it adds complexity to the enforcement.

 

It does, but that extra complexity is arguably a benefit to Peel rather than a burden if it helps them to target 'problem' boaters for enforcement action, rather than waste time and put people off visiting by routinely chasing fees from anyone who happens to return within 28 days.

[Richard10002]

It would be simple to allow 14 days in 28 days if a trip to Liverpool has been booked. This would kind of match the CRT concession, although it wouldn't accommodate returns from trips traversing the Bridgewater to elsewhere on the CRT system.

[magictime]

It would be simple to allow 14 days in 28 days if a trip to Liverpool has been booked.

 

I don't understand. What's the rationale for extending the 7 day allowance to 14 days? You don't need to spend any longer on the Bridgewater if you're traversing it on the way to and from Liverpool, than you do if you're on the way to and from Wigan, or Middlewich, or Hebden Bridge, or anywhere else.

[mayalld]

 

I don't understand. What's the rationale for extending the 7 day allowance to 14 days? You don't need to spend any longer on the Bridgewater if you're traversing it on the way to and from Liverpool, than you do if you're on the way to and from Wigan, or Middlewich, or Hebden Bridge, or anywhere else.

 

More to the point, not only has this doubled the time, but instead of "28 days off", it has changed it to "in 28 days", which would lead to people doing 14 days on the Bridgewater and 14 days off.

 

That is the kind of thing that causes them to dig their heels in and say "no".

 

The concept of the reciprocal agreement is that boats should be on their own waters other than for brief periods.

 

For CRT licence holders, it is about enabling a transit route. For Bridgewater licence holders, it is about an extended cruising range.

 

A Bridgewater licence holder can only turn round and come back (or buy a licence to remain or go further afield), so 7 days on 28 off would be fine for them.

 

Double transits of less than 7 days (and more than 7 days from beginning to end) are something that a CRT licence holder may reasonably wish to do.

 

So, the challenge is to design something that;

• Is simple and unambiguous in its requirements
• can be readily measured
• is self-funding

[john6767]

I have been pondering the same point. The reciprocal arrangement has been in existence for a very long time (anyone know how long?), but I do wonder how much it is in either organisation's interest for it to continue, although it is clearly in the interest of CRT and Bridgewater based boaters.

 

The Gold Licence gives you a full year's use of CRT and EA waters for less than the cost of separate licences but are there any other reciprocal deals?

There is a reciprocal arrangement with ANT for the river Avon. ANT licence holders can purchase a CRT licence at reduced cost, CRT licence holders can purchase an ANT licence at reduced cost. The discount is 20% both ways. In addition ANT and CRT both have short term licences available.

 

The Bridgewater arrangement seems to equate to a free 7 day short term licence every 28 days, which is different. At £40 for 7 days the Bridgewater short term licence is less than ANTs which is £50 for 7 days, but I guess you get a lot less from the Bridgewater (never having been) for that.

[Paul C]

How about:

 

1. Scrapping of reciprocal arrangement

2. Pro-rata reduction in CRT and Bridgewater licence fees

3. Some kind of better mechanism to ensure CRT licence holders pay the relevant temporary licence fee; and Bridgewater licence holders pay their relevant temp fees, if they use the others' waterways.

 

Those boaters (ie those who stick to cruising in another geographical area) pay slightly less. Those who would use both, might pay slightly more; and those who abuse the Bridgewater licence rules get stung for greater overall fees.

[Horace42]

If the Peel infrastructure exists to issue £40 licenses to any visiting boater at any time (and police non-compliance ?) then why not issue a simple license to extend the 7 day free period (to a really useful period) by payment of a reasonable fee.that boaters would readily pay, rather than Peel losing all these fees because boaters prefer to avoid paying £40 because it is seen to be unreasonable - and then only collectable by increased vigilance of the EO and then only if they mistimed their trip by a few hours.

 

[mayalld]

If the Peel infrastructure exists to issue £40 licenses to any visiting boater at any time (and police non-compliance ?) then why not issue a simple license to extend the 7 day free period (to a really useful period) by payment of a reasonable fee.that boaters would readily pay, rather than Peel losing all these fees because boaters prefer to avoid paying £40 because it is seen to be unreasonable - and then only collectable by increased vigilance of the EO and then only if they mistimed their trip by a few hours.

 

 

Define "reasonable fee"

 

Peel clearly feel that they are playing host to a lot of boats who pay nothing, and don't wish to do that.

 

You need to keep in mind that when they charge £40 for a 1 week licence, a proportion of that cost is taken up by the admin side of processing short term licences.

 

If they were to charge (say) £10 for a short term licence, it probably wouldn't cover the costs of issuing the licence.

[Paul C]

Part of the issue is the £40 charge factors in:

 

1. The expense of enforcing this charge, ie manpower

2. The fact that only a proportion of those due to pay, do pay (ie without the manpower in 1, its possible to sneak through)

 

There's no easy solution to the above. There's always the less desired solution of locking the 2 locks which are at the junctions, but there's still the flat junction between the Leeds & Liverpool to deal with. And padlocking locks to daytime (or would it be a particular time of day, with a lunch hour, etc) would make the Preston Brook Tunnel a real issue, with the potential of boats stacking up in the tunnel queueing (and thus no boats going through the other way etc...)

 

 

So we're left with the status quo that a few piss-takers have spoilt it for the rest of the boating community, a proportion of which will have their plans ruined and a proportion of which will get an inflated £40 charge.

[Peter-Bullfinch]

Peel would need to staff toll booths in Castlefield, Preston Brook and Leigh to collect the fees otherwise we quietly pass by on our way. I still feel that they are only after the minority who are abusing the system. Peel can only do so much without incurring considerably higher costs.

[Horace42]

If they were to charge (say) £10 for a short term licence, it probably wouldn't cover the costs of issuing the licence.

If the £40 fee only covers the admin cost, then there is no net gain for Peel and of no benefit to the facility. They might as well abandon the charge and - and let us cruise free of charge.

.

[Pie Eater]

Automatic registration plate recognition camera's at Preston Brook, Castlefield and Leigh :-)

 

Steve

[cuthound]

Define "reasonable fee"

 

Peel clearly feel that they are playing host to a lot of boats who pay nothing, and don't wish to do that.

 

You need to keep in mind that when they charge £40 for a 1 week licence, a proportion of that cost is taken up by the admin side of processing short term licences.

 

If they were to charge (say) £10 for a short term licence, it probably wouldn't cover the costs of issuing the licence.

Exactly, most people underestimate the cost of adminisration, forgetting the need for payroll, staff training, holiday cover, NI etc.

 

When I last worked over 3 years ago, the cost of sending a bespoke letter was calculated to be over £40.

[AndrewIC]

There's always the less desired solution of locking the 2 locks which are at the junctions, but there's still the flat junction between the Leeds & Liverpool to deal with.

The junction with the T&M at Preston Brook is at the north end of the tunnel (actually just inside it), so Dutton Stop Lock isn't Peel's to lock.

[jonathanA]

What can they (peel holdings) do if people simply refuse to pay the 40 quid? I would politely tell their EO to do one if he tryed to get any money of me on a transit and return trip.

 

In the same way that I never pay any penalty notice charges on supermarket/shopping centre car parks

[Richard10002]

 

I don't understand. What's the rationale for extending the 7 day allowance to 14 days? You don't need to spend any longer on the Bridgewater if you're traversing it on the way to and from Liverpool, than you do if you're on the way to and from Wigan, or Middlewich, or Hebden Bridge, or anywhere else.

 

I merely thought that, as CRT allow Bridgewater licence holders 14 days on CRT waters if they have booked a trip to Liverpool, it would not be too much of a stretch for Peel to allow CRT licence holders a 14 day period when they can be on the canal, if they have booked a trip to Liverpool. It would only help those coming from the T & M, and they would have to get to Liverpool and back in the 14 days, but it would be better than nothing.

 

I agree that, as the Bridgewater is partly a transit there and back for CRT licence holders, it would make sense to allow 7 non consecutive days on the canal.

[magictime]

 

I merely thought that, as CRT allow Bridgewater licence holders 14 days on CRT waters if they have booked a trip to Liverpool, it would not be too much of a stretch for Peel to allow CRT licence holders a 14 day period when they can be on the canal, if they have booked a trip to Liverpool. It would only help those coming from the T & M, and they would have to get to Liverpool and back in the 14 days, but it would be better than nothing.

 

I agree that, as the Bridgewater is partly a transit there and back for CRT licence holders, it would make sense to allow 7 non consecutive days on the canal.

 

Nope, still don't get it! The reason CRT allow 14 days rather than 7 for boats heading from Leigh to Liverpool and back, surely, is that it takes more than 7 days' cruising on CRT waters to do that specific trip (including the Link). But nobody based on CRT waters needs more than 7 days to traverse the Bridgewater once or twice, regardless of whether they're heading to Liverpool or anywhere else.