overstay £25 per day

[Nightwatch]

We have boated for over thirteen years. Live onboard for nigh on a year now. The 48 hour mooring restrictions are a pain in the proverbial, we would like to stay a little longer in locations that we like. We have not ever,never exceeded the fourteen day mooring rule/law/agreement. We find it boring to be in one place too long.

 

Could this be because we don't have job/school commitments in any particular location like some other continual leisure cruisers?

 

I do find CRT helpful if you inform them of a legitimate need to overstay at a particular location.

 

Martyn

[cotswoldsman]

We have boated for over thirteen years. Live onboard for nigh on a year now. The 48 hour mooring restrictions are a pain in the proverbial, we would like to stay a little longer in locations that we like. We have not ever,never exceeded the fourteen day mooring rule/law/agreement. We find it boring to be in one place too long.

 

Could this be because we don't have job/school commitments in any particular location like some other continual leisure cruisers?

 

I do find CRT helpful if you inform them of a legitimate need to overstay at a particular location.

 

Martyn

It is pain where I am at present there are about 15 48h moorings and 2 5 day moorings there are 2 boats on the 5 day and 3 boats on the 48h seems no thought goes into the moorings I mean why 5 days why not say 4 x 14d 2 x 7d and about 10 x 48h

[Nightwatch]

It is pain where I am at present there are about 15 48h moorings and 2 5 day moorings there are 2 boats on the 5 day and 3 boats on the 48h seems no thought goes into the moorings I mean why 5 days why not say 4 x 14d 2 x 7d and about 10 x 48h

Indeed. I agree. Seems someone just have a few signs made up. They are short of 7 day ones.

[b0atman]

I go to Banbury some weekends ideal is to go there Friday and leave Monday usually lots of room but its 48 hour not many hire boats about at the weekend some thought really needs to be given to mooring times.

[Tuscan]

It is pain where I am at present there are about 15 48h moorings and 2 5 day moorings there are 2 boats on the 5 day and 3 boats on the 48h seems no thought goes into the moorings I mean why 5 days why not say 4 x 14d 2 x 7d and about 10 x 48h

Totally agree, nothing wrong with short term moorings if there is real demand. don't understand why most can't revert to 7 PR 14 days outside July and August.

[Cheshire cat]

Totally agree, nothing wrong with short term moorings if there is real demand. don't understand why most can't revert to 7 PR 14 days outside July and August.

That's a good idea. Outside peak hire times there's no need force people to move on after 48 hours unless the motive is income generation.

[bassplayer]

That's a good idea. Outside peak hire times there's no need force people to move on after 48 hours unless the motive is income generation.

To be fair CRT have done this in some places. The strange thing is that where they did this in Stoke Bruerne from the tunnel it's usually pretty empty even in the summer.

[Jess--]

Could the lower number of boats on the water coming from CRT be down to them only reporting the number of boats with a 12 month license?

 

I wonder how many boats that used to have 12 month licenses are currently having to use 3 or 6 month licenses having been refused a 12 month license and as a result are falling through on the figures.

 

surely a better measure would be how many boats have held a license in the last 12 months (regardless of whether this was a 3 6 or 12 month license or licenses) rather than how many boats hold a 12 month license

[cotswoldsman]

Could the lower number of boats on the water coming from CRT be down to them only reporting the number of boats with a 12 month license?

 

I wonder how many boats that used to have 12 month licenses are currently having to use 3 or 6 month licenses having been refused a 12 month license and as a result are falling through on the figures.

 

surely a better measure would be how many boats have held a license in the last 12 months (regardless of whether this was a 3 6 or 12 month license or licenses) rather than how many boats hold a 12 month license

It includes all boats that hold a licence

[Cheshire cat]

I don't think the figures have dropped by 3000. Where have those boats gone? Willington Marina is the biggest on the system and holds 630 boats. It's huge. Five times as many boats would take up an enormous space. We would have noticed.

 

Then, as pointed out by others there are still plenty of new boats being created which would require a similar number of boats to be withdrawn. I haven't noticed a breakers yard anywhere.

 

I think that the numbers stated have been inaccurate and still are.

[Maffi]

OK Thrupp has had a club for over thirty years. Were the club not there it would be a hole. The moorings are managed by the club TCCC. Those of you that have been there will agree that it is a very pretty place. There are lots of flowers and the grass is cut regularly, all done by the club and its members. Twice a year there are club working parties when the club members carry outworks in the area, painting building, towpath repairs etc. If you have noticed the path that was renewed a couple of years ago that was organised and paid for by the club. They run a charity book stall which can be found next to the Elsan and several thousand pounds are donated to the clubs charity each year. The charity is selected at the AGM (Air Ambulance/Respite homes/Childrens Cancer etc. The Wendover Arm Trust is this years choice. The club organises days for local scouts and there are a couple of member nights as well. A lot of hard work goes into Thrupp and none of it is paid.

 

You are allowed to stay for a total 14 days between Sparrow Gap Bridge (Jolly Boatman)and Shipton Bridge by the church in any calendar month.

 

There are three mooring areas, In the space at the Jolly. 6/8 boats can moor for 48 hours from the bridge, to the end of the club moorings. There used to be 3 14 day moorings here but they were changed in August 2013 to 48 at the insistence of local hire boat companies.

 

There is space for up to 20 boats up in the village. Those outside the cottages are 48 hours and then up to the lift bridge are 7 day moorings. The old club disabled mooring has now been reverted to a 7 day mooring after the disabled club member passed away a couple of years ago. So there isn't a disabled mooring at Thrupp any more. Opposite the water point there are 100 and some odd feet of moorings belong to David Dare, Oxfordshire Narrowboats and space for a CRT work boat. This corner under the lift bridge is also the turning hole.

 

There is a section around by the church that is 14 days for 6/8 boats. There are also two moorings there directly opposite the church which are CRT long term moorings, nothing to do with the club.

 

Registration Numbers are recorded in the early morning and late afternoon by Adam or his wife Flick who you will see riding up and down the towpath. The numbers are sent to CRT daily. CRT raise any charges that CRT think are necessary.

 

In the case of the man with the bill there are many signs to explain the situation. This of course is not any use if you are dyslexic, which he claims to be. I am not party to the whole story but have overheard a few snippets, but will not go into that here. There are many CCers on the Oxford and they all manage to play by the rules. It is not hard. Given the general consensus is that the charges are illegal he could, if he choses, just not pay them. He could contact NBTA for advice. He says he will go to Thrupp this week and raise the issue. This is totally pointless as CRT issued the bill not the TCCC.

 

The idea that rich people can stay as long as they like if they are prepared to pay is total rubbish.

 

If you need to stay longer than the allowed 14 days you can rent a club mooring space if one is available, talk to Adam. If you need help, that Adam cant offer, talk to CRT.

 

I think that just about covers everything. Please feel free to ask if I have missed something.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Maffi

[Jess--]

Could the lower number of boats on the water coming from CRT be down to them only reporting the number of boats with a 12 month license?

 

I wonder how many boats that used to have 12 month licenses are currently having to use 3 or 6 month licenses having been refused a 12 month license and as a result are falling through on the figures.

 

surely a better measure would be how many boats have held a license in the last 12 months (regardless of whether this was a 3 6 or 12 month license or licenses) rather than how many boats hold a 12 month license

 

 

It includes all boats that hold a licence

 

Are we sure?

I was basing on Allans post (#48) which says "According to CaRT and BW annual reports the number of boats with 12 month licences has fallen from a high of just over 35,000 (2010/11) to just over 32,000 (2013/14)."

[bassplayer]

I don't think the figures have dropped by 3000. Where have those boats gone? Willington Marina is the biggest on the system and holds 630 boats. It's huge. Five times as many boats would take up an enormous space. We would have noticed.

 

Then, as pointed out by others there are still plenty of new boats being created which would require a similar number of boats to be withdrawn. I haven't noticed a breakers yard anywhere.

 

I think that the numbers stated have been inaccurate and still are.

Are we saying that the statistics are being spun in some way? Why would anyone make out there are less boats on the system than there really is?

 

I suppose if the figure in 2018 is 3000 you might as well concrete the system up and sell it off to developers.

 

Of course another possibility is that more and more boats in marina's aren't bothering with boat licences because they don't cruise. Who knows?

[Maffi]

I go to Banbury some weekends ideal is to go there Friday and leave Monday usually lots of room but its 48 hour not many hire boats about at the weekend some thought really needs to be given to mooring times.

There are 14 day moorings at Banbury. Up past Sovreign Wharf and down by the station

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Achtung hier komt frau Flick auf ihre fahrrad!

Best answer , avoid thrupp, over priced and dull.

[matty40s]

It’s just as well because there’re as many boaters on the cut as there have ever been (in living memory!). We’ve talked about a ballpark figure of 35,000 licences sold every year recently, as numbers have remained reasonably static. This isn’t the number of boats that are on the cut at any given moment, it reflects the number of licences issued over the preceding 12 months.

We report a slightly lower number in the Annual Report. This number reflects the number of boats with a long-term licence on 31 March of the year of the annual report in question – a snapshot, if you like. (Just so you know, ‘long-term licence’ includes three, six and twelve month licences, as well as Business and Gold licences.)

There’s only been marginal change in these snapshot figures in the last three years (from 32,490 valid boat licences on 31 March 2012 to 32,733 on 31 March 2015). The real eye-opener is that this year’s figure is 6,988 more than the number of valid boat licences just 10 years ago on 31 March 2005. That’s a massive 27% increase!

[Maffi]

Achtung hier komt frau Flick auf ihre fahrrad!

Best answer , avoid thrupp, over priced and dull.

What is there to be overpriced in Thrupp?

I dare say they will get by without you

[Cheshire cat]

 

It’s just as well because there’re as many boaters on the cut as there have ever been (in living memory!). We’ve talked about a ballpark figure of 35,000 licences sold every year recently, as numbers have remained reasonably static. This isn’t the number of boats that are on the cut at any given moment, it reflects the number of licences issued over the preceding 12 months.

We report a slightly lower number in the Annual Report. This number reflects the number of boats with a long-term licence on 31 March of the year of the annual report in question – a snapshot, if you like. (Just so you know, ‘long-term licence’ includes three, six and twelve month licences, as well as Business and Gold licences.)

There’s only been marginal change in these snapshot figures in the last three years (from 32,490 valid boat licences on 31 March 2012 to 32,733 on 31 March 2015). The real eye-opener is that this year’s figure is 6,988 more than the number of valid boat licences just 10 years ago on 31 March 2005. That’s a massive 27% increase!

 

Presumably that 27% increase represents an increase due to catching people in boats without licences and forcing them to pay their dues.

 

Even if the figures have held static over the last five years there have still been a fair few boats built. An equivalent number must have been put out of C&RT's reach one way or another.

[MtB]

The idea that rich people can stay as long as they like if they are prepared to pay is total rubbish.

 

 

 

Good post Maffs, but this bit puzzles me.

 

Why do you say this when the signs say I can stay as long as I like for £25 a day?

 

 

MtB

[jenlyn]

 

 

Good post Maffs, but this bit puzzles me.

 

Why do you say this when the signs say I can stay as long as I like for £25 a day?

 

 

MtB

Good point. It should be a maximum of 14 days, then a notice that you must move within 28 days if you've not moved after the 14.

Confused yet? Good, cos I am too.

[Maffi]

Good post Maffs, but this bit puzzles me.

 

Why do you say this when the signs say I can stay as long as I like for £25 a day?

 

 

MtB

Do you not think 'rich' people have better things to do with their money.

If you look at it like that poor people can take advantage and get benefits to pay.

[MtB]

Don't be silly. If I'm moored at say Shipton and after 14 days my phone lights up with boiler repair calls, I'm better off going out and mending the boilers and paying the overstay charge, rather than refusing the work and moving the boat. I earn more than £25 a day.

 

Nothing to do with benefits.

(Actually never mind more than £25 a day, I earn more than £25 an hour!)

[onionbargee]

The £25 per day is not legal unless they state clearly the terms and conditions, exact times, who to pay ect ect, I don't know the law, but one 4 inch square plaque with " 2 days free mooring " is not it.

 

They have put them there to test the water, when the fuss has died down they will be putting up the correct legally binding signage.

[Nightwatch]

We have moored in Thrupp a number of times. As Maffi says always neat and tidy and a good place to moor. Bus route nearby.

 

One thing I will say, at times it can be a bit clicky. Not everyone of course but you/I do that that impression from time to time.

 

Greenie for Maffi by the way. (How's your new gearbox?)

 

Martyn

[Dave_P]

My take on the £25 charge is that for it to be valid, a contact must be formed in law between the two parties (the moorer and CRT). Contract law is pretty complicated but there are a few basic tenets. For a binding contract to be formed, the law says that there must be a "meeting of the minds", agreement of terms, and certainty over those terms. None of these requirements exist in this case.

 

Therefore in my view, no contract exists between the moorer and CRT. Without a contract, CRT would have to pursue the case as one where a civil offence had been committed (e.g. trespass), which would surely be ludicrous in this case and would only allow CRT to seek payment for damages (there are no damages in this case.)

 

If CRT could sucessfully argue that a contract had been formed by them putting up signs then that contract would be bound by certain rules in contract law. Most importantly:

 

-it cannot be excessively punitive. In other words, the amount charged must be proportional and in-line with the costs incurred to CRT caused by overstaying. £25 is completely arbitrary and bears no relation to any costs incurred.

 

-it cannot be unfair. This is defined in the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regs 1999, schedule 2(1)(e) "Terms which have the object or effect of requiring any consumer who fails to fulfil his obligation to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation." and 5(1) "A contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer" and 5(2) states: "A term shall always be regarded as not having been individually negotiated where it has been drafted in advance and the consumer has therefore not been able to influence the substance of the term."

Neither of these rules have been met in the charges at Thrupp. So I'd be fascinated to hear under what authority CRT are making these charges?

 

An equivalent example would be if a family had a picnic on my front lawn while I was out, and afterwards, tidied everything away and left. I might not like it, but legally there's nothing I can do about it.