dredging rivers

[David Schweizer]

I don't know if that is aimed at me but perhaps you could define what you mean by sea level.

 

I know exactly what I said and it is true.

 

George ex nb Alton retirted

 

Not aimed at anyone specifically George, but as you have suggested that what you said is true, perhaps i need to enlighten you. It is the Somerset Moors which are at approximatly the same level as high spring tides, not the Somerset levels which are aproximately twelve feet above the high spring tides. The Somerset levels are primarily grass meadow land, some of which floods every year during the winter. The Somerset moors are peatbog which is permanently wet and are routinely prone to flooding, not helped by the practice of the RSB who deliberately keep them wet to encourage migrating wading birds.

 

With regard to sea level, if you check my post you will see that I quoted Mean Sea level which is the level used by the Ordanance Survey and determined as being half way between low tide and high tide.

Edited February 8, 2014 by David Schweizer

[nb Innisfree]

Are you a.Dutch water engineer?

No, just being logical. But whether pumps could manage to shift flood water faster than its arrival is something for a Dutch water engineer to work out.

[Graham Davis]

The only way of stopping the Somerset Levels flooding in the future is to improve and extend the sea wall and pump flood water into the sea, present sea wall has been overtopped by the sea in the past. If pumps struggle to cope then flood inrush has to be slowed/delayed. That or surrender low lying areas to the sea. Basic mechanics to my simple mind

 

But the current innudation of the Somerset Levels isn't by sea water but by fresh water pouring off the high ground surrounding them!!

[Bee]

Problem with water is that it finds its own level, raise the sea wall, build levees, you have built a huge swimming pool and you have to rely on pumps forever to empty it, thats what the Dutch do

[furnessvale]

 

Not aimed at anyone specifically George, but as you have suggested that what you said is true, perhaps i need to enlighten you. It is the Somerset Moors which are at approximatly the same level as high spring tides, not the Somerset levels which are aproximately twelve feet above the high spring tides. The Somerset levels are primarily grass meadow land, some of which floods every year during the winter. The Somerset moors are peatbog which is permanently wet and are routinely prone to flooding, not helped by the practice of the RSB who deliberately keep them wet to encourage migrating wading birds.

 

With regard to sea level, if you check my post you will see that I quoted Mean Sea level which is the level used by the Ordanance Survey and determined as being half way between low tide and high tide.

OK I stand corrected. As someone who lives approximately 600ft above sea level, however you measure it, the thought of people willingly living 12ft above, even high tide level, just strikes me as madness.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Phil Ambrose]

Problem with water is that it finds its own level, raise the sea wall, build levees, you have built a huge swimming pool and you have to rely on pumps forever to empty it, thats what the Dutch do

That's what we have in the Fens, in places the rivers are above the surrounding land and water has to be pumped up to the rivers. The problem is that as the Fens were drained the ground shrank. There is a church near me that had a basement but this is now a ground floor with steps leading up to it.

Phil

[David Schweizer]

OK I stand corrected. As someone who lives approximately 600ft above sea level, however you measure it, the thought of people willingly living 12ft above, even high tide level, just strikes me as madness.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

 

I agree with you up to a point, and personally would not consider living so close to sea level or near a river that might flood, but some people, particularly the farmers, have something approaching Hobson's choice. Many of them are tennant farmers and do not have the capital to buy a farm elsewhere, and those who do own their farms would get a very poor return for their property so they either give up and accept the losses or struggle on.

 

I am less able to comment on the non farming community, which is actually quite small, but I suspect many of them have the same finacial dilema as the farmers.

[nb Innisfree]

 

But the current innudation of the Somerset Levels isn't by sea water but by fresh water pouring off the high ground surrounding them!!

Correct, but it's due to the Levels being near sea level that prevents them draining fast enough into the sea, hold the sea back while the Levels are pumped. A large engineering project but probably financially impractical, cheaper to abandon. The other option is to slow down the water draining from the higher ground to allow the Levels to drain by gravity alone but with the present rainfall I reckon that's a no goer. Edited February 8, 2014 by nb Innisfree

[carlt]

.....cheaper to abandon.

As is happening along the North East coast.

 

The fact that this is happening in the South tends to push the right media hysteria buttons.

[nb Innisfree]

As is happening along the North East coast.

 

The fact that this is happening in the South tends to push the right media hysteria buttons.

Wait until folk realise the UK landmass is tilting, Scotland rising and England sinking, south by 5cm in the next 100 years. We need a wall round Somerset to stop panicking hordes escaping.

[the grinch]

Thats roughly how it works at Boston, close the gates when the tide is coming in, the 'flood water' builds up in the River Witham, tide goes down, open the gates, flood water exits river into the sea.

sadly even that doesn't work completely as photos of Bardney last year showed, having boated the Witham in winter I can say it comes up pretty rapidly after heavy rain!

[Alan Saunders]

Flooding of farmland can be beneficial. There are (were?) sluices that flooded the fields (water meadows) next to the River Wey in Guildford and other places in winter. The (alluvial) soil improved the land and the river water warmed the soil providing e.g. spring pasture for sheep and lambs. There is a name for this system of agriculture, which originated in the 16thC, but I cannot find it at the moment.

 

BTW, my father, born 1921 in Guildford, recalled that these fields, flooded with a few inches of water, often provided excellent skating rinks in the winter.

 

Something has changed in the past 100 years; it cannot just be the weather.

 

Alan

[StarUKKiwi]

At the risk of upsetting people, what is really needed is a good hard look at the value of land versus the cost of trying to keep hold of it. Not only the Somerset levels, but East Anglia, the east coast above Hull and anywhere else that we are fighting nature.

 

If the price is right, fine keep going. If not, give up the unequal battle and use the money to resettle people.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

 

Part of the Agenda 21 then?

[luctor et emergo]

Flooding of farmland can be beneficial. There are (were?) sluices that flooded the fields (water meadows) next to the River Wey in Guildford and other places in winter. The (alluvial) soil improved the land and the river water warmed the soil providing e.g. spring pasture for sheep and lambs. There is a name for this system of agriculture, which originated in the 16thC, but I cannot find it at the moment.

 

BTW, my father, born 1921 in Guildford, recalled that these fields, flooded with a few inches of water, often provided excellent skating rinks in the winter.

 

Something has changed in the past 100 years; it cannot just be the weather.

 

Alan

In The Netherlands this flooding system has been used as long as they have build dykes along three river. Typicaly there are two, in parallel, a low (summer) dyke near the river, and a higher (winter) dyke a little further inland. The summer dyke allows the river to flood the pasture land between the dykes in early spring, when all the melting water comes from the Alps (in a nutshell, there is more, but I'm on the phone). When the river receded, the cattle is grazed on this pasture, and protected from flooding during the summer and autumn by the lower dyke.

 

The Dutch didn't build dykes just to stick their thumbs in you know..

[David Schweizer]

As is happening along the North East coast.

 

The fact that this is happening in the South tends to push the right media hysteria buttons.

 

I am not sure that the North-South divide claim is relevant where the Somerset levels are concerned. I have lived and worked in the Midlands, the North West and the South West, and have noticed no significant difference in the lack of attention any of those areas recieve from the press compared with the South East, If anything we feel even more ignored in the South West than we did when we lived in the Midlands.

[Alan de Enfield]

Eric Pickles has admitted the Government made a "mistake" in not dredging rivers to prevent flooding but blamed the Environment Agency for providing poor advice.

 

...I am really sorry that we took the advice ... we thought we were dealing with experts

 

 

http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/pickles-admits-rivers-mistake

[peterboat]

Doesnt the Thames barrage protect London? I will google it to be sure but I thought it closed/partly closed when high tide were due

 

Peter

[Pluto]

The current flooding is the result of several historical factors. First, it is only comparatively recently that legislation was introduced to control building on areas liable to flood. A great many developments have already taken place on what was historically considered unsuitable land which, besides encouraging run-off, rather than water retention, have also encouraged the EA to straighten rivers and thus increase the speed of run-off. All this does is move the problem downstream. This could have been addressed by legislation many years ago, and of course politicians were warned about it then, but the building industry had too great an influence on them, whilst local communities, and their wealth of local knowledge, were ignored.

 

Today things should be better with regard to development, but local authorities are under national government pressure to increase housing stock, whether the area needs it or not. If the local authority opposes new build, the result is that the Minister ends up making the decision, which often ignores local communities and authorities advice.

 

The bloated bureaucracy of the EA is also a problem, especially when compared to similar agencies on the continent. Our British management style ends up with people who have little understanding or experience of what they are managing, often with disastrous or expensive results.

[Phil Ambrose]

Doesnt the Thames barrage protect London? I will google it to be sure but I thought it closed/partly closed when high tide were due

 

Peter

The Thames Barrier does exactly that, Tidal Surge? close the barrier, any danger of flooding upstream of the barrier, close it. Very impressive, been through it twice.

Phil

[davidc]

I am not sure that the North-South divide claim is relevant where the Somerset levels are concerned. I have lived and worked in the Midlands, the North West and the South West, and have noticed no significant difference in the lack of attention any of those areas recieve from the press compared with the South East, If anything we feel even more ignored in the South West than we did when we lived in the Midlands.

Try living in Northumberland even the BBC ignores our existence try looking on there weather map for us

[peterboat]

Yes I googled the Thames barrier the telegraph had a nice piece showed what would happen to london if it wasnt for the barrier so whats really needed is something similar for the somerset levels I suspect?

 

Peter

[David Schweizer]

Try living in Northumberland even the BBC ignores our existence try looking on there weather map for us

 

The weather map for Northumberland does not seem any different from elsewahere in the country. Fewer towns shown, but that is probably because thers are fewer of them.

[carlt]

 

I am not sure that the North-South divide claim is relevant where the Somerset levels are concerned. I have lived and worked in the Midlands, the North West and the South West, and have noticed no significant difference in the lack of attention any of those areas recieve from the press compared with the South East, If anything we feel even more ignored in the South West than we did when we lived in the Midlands.

Really?

 

The North Yorkshire coastal defences were effectively abandoned decades ago largely to allow the tide to carry the silt and sand to the southern parts.

 

It didn't work of course so they are now abandoning the Norfolk and Suffolk coast to the elements.

 

When I talk about the North-South divide, by the way, I include the Midlands in the "South" as the huge amounts of money spent protecting the leafy shires of the Severn Valley contrast starkly with the "sorry but we're letting nature take it's course" attitude on the NE coast.

[Mike Todd]

Eric Pickles has admitted the Government made a "mistake" in not dredging rivers to prevent flooding but blamed the Environment Agency for providing poor advice.

 

...I am really sorry that we took the advice ... we thought we were dealing with experts

 

 

http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/pickles-admits-rivers-mistake

So that's OK, we can now save even more money by sacking even more people with training and expertise as all that is needed to be known can be decided by politicians . And they are so much cheaper, as well know and some of them are even experts in moats - posh name for a drainage ditch.

 

We could even do away with universities as they clearly only teach people rubbish - come to that, let's send every child out to work as soon as it can hold a hammer, much better than schools, waste of time and money. And then we could sack Gove as being unnecessary. There, I told you it was good news.

[mark99]

 

Despite suggestions from some people, the Somerset levels are not below sea level, the average height is about 25ft above mean sea level with some lower areas down to 12ft above sea level. Water flows down hill, so until the flooded area of the levels exceeds that of the sea and until the sea level increases by at least 12 feet, a larger drainage ditch will carry more water downhill into the sea and consequently minimise excessive flooding. The Monks in the Middle Ages knew that and since then two more drainage channels have been dug, until recently they were routinely dredged. It is only since the Environment Agency ceased any significant dredging that the problem has gradually worsened, and whilst the levels will always incur some flooding , it could easily be reduced to managable proportions.

 

 

Some of the watercourses on the Levels have has their banks built up so much the river is 10 foot above the land.

 

NB Google Earth in bottom right hand corner shows elevation as you hover over land.