Early Engines for narrowboats

[larkshall]

Grab hold of an HT lead on a spark ignition engine with a wet hand. Water is a good conductor.

I wonder if there were many fish around the tunnel area.

 

Probably the reason Spark ignition was neve that popular on damp boats. Oh and Magnetos, also hate the damp !

[Derek R.]

Nice shots Tam, and what a brilliant article in the link - Zin-Zins - got to be my favourite! 600kg unmanned locomotives hung on a cable taking power from a wire along the canal tunnel wall - and in the open too!

[Athy]

The attachment is priceless - what a treasury of amazing vintage photos apart from anything else.

I am amused that "Low Tech Magazine" invites you to "subscribe by e-mail". Surely by post, or even by carrier pigeon, would be more appropriate.

[David Mack]

 

Manchester Metrolink operates at 750 volts DC.

As does just about every other street-running LRT/tram system around the world built in the last 30 years or so (including the UK systems in Sheffield, West Midlands, Croydon and Nottingham). Some of the North American LRT systems, which operate more like a metro/railway run at 1500V dc.

[Pluto]

There are quite a few articles about electric traction on canals in France and Belgium from 1890 to the 1930s, and a couple of booklets were published by the museum at Conflans St Honorine, the French boating museum near Paris. There is an early electric tractor by Siemens in the Technical Museum in Berlin, and an electric rail-mounted tug is preserved at the top of the Niederfinow boatlift. I haven't found much published about electric towage in England, the main advocate being Professor Marchant from Liverpool University who gave a statement to the Royal Commission around 1908, and who tested his system, which had motors running on girders 6 feet above the towpath, on the L&LC near Wigan.

[alan_fincher]

Looking at the lettering on the side of the engine room I reckon it is DENMARK, also borne out by the engine exhaust position (Bolinder).

Looks highly plausible to me.

[andywatson]

I can't see that external cable haulage would work here, in a rail situation there would be support rollers at regular intervals between the rails.

 

Tim

According to section 3 of Tam and Di's (post 50) article the French had a cable hauled system working in 1888.

 

One of the systems described was in a 3 mile long tunnel.

Edited November 12, 2013 by andywatson

[Timleech]

According to section 3 of Tam and Di's (post 50) article the French had a cable hauled system working in 1888.

 

One of the systems described was in a 3 mile long tunnel.

 

OK, interesting. That's using an overhead haulage cable, I was thinking you meant one in the bed of the canal for a tunnel tug.

 

Tim

[Ian Mac]

As does just about every other street-running LRT/tram system around the world built in the last 30 years or so (including the UK systems in Sheffield, West Midlands, Croydon and Nottingham). Some of the North American LRT systems, which operate more like a metro/railway run at 1500V dc.

As does the southern electric top pick-up third rail system.

Another exception was the Manchester Bury system which was 1350v DC with side pick-up third rail system. This also like the Harecastle system, had to be encased in wooden troughing.

Its all to do with the design of DC motors which liked 150v for their motor windings, even though most modern trams actually use AC motors and clever electronics so they can still do regen back into the wire.

Trolley bus systems also tended to us 750v DC

[Tunneltug]

To reply to Andy's comment, they had a powered cable system installed in the Blisworth tunnel in the 1860s which was pulled by an external steam engine. It was a disaster and was ripped out within a year and the GJCCo decided to use tunnel tugs for the next 60 years

[Pluto]

There were only a few trials of chain haulage in this country, such as Blisworth and on the A&CN, but on the continent, there were hundreds of miles of chain or rope haulage using chains or ropes lying on the canal/river bed. There is an excellent German book called 'Kettenschiffahrt' which describes the history there, where much of the over 200 miles of chain for the River Main system came from the Black Country. Both Russia and France also had chain towage systems. The system tended to be used on free-flowing rivers, where the positive towing action using chains was much better than using paddle wheels or propellors.

[Ray T]

There is a few seconds of the Harecastle electric tug (I think) here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnrO6Nb3qQo

 

at 12 min 56 secs in.

 

Blink and you'll miss it.

[AMModels]

 

The portable engines which sat on horse boat roofs are worthy of mention as well as oddities like Hookes patent reversing rudder. The electric boat at Kiddimenster must have been dodgy with wires at head height, at least the Harecastle tug was battery with a curious signalling system using a trolley pole.

 

Going back to this post I saw a picture today in one of my canal books of a joey boat fitted with a cabin top mounted engine, Vulpres/Valpres was the name I think. Any further details on this experiment, I presume it was an early attempt at the "diesel outboard" engines fitted to the boats EC Jones built for BW in the early 60's Anne and Lee was it?

[The Pipe]

There were only a few trials of chain haulage in this country, such as Blisworth and on the A&CN, but on the continent, there were hundreds of miles of chain or rope haulage using chains or ropes lying on the canal/river bed. There is an excellent German book called 'Kettenschiffahrt' which describes the history there, where much of the over 200 miles of chain for the River Main system came from the Black Country. Both Russia and France also had chain towage systems. The system tended to be used on free-flowing rivers, where the positive towing action using chains was much better than using paddle wheels or propellors.

I have not seen "Kettenschiffart" as there was over 600km of chain up the Elbe was there an "up chain" and a "down chain". I have seen pictures of the tows on the Elbe and they were massive.

[Pluto]

I have not seen "Kettenschiffart" as there was over 600km of chain up the Elbe was there an "up chain" and a "down chain". I have seen pictures of the tows on the Elbe and they were massive.

The book was published in 1987, 264 pages, ISBN 3341002820, and just covers chain towage in Germany, where it was used on the rivers Elbe, Saale, Weser, Rhine, Neckar and Main. There seems to have been a single chain as more conventional tugs could be used downstream, though the chain tugs also worked downstream. There was only a single chain, with the downstream boat anchoring whilst the upstream boat was manoeuvred around. The chain was unwrapped from the downstream tug's pulleys, the upstream tug passing alongside, and the chain then rewound around the downstream tug's pulley's. Having two chains would cause problems if the became entwined. The tugs had movable guides for the chain at either end so that the chain always fell into the centre of the channel behind the tug.

[pete harrison]

 

Going back to this post I saw a picture today in one of my canal books of a joey boat fitted with a cabin top mounted engine, Vulpres/Valpres was the name I think. Any further details on this experiment, I presume it was an early attempt at the "diesel outboard" engines fitted to the boats EC Jones built for BW in the early 60's Anne and Lee was it?

VALPRE was a cabin wood day boat owned by J. Yates, Pelsall, and was subsequently hired to T.H. Coggins.

 

VALPRE was B.C.N.Co. gauged as 826 (03 April 1924) and there is no record of a propulsion unit ever being added to the gauge table, although I have also seen the photograph (a short history of the NARROW BOAT by Tom Chaplin - page 35) and based on the caption my own records list "mechanised rudder and engine on cabin top".

 

There are at least a dozen B.C.N. day boats where the B.C.N.Co. gauge table lists a motor engine of some sort and I suspect they were all similar versions to that fitted to VALPRE.

[Derek R.]

I can imagine the experiment was short lived with the propensity for a coat or shirt getting caught in the transmission shaft immediately below and parallel with the tiller. It may have had a sleeve over the rotating shaft, and has the look of being Quickly Detachable. I wonder how 'quickly' some found a watery grave!

[AMModels]

VALPRE was a cabin wood day boat owned by J. Yates, Pelsall, and was subsequently hired to T.H. Coggins.

 

VALPRE was B.C.N.Co. gauged as 826 (03 April 1924) and there is no record of a propulsion unit ever being added to the gauge table, although I have also seen the photograph (a short history of the NARROW BOAT by Tom Chaplin - page 35) and based on the caption my own records list "mechanised rudder and engine on cabin top".

 

There are at least a dozen B.C.N. day boats where the B.C.N.Co. gauge table lists a motor engine of some sort and I suspect they were all similar versions to that fitted to VALPRE.

Thats the one Pete, it would be very interesting to see if there are any details of these experiments/engines on day boats, I havent seen any other images of this set up and its not something I remember hearing about talking with any old uns.

[Laurence Hogg]

Draw your own conclusions, doesnt look too bad except today H&S would faint!

 

 

Edited November 14, 2013 by Laurence Hogg

[Pluto]

It was tried in Yorkshire, with the Universal Sliding Propellor Co of Brighouse company offering this for £375 in 1921.

[flatplane8]

Great pictures of some weird and wonderful devices. I like this one I found on YouTube of an old Dutch system, lovely sounding engine too.

Edited November 15, 2013 by flatplane8

[by'eck]

Great pictures of some weird and wonderful devices. I like this one I found on YouTube of an old Dutch system, lovely sounding engine too.

 

Yes MtB has that sound to look forward to when he gets his Samofa going.

[IanD]

Looking at the photo showing the trunking coming out of the tunnel, there's nothing that shows there weren't two wires inside the trunking (live and return, or poitive and negative) with the pickup pole making contacts on to both, which is the obvious way of solving the return current problem. The French photos show two separate wires and pickup poles to feed and return current, but this could easily be done with one pole so long as the wires were spaced a few inches apart inside the trunking, maybe with the pole running between them with a contact either side?

 

So probably no need to speculate any more about electrified water, fried fish, chains not carrying current, exposed cables underwater... :-)

[Barry]

Great pictures of some weird and wonderful devices. I like this one I found on YouTube of an old Dutch system, lovely sounding engine too.

 

That's interesting because the prop is towards the front of the barge rather than at the rear

[matty40s]

, maybe with the pole running between them with a contact either side?

 

So probably no need to speculate any more about electrified water, fried fish, chains not carrying current, exposed cables underwater... :-)

I don't think Tom Rolt was speculating when he passed through the tunnel and reported how it worked.