Early Engines for narrowboats

[Timleech]

Pardon me chaps. I wasn't clear in my previous post.

-My reference to a large cable drum was in the construction phase (ie a large diameter cable couldn't even be put into the tunnel in the first place). You've got to build it before you can use it. Therefore a small diameter cable would be used.

 

I had in mind a cable anchored at both ends of the tunnel which the boat pulled itself along.

This would be by means of the boat's motorised rollers which can be arranged to give sufficient grip.

Although a chain can be gripped more positively I think a cable is more likely for current transmission.

 

With regard to high voltage overhead wires in close proximity to operators, this system has been used on small trolley locomotives in South African gold mines at least untill the late 70's. People only got fried when they stood on the rails and touched the overhead wire.

 

So long as the pos and neg sides are reasonably well insulated from each other the neg cable in the water can still work without stunning fish.

(Birds can perch on 36,000 V wires and get away with it.)

Maybe the original drum could have been outside the tunnel, and the cable pulled through, with some support from boats along the way? Don't know whether it would work, but it might.

 

I don't know how the mines locos were constructed, but it wouldn't have been too hard to insulate the bodywork from the track to make life a bit safer for the operators. Probably more difficult to do that effectively with a boat, even damp wood can act as a conductor of sorts.

 

Tim

Edited November 11, 2013 by Timleech

[andywatson]

Maybe the original drum could have been outside the tunnel, and the cable pulled through, with some support from boats along the way? Don't know whether it would work, but it might.

 

I don't know how the mines locos were constructed, but it wouldn't have been too hard to insulate the bodywork from the track to make life a bit safer for the operators. Probably more difficult to do that effectively with a boat, even damp wood can act as a conductor of sorts.

 

Tim

Yes it works:

You posted as I was editing in my last para describing a viable cable hauled but remote powered system.

 

I don't know how to put the next bit sensitively :

The electrocutions occured not due to deficient locomotive design but to migrant workers lack of experience of electricity and training resulting in them touching live wires.

Edited November 11, 2013 by andywatson

[Timleech]

Yes it works:

You posted as I was editing in my last para describing a viable cable hauled but remote powered system.

I was thinking of the original cable laying operation, not the actual towing system.

I can't see that external cable haulage would work here, in a rail situation there would be support rollers at regular intervals between the rails.

 

Tim

[matty40s]

"The Harecastle tunnel tug must be one of the most curious craft ever constructed. Drawing is current from an overhead cable, it has no propellor,but hauls itself along on a second cable laid in the bed of the canal,picking it up on a winch and paying it out astern."

Tom Rolt- narrow boat.

[GUMPY]

Suspect it was also in the 5-600vdc

Chain in the water at 0v overhead wire at 5-600v

Health and safety don't be daft

[The Pipe]

Suspect it was also in the 5-600vdc

Chain in the water at 0v overhead wire at 5-600v

Health and safety don't be daft

If you were stood on a dry horse boat deck you should not get a shock anyway.

I know about the Blackpool trams as I worked on them as a holiday job sometimes the pantgraph would hook over the wire in the gales and we would go and unbolt the whole lot one handed the other hand you kept in your jacket pocket even with rubber gloves on as you were usally soaked to the skin. Used to scare me sh!tless you can die very quick with 600 volts DC (yes all done live!).

 

Or this as live wire working.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGoaXZwFlJ4

Edited November 11, 2013 by Jim Evans

[Timleech]

If you were stood on a dry horse boat deck you should not get a shock anyway.

I bet you would if it were wet, though!

 

Tim

[The Pipe]

I bet you would if it were wet, though!

 

Tim

YES. And come out of the other end of the tunnel well enougth done to be used as the sunday roast. Hence the comment about the Blackpool trams,

[Nick G]

_{This picture was taken in 1950. It shows a boat emerging under it's own power at the south end of Harecastle Tunnel. You can also clearly see the overhead cable trunking. There is a note on the back of the photograph which reads: "Note the casing round the electric cable which supplies power to the tug via an overhead trolley."}

_{I'm still not sure if this clarifies how the power supply worked, but I thought it was worth posting!}

 

_Nick

 

[MtB]

(Birds can perch on 36,000 V wires and get away with it.)

 

 

But not blokes, presumably...

 

 

MtB

[alan_fincher]

_{This picture was taken in 1950. It shows a boat emerging under it's own power at the south end of Harecastle Tunnel. You can also clearly see the overhead cable trunking. There is a note on the back of the photograph which reads: "Note the casing round the electric cable which supplies power to the tug via an overhead trolley."}

_{I'm still not sure if this clarifies how the power supply worked, but I thought it was worth posting!}

 

_Nick

 

 

Great picture.......

 

To me that says the voltages in that overhead wire are high enough they can at least give someone a nasty belt, and that it is sheathed, so if you do try and stand up into the cable, you hit the insulated covering trunking, not the conductor.

 

That to me says it is a power source for electric motors to power the tug, because why would you do that if you need just low voltages to use it as some kind of signalling system.

 

We are still waiting to hear what prompted Laurences original suggestion that it was though, does he have materials that say something new?

 

EDIT:

 

I also notice it is Nick G's first posting, so I should have welcomed another historic boat person into our ranks.... Welcome Nick!

Edited November 11, 2013 by alan_fincher

[Nick G]

Thanks Alan. I've been lurking for a while, waiting for a topic to which I felt I could make a useful contribution.

 

Nick

[Tuscan]

Thanks Alan. I've been lurking for a while, waiting for a topic to which I felt I could make a useful contribution.

 

Nick

Welcome

[alan_fincher]

Thanks Alan. I've been lurking for a while, waiting for a topic to which I felt I could make a useful contribution.

 

Nick

So it seems from that picture, and the annotation to it, that although sources report the electric tug as taken out of use in 1954, that some motor boats made their own way through under their own diesel power?

 

Clearly at the date of the picture the big doors and the electric fans to draw fumes from the tunnel had yet to be installed, so presumably too many motor boats going alone would have caused a problem?

 

I wonder what determined what boats powered themselves through, and which had to be taken in tow? Do you know what boat it is? Not yours??

[Laurence Hogg]

The voltage a Harecastle was 550 volts DC. The decked over boat was the battery boat, as I understand the the tug went through on the batteries pulling on the chain, the trolley was used for signalling (Like the Great Orme tram was). TRam voltages are still at 550 v DC, our "Midland Metro" operates at that voltage as does Crich, Blackpool, and other sytems. It was the common voltage for motors in public transport, our Trolley buses in Walsall and Wolverhampton were on that voltage.

cheers,

Laurence

[Nick G]

The photograph was taken by my father. It is clearly labelled and dated. There is no indication of the name of the boat; the sign written cabin side looks very faded and it does not show up any better on the original photograph. My grandparents wooden cruiser Heron is visible in the background, moored on the right before the tunnel tug. This is definitely before the fans were installed.

 

Nick

[pete harrison]

The photograph was taken by my father. It is clearly labelled and dated. There is no indication of the name of the boat; the sign written cabin side looks very faded and it does not show up any better on the original photograph.

 

Nick

Looking at the lettering on the side of the engine room I reckon it is DENMARK, also borne out by the engine exhaust position (Bolinder).

[John Holden]

The voltage a Harecastle was 550 volts DC. The decked over boat was the battery boat, as I understand the the tug went through on the batteries pulling on the chain, the trolley was used for signalling (Like the Great Orme tram was). TRam voltages are still at 550 v DC, our "Midland Metro" operates at that voltage as does Crich, Blackpool, and other sytems. It was the common voltage for motors in public transport, our Trolley buses in Walsall and Wolverhampton were on that voltage.

cheers,

Laurence

 

Manchester Metrolink operates at 750 volts DC.

[Timleech]

Manchester Metrolink operates at 750 volts DC.

Was that voltage 'inherited' from the MSJ&A railway, or perhaps a standard voltage used by modern tram builders?

 

Tim

[matty40s]

Blackpool operates on 600v dc.

[Tam & Di]

_{This picture was taken in 1950. It shows a boat emerging under it's own power at the south end of Harecastle Tunnel. You can also clearly see the overhead cable trunking. There is a note on the back of the photograph which reads: "Note the casing round the electric cable which supplies power to the tug via an overhead trolley."}

_{I'm still not sure if this clarifies how the power supply worked, but I thought it was worth posting!}

 

_Nick

 

 

 

 

There is still mandatory towage through the tunnel at Riqueval on the Canal de St-Quentin in N. France. Unfortunately this shot of a train including our "Friesland" leaving from the southern end does not show the tug itself. I'll try to find time to look for one. Our training video does have a good overhead action view if it leaving the tunnel, but I can't find a way of getting it from the DVD onto my MacBook. I'll do it if anyone can tell me how.

 

Tam

 

 

Edited November 12, 2013 by Tam & Di

[Tam & Di]

More on the Riqueval tug - as my tag says I am ignorant of anything other than basic wiring, and can't really describe the system used. The tunnel is just under 6 km. The pick-up on the tug is from overhead wires as per a trolley bus. This drives a horizontal drum on the deck which has about 3-4 turns of chain which runs from one end of the tunnel to the other, and drags itself along by this means. Craft remove their radio aerials so as to not get them touching the overhead wires. On a couple of occasions the pick-up has come adrift. Once when we were the only vessel in the tow sparks from it ignited a drum of oily rags on the deck of the tug - that was an interesting trip!

 

The tug runs at set times twice per day in each direction. No matter the order of arrival the first vessels are loaded automoteurs - the 38m péniches loading only about 250 tons on this small canal. Then come any empties, then larger leisure barges such as ours, and finally any yachts - it is basically by weight, with the heavier craft first in line. The longest train we have been in was 17 barges, when the only alternative route was closed for maintenance. That's 17 x 38m craft + 30m line - a tow of over 1km! There is a towpath on one side and the first vessel is given a cable from the tug. After that each skipper hands the end of a 30m line from his fore end to the boat in front, and it is attached to run on the side away from the towpath on each vessel. It the same principal as working a loaded pair with a 90' snubber - at that distance you sit in the water which is following in the same direction as the towing craft, and the line seldom even comes taut. Anything much shorter and you get thrown all over the show, out of control.

 

On our last tow, with about a dozen working craft, the pick-up came off half way through. The first boat saw it and started his engine to avoid ramming the tug. The second boat didn't see it as quickly which meant the line between the two went slack and wound itself around the blades of the leading barge. Neither of them were very happy. We were the tail-end Charlies in the train, and none of us at our end had any idea of what was going on - just that there was a lot of horn blowing noises and the tunnel was filling with exhaust as each barge started its motor to come to a halt. We only found out when the tug restarted and we eventually came out at the other end. The guy with 30m of line round his blades was luckily an empty and was already tied and trying to get it off. He had an advertising spiel along the coamings saying "use water transport - 100 times safer than the road". Taking my life in my hands I called him on the VHF as we passed and suggested he needed to change it to read 99 times now. He did sort of think it was funny - well he didn't try to ram us when we next saw him .

 

Tam

 

 

edited to add that the last blog added by Derek on the following post #48 describes what happens if you don't use at least 30m of tow line between each vessel. Pleasurecraft seldom have lines sufficiently long, but we always advise them to tie several lines together to get sufficient length. I refuse to take them in tow directly behind me unless they do, as otherwise they act as a sea anchor and keep pulling me out of line as well as bouncing from wall to towpath themselves.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Tam & Di

[Derek R.]

There's an image of the Riqueval tug here:

 

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:CanalStQuentin1.jpg

 

- and from the tunnel mouth top with two tugs moored here:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/46593689@N00/1601192247/in/photostream/

 

Another blog writes of a charge of €25 being made (bill in the post).

 

An intrepid traveller by Dory through the tunnel with comment on the first tug here:

http://www.manontheriver.com/the-journey/focus-by-michael-bogoger/the-riqueval-tunnel/

 

I think Jim Shead's website makes comment on the battery boat being an 'experiment' prior to overhead power supply for haulage at Harecastle. But as is often the case no definitive references.

 

More Riqueval tunnel tales (there's a pop up that needs to be cancelled on this one):

http://members.tele2.nl/Mouringh.Marga/St-Quentin_eng.htm

 

It's interesting to not that due to the still ongoing transport by canal in France that such details are available, whereas in the UK - at least with regard to Harecastle - such have been lost from accurate memory. Straws that slip from the hands and minds.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Derek R.

[billh]

Was that voltage 'inherited' from the MSJ&A railway, or perhaps a standard voltage used by modern tram builders?

 

Tim

The MSJ& A was 1500vdc when first electrified. Converted to 25kV AC about 1971, then converted again to 750vdc when tramified , 1993.

[Tam & Di]

Here's a couple of the Riqueval tunnel tug which show it and its electrical connections fairly clearly. I've also got an old postcard of a section of canal in Charleroi in Belgium where a similar system of electric propulsion from overhead cables was used. The vessel shown does not appear to be a tug and I've not found out the whys and wherefors of it all.

 

In my Googling I did come across this link which is a comprehensive study of the various electric trolley systems, and mentions that the Charleroi section was a 4km experimental length which only lasted a few years.

http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2009/12/trolley-canal-boats.html

 

 

Edited November 12, 2013 by Tam & Di