Relative Values Of Historic Boats With A Conversion on?

[Timleech]

The age qualification for a boat to join the National Register of Historic Vessels is to be at least 50 years old.

There's the 'National Historic Fleet' within the register for vessels with some particular historic importance.

 

Tim

[alan_fincher]

Actually on reflection Tornado in its own way is also now historic, being the first loco built in the UK since Evening Star. (Before any pedants get involved I know the boiler was fabricated in Germany.)

 

Different pedantry please!

 

Tornado can considered perhaps to be the first standard gauge steam loco built in the UK since Evening Star for main line domestic use.

 

Production of some standard gauge steam locos for industrial use in the UK continued long after British Railways built their last in 1960, (something like 1964 springs to mind), and other new narrow gauge locomotives have been completed in far more recent years.

 

If you also include the several fairly recently built replicas of very early standard gauge locos like Rocket, Sans Pareil, etc, then actually Tornado slips a long way down the list of steam locomotives built since Evening Star.

[Athy]

 

Actually on reflection Tornado in its own way is also now historic, being the first loco built in the UK since Evening Star.

[quote

It most certainly was not.

 

Alan, I don't think I mentioned cars, did I? From memory only, very old cars are divided into these age groups:

Up to 1904: Veteran (these are the only ones which qualify as entrants to the London to Brighton Run, for example).

1905 - 1916: Edwardian.

1917 - 1931: Vintage (this era ended, most appropriately, when production of what are now called vintage Bentleys ceased).

Post - 1931: PVT (Post Vintage Thoroughbred), an elastic term which, as far as I understand it, can be applied to any car which is not old enough to be vintage but is still rather nice.

 

 

Edited as I do know how to spell thoroughbred, honest Guv, but my computer doesn't.

 

To be "historic", a car/engine/boat must surely have participated in a notable event or achieved something special, over and above just surviving from its building date until now, whereas "vintage" has a sense of old but also well matured like fine wine. This seems an appropriate adjective to apply to any boat from the ra of commercial carrying.

Edited October 1, 2013 by Athy

[alan_fincher]

I reckon you should just by a Hudson and be done with it, we will all keep out of your way.

 

Would anyone realise that it was anything other than a perfect "Josher" replica, though?!?

[Ray T]

Thank you for the correction Alan, I had better go in the corner with my dunces hat on for a while.

Edited October 1, 2013 by Ray T

[churchward]

Actually on reflection Tornado in its own way is also now historic, being the first loco built in the UK since Evening Star. (Before any pedants get involved I know the boiler was fabricated in Germany.)

Just for fun actually Tornado is the first std gauge loco since Evening Star built for the UK mainline. There have been some narrowgauge locos built post Evening Star. Examples of this are Lyd (2010) and Earl of Merioneth (1979) on the Ffestiniog.

[Athy]

 

Different pedantry please!

 

Tornado can considered perhaps to be the first standard gauge steam loco built in the UK since Evening Star for main line domestic use.

 

Production of some standard gauge steam locos for industrial use in the UK continued long after British Railways built their last in 1960, (something like 1964 springs to mind), and other new narrow gauge locomotives have been completed in far more recent years.

 

If you also include the several fairly recently built replicas of very early standard gauge locos like Rocket, Sans Pareil, etc, then actually Tornado slips a long way down the list of steam locomotives built since Evening Star.

absolutely - and let us not forget the Beyer-Garratt articulated engines which continued to be built (albeit by Hunslet after Beyer Peacock went bust) for Southern Africa until 1968.

I have a recollection that the last steam loco for commercial service, as opposed to tourist haulage, was built in Britain in 1971 though i can't remember who built it. Hunslet (which still exists) must be a contender.

[Timleech]

absolutely - and let us not forget the Beyer-Garratt articulated engines which continued to be built (albeit by Hunslet after Beyer Peacock went bust) for Southern Africa until 1968.

I have a recollection that the last steam loco for commercial service, as opposed to tourist haulage, was built in Britain in 1971 though i can't remember who built it. Hunslet (which still exists) must be a contender.

 

I have a builders plate from the penultimate standard gauge loco built by Hudswell Clarke, that was 1961. It was a large 0-4-0 for the NCB (as was the ultimate), so it wasn't them. They moved into mining machinery and military work as well as diesel locos, doubt whether they still exist but haven't checked.

 

Tim

 

Just checked - the company was sold off in the 1960s

 

Further edit -

"No. 3890 – the very last new steam locomotive to be delivered for non-heritage use within the UK – was despatched to Cadeby colliery, at Conisbrough, Yorkshire,

on March 27, 1964."

 

From:-

http://www.railwaymagazine.co.uk/news/newer-than-evening-star

 

Tim

Edited October 1, 2013 by Timleech

[BenC]

canalworld.net

 

this topic is now more suited for www.railwayforum.net

[Athy]

Oh come on, Ben, my anorak is equally suitable as boating wear.

[BenC]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16kCRTFJr04

[carlt]

It most certainly was not.

 

Alan, I don't think I mentioned cars, did I? From memory only, very old cars are divided into these age groups:

Up to 1904: Veteran (these are the only ones which qualify as entrants to the London to Brighton Run, for example).

1905 - 1916: Edwardian.

1917 - 1931: Vintage (this era ended, most appropriately, when production of what are now called vintage Bentleys ceased).

Post - 1931: PVT (Post Vintage Thoroubred), an elastic term which, as far as I understand it, can be applied to any car which is not old enough to be vintage but is still rather nice.

For tax purposes...

 

Up to 1974: Historic.

[koukouvagia]

The age qualification for a boat to join the National Register of Historic Vessels is to be at least 50 years old.

There's the 'National Historic Fleet' within the register for vessels with some particular historic importance.

 

 

And for Hudson owners who may be feeling a bit left out there's a section on the National Historic Ships website for replicas. I'm surprised that no one's added a their modern washer josher yet to the list .

[junior]

I'm quite interested in this topic. Can anyone give their opinion on my question;

 

My boat was built in 1977 and for at least the first 8 years of it's life it did a fair bit of coal carrying around Manchester I think. It also worked onthe Bridgewater Canal and did some rubbish collecting contracts for the Rochdale canal Co.

 

Obviously it's not what you'd call "an ex-working boat", as in the kind of thing that you see at Braunston show etc, but what it?

 

I suspect the answer is that it's just an old boat!

Edited October 1, 2013 by junior

[churchward]

I'm quite interested in this topic. Can anyone give their opinion on my question;

 

My boat was built in 1977 and for at least the first 8 years of it's life it did a fair bit of coal carrying around Manchester I think. It also worked onthe Bridgewater Canal and did some rubbish collecting contracts for the Rochdale canal Co.

 

Obviously it's not what you'd call "an ex-working boat", as in the kind of thing that you see at Braunston show etc, but what it?

 

I suspect the answer is that it's just an old boat!

I am sure you will get any number of different opinions but for what it is worth here is mine.

 

Given that it was carrying cargo for revenue, coal rubbish or anything else that makes it an ex-working boat in my view.

[Mike Tee]

I'm quite interested in this topic. Can anyone give their opinion on my question;

 

My boat was built in 1977 and for at least the first 8 years of it's life it did a fair bit of coal carrying around Manchester I think. It also worked onthe Bridgewater Canal and did some rubbish collecting contracts for the Rochdale canal Co.

 

Obviously it's not what you'd call "an ex-working boat", as in the kind of thing that you see at Braunston show etc, but what it?

 

I suspect the answer is that it's just an old boat!

I have not seen Albion in the flesh, only on the sales web site, but although it did 'work', I'd probably refer to it as 'in the style of an ex-working boat' in so far as it has a mid engine room, traditional type rear cabin with dropdown bed etc, but you obviously love it, so call it what you want! (But not 'an old boat', its one that has aged well).

[cheshire~rose]

Interestingly Python (built in 1929) would be vintage if she were a car.

 

She is not a car but a boat. She is on The Historic Ships Register and is listed with The Historic Narrow Boat Club.

 

People are suggesting she (and others like her) are not historic. Clearly she is not a ship either but managed to fulfill the criteria to be accepted on The Register of Historic Ships.

 

If she is accepted by both those organisations as being historic then who are we to say they are wrong?

 

She cannot be called an ex-working boat because she still works. She has a business licence but her job title has changed from the early days when she used to carry and from her mid life when she used to be a maintenance boat. Now she has a far cushier job lining up with lots of other pretty boats to publicise the work of The Chesterfield Canal Trust.

[carlt]

 

People are suggesting she (and others like her) are not historic. Clearly she is not a ship either but managed to fulfill the criteria to be accepted on The Register of Historic Ships.

 

Actually she is on the National Register of Historic Vessels which is maintained by National Historic Ships so it doesn't really need to be a ship and, unless accepted into the list of core vessels, doesn't need to be particularly "historic" either.

 

I have had many old boats, some like my present one and "Usk", "Le Shack", "Tramella", and others I would regard as "classic" or "vintage" but two, "Lucy" and "Peter and Sarah Blake" I regard as "historic" because of the significant contribution to history, maritime or the canals, they have made.

 

Most of the "classic" boats I have owned qualify for inclusion on the NRHV, btw, except those that fail due to lack of length, not lack of history.

[MtB]

"Heritage boat". That's a new candidate!

 

 

MtB

[Timleech]

Just checked my dictionary to see what it says -

" 'historic' - famous or important in history"

" 'historical' - pertaining to history: derived from history: associated with history: according to history: authentic'

 

It also says that "formerly, 'historic' and 'historical' were often used interchangeably".

 

Maybe we should be talking about 'historical' craft in most cases, rather than 'historic'?

 

Tim

[Mike Tee]

A little off-topic, but might this one be described as hysterical?

 

 

apologies to the owner, but if he / she can't take a joke ................................

[Athy]

Moored on the North Oxford, used to be just the Oxford side of Braunston, I once spoke to a chap on board who told me what she was or had been but I've forgotten. Does anyone know?

 

Mr. T and Tim have both touched upon what I was getting at, i.e. the usage of the word "historic". Some old boats, cars, locomotives etc. are famous or important in history. Others are simply old/ historical/ vintage/ call it what you will. I think I'll go with "vintage" - which, after all, we happily use to describe engines of similar, er, vintage.

Edited October 1, 2013 by Athy

[mark99]

Just checked my dictionary to see what it says -

" 'historic' - famous or important in history"

" 'historical' - pertaining to history: derived from history: associated with history: according to history: authentic'

 

It also says that "formerly, 'historic' and 'historical' were often used interchangeably".

 

Maybe we should be talking about 'historical' craft in most cases, rather than 'historic'?

 

Tim

There was an interesting and very entertaining philosophical programme on radio 4 at 4pm today - talking about authenticity. Available on listen again.

 

A lot of what they were discussing was failrly relevant here.

[Starcoaster]

We saw that boat again Sunday before last and asked too, but i have also forgotten... MB may remember though. Also I was sure there are two of them about, but the owners of that one were equally sure that it is the only one.

Edited October 1, 2013 by Starcoaster

[carlt]

We saw that boat again Sunday before last and asked too, but i have also forgotten... MB may remember though. Also I was sure there are two of them about, but the owners of that one were equally sure that it is the only one.

There was a thread about it a few years ago.