Relative Values Of Historic Boats With A Conversion on?

[alan_fincher]

It is no secret I think we are at least tentatively looking for a boat with working boat origins, but one already having a full cabin conversion.

 

Now there are not a lot of these about, but what are can be a whole range of things......

 

1) Former long distance carrying motor boat, such as a "Grand Union" or a "Josher".

2) A boat similar to above, but converted from a former un-powered butty of an otherwise similar type, and with a "modern" back end on.

3) A working boat type for which there was never actually a "motor" version, the type having been intended to to be horse drawn. This might be a "Station" boat, or a "Joey" with quite nice lines like a "Bantock".

 

The first two of these will generally have a name and fleet number they were built with, and a very recognisable history. The third type was generally a boat that would not have carried a name from new, and any current name having been added at a later date. It may be possible to identify it as a specific boat, or it may actually be identifiable as only one of a type.

 

So, if we were comparing boats, and assumed.....

 

All had a proper motor stern, with back cabin and engine room.

All were in similar condition.

All had similar engines in good order

All carried similar cabins, and were fitted out to similar standard.

 

..... how much more does "the panel" assume you might expect to pay for a boat in one of these categories, over one that is in another?

 

I know it is a "how long is a piece of string" question, and very much down to personal preferences, (and maybe prejudices!), but I'm still very interested to hear views.

Also how nuch of a premium do people think there should be for it being a historic boat at all? (Now awaits Nick Norman telling me it should be quite the reverse, and I should expect a heavy discount for a dented riveted boat with patches on!....)

[BenC]

I would say that any historic Grand Union boat, motor or butty must be worth at least £100k each

[alan_fincher]

I would say that any historic Grand Union boat, motor or butty must be worth at least £100k each

 

Very helpful!

 

Might be selling some then?

 

(I have been told value-wise you should just about be able to swap one for a 1995 Mike Heywood!...................)

[Timleech]

I would say that any historic Grand Union boat, motor or butty must be worth at least £100k each

 

Such devastating wit.

 

 

Tim

[carlt]

I personally wouldn't have a butty with a full motor conversion, preferring one that retains the original shape with "fishplates" added.

 

Apart from that there doesn't seem to be a big difference in value between a motor boat or a well executed full counter conversion, the main value being in the state of the hull and quality of fit-out.

 

Day boats are a different matter though, with the best commanding prices on a par with the best motor and the worst being scrap value.

 

I think the biggest variation in prices is at the "restoration" end of the spectrum rather than the "fully restored".

[Rufford]

They are priceless. Worth millions. *Forms a price fixing cartel*

PS. Alan have you looked at Andromeda? Its for sale in Stone, it is quite nice but does need some work. Chap wants 55k for it, I offered late 25/30k and he told me where to go. You may have better luck, the chap has terminal cancer and wishes to carry on boating but with an easier boat, so perhaps he would be interested in a 1995 Mike Heywood boat?

[Black Ibis]

I've seen all three types (fitted out to a good standard) on offer for similar prices. However, type 1 seems to sell quicker.

 

I assume that this is because authenticity is a priority for the type of person who seeks an historic boat. Someone simply looking for a boat irrespective of age has a far wider pool to choose from, and an old boat will only appeal if it can be proved to be very sound & well fitted out or a bargain (the latter type setting themselves up for disappointment!)

[alan_fincher]

PS. Alan have you looked at Andromeda? Its for sale in Stone, it is quite nice but does need some work. Chap wants 55k for it, I offered late 25/30k and he told me where to go. You may have better luck, the chap has terminal cancer and wishes to carry on boating but with an easier boat, so perhaps he would be interested in a 1995 Mike Heywood boat?

No have not considered Andromeda.

 

There were once two different ads for it, but immediately can find only one.

 

Looks to me like engine is at back of boat, where back cabin would normally be?

 

Am I right ? - if so, no, not really interested, I think.

 

But thanks for reminder.

[Rufford]

Yes there were two ads for it, it is a nice fit out and the engine is in the back with a solid bulkhead between the engine room and the main cabin. I believe he essentially cut the back off the butty and welded a new back end on, there is no boatmans cabin as such and he has also rebottomed quite a lot of it. It does need work on it (mainly steelwork) but the boat is a nice boat and the fit out is quite nice too.

[Black Ibis]

We considered Andromeda, it's a nice fitout, but dismissed it for reasons similar to Alan's. Too "modern" looking for us too, and we were keen for a Type 1 boat!

Edited September 30, 2013 by Black Ibis

[Rufford]

I dismissed it because most the plates are coming apart and it really needs to come out the water and have the steelwork sorted out, and again its a converted butty. I feel guilty about RUFFORD now Alan...

[Black Ibis]

Just noticed Malvern's been reducedto £47995. But of course, that's a type 2 as well!

http://www.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=301238

[alan_fincher]

I feel guilty about RUFFORD now Alan...

Don't.

 

But even looking about now, at others, I still couldn't tell you what actually was a "fair" price, I think!

Just noticed Malvern's been reducedto £47995. But of course, that's a type 2 as well!

http://www.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=301238

 

Yes, I wonder why ?

 

ETA

 

Looks a pretty attractive "Type 2" to me, (if we accept it is a "Josher"...) The Armstrongs are lovely engines, but I get the impression parts are like hens teeth.....

Edited September 30, 2013 by alan_fincher

[Rufford]

Well I wouldnt sell it for anything less than 90 to 100k (at the moment) as I really wish to live on it for a while, perhaps even raise a family which would be nice

 

And Malvern is greatly reduced, I was very tempted - its a lovely boat.

[Rufford]

Altho I must admit I regret not taking up BenC on his offer of a unconverted working boat and a butty, but only a little. Why dont you buy a good 'proper' butty that has not been converted and do an under tarp conversion? And tow it with Sickle, that would look pretty good

[Black Ibis]

Yes, I wonder why ?

 

ETA

 

Looks a pretty attractive "Type 2" to me, (if we accept it is a "Josher"...) The Armstrongs are lovely engines, but I get the impression parts are like hens teeth.....

 

Well I wouldnt sell it for anything less than 90 to 100k (at the moment) as I really wish to live on it for a while, perhaps even raise a family which would be nice

 

And Malvern is greatly reduced, I was very tempted - its a lovely boat.

 

 

It's been on the market for a while now. Very nice looking boat.

[Rufford]

It is lovely, I was torn between Malvern and RUFFORD. Malvern was cheaper and a nice fit out however it was so bloody far away AND its a butty. And while that doesnt really matter, it is converted and it floats and its a good boat - it still isnt 'proper' and while it doesnt really bother me I felt that resale might be a problem as it is a butty. Shame as it really is a nice boat with a good fit out.

[koukouvagia]

This question interests me, too. Not that I’m considering selling our pair!

 

There'll always be a premium for a good ex-working boat, but they do seem to take a long time to sell. I've often spoken to people who admire an historic boat, but don't want what they perceive to be all the hassle that goes along with it.

 

You ask for experiences. Here are ours:

 

Both the motor and the butty were in pretty much the same condition before we started work on them – i.e. they both needed re-bottoming, although the hulls were pretty good; they both needed engines – a Kelvin and a BMC 1.8; they both had steel undercloth cabins added; they both needed fitting out.

 

I doubt whether I’d get back what I’ve spent on them – around £65K for the motor and about £55K for the butty. On both the boats I saved a bit of money by doing the internal fit outs myself. This I reckon cost about £10K per boat – the most expensive item being the reclaimed timber I used on the motor. The fit outs are simple – no fancy electrics etc.

 

The current prices asked for seem to be:

Bournemouth £48K (converted)

Barnes £55K (converted)

 

Plus the unconverted ones – for comparison

Bletchley and Argos £55K

Betelgeuse £25K

William £35K

Clematis £45K

Mountbatten and Jellicoe £60K

 

I know there are others around, but these are the ones listed in the current HNBC magazine.

 

I suppose you either go for ones, like we did, which were cheap (£11K for the motor and £9K for the butty) but needed a lengthy and expensive amount of work doing, or you go for ones that have already been restored/converted.

Whichever way you do it, the final total is going to be around the £60K mark.

 

There is another option with a butty – namely an hydraulic drive in the elum. You’ve steered Hampton, Alan, so you know what it feels like. The beauty of doing this kind of conversion is that it not only goes like the clappers, but absolutely no modification has been made to the hull of the vessel. I could simply swap the steel elum for the original wooden one very quickly.

Best of luck with your search.

[alan_fincher]

The current prices asked for seem to be:

Bournemouth £48K (converted)

Barnes £55K (converted)

 

Add to that,

 

Rigal (under cloth conversion of at least some of a butty) Now £45K

Bristol (Dipper) £53K

Columba Offers over £37K, but apparently going to be very expensive to do.

 

plus boats like Andromeda and Malvern already discussed above.

 

Also Baldock, though I don't think a published price has yet been put on that.

 

Also Slough is rumoured to be available for anybody who fancies a really big restoration! No idea of £££s.

 

.......Just off to look at a bit of a wild card that is none of those!

You’ve steered Hampton, Alan, so you know what it feels like.

 

Yes I have!

 

I was genuinely surprised when you told me it was relatively lightweight work compared to Owl!

 

Perhaps Joshers are not for me!............

[Rufford]

It really is hard to put a value on old boats, however the general consensus is that 60k for a mostly fitted boat with good steelwork is about right *breathes a sigh of relief*

 

So Alan, when will you sell me Sickle? Gotta be about 20k aint it? Its not converted and its only HALF a boat!

[c c]

I would say that any historic Grand Union boat, motor or butty must be worth at least £100k each

Oh come on.......... be realistic.

 

 

The Motor has to be more expensive than the butty.

Particularly if it has its original engine.

 

And If you think I am jesting -

 

try offering us £100k for BADSEY.........

 

 

Edited to add: of course, its always understood that any historic boat thats been converted with a lot of steel welded on the top is worth half.

Edited September 30, 2013 by canalchef

[Rufford]

It depends on what you want, I looked at buying an unconverted boat and converting it, I soon realised that the cost for converting and the cost of sorting out any steelwork would be far more than buying an already converted one in a good condition. It is all very subjective! However, I think we can all agree that SICKLE is half a boat, is unconverted and should really be sold to me for a packet of crisps and a pint! (I need a tug deck to sit on, Im really going to miss mine when I move on to RUFFORD !)

[Athy]

But generally a patio will considerably enhance the value of a property.

[Rufford]

Depends on how many bodies Mr Fincher has buried under there

[Tuscan]

We didn't like any of the under the cover conversions we saw. Its of course a very personal thing.

 

We had seen Aber for years and we decided to buy her strip of the cabin extension, rebottom and then get professionally fitted out to out design.

 

We love the end result but recognise that we will only get back about half what we paid so not for the faint hearted.