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Relative Values Of Historic Boats With A Conversion on?

alan_fincher

By alan_fincher
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alan_fincher Veteran II

alan_fincher

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....and so are Hudsons, which do not look like authentic joshers but which have a certain elegance of their own, viewed from most angles anyway.

 

 

 

 

One can easily determine the draught of a boat by how many boating poles are on the roof.

 

RUFFORD has three such poles. And a pair of chest waders.

 

Sickle is the same draught as Rufford, and so far we have never used a pole in any situation.

 

Clearly the skill of the steerer(s) has more to do with the need for a pole than the draught of the boat! :lol:

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thorne lass Contributor

thorne lass

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It is no secret I think we are at least tentatively looking for a boat with working boat origins, but one already having a full cabin conversion.

 

Now there are not a lot of these about, but what are can be a whole range of things......

 

1) Former long distance carrying motor boat, such as a "Grand Union" or a "Josher".

2) A boat similar to above, but converted from a former un-powered butty of an otherwise similar type, and with a "modern" back end on.

3) A working boat type for which there was never actually a "motor" version, the type having been intended to to be horse drawn. This might be a "Station" boat, or a "Joey" with quite nice lines like a "Bantock".

 

The first two of these will generally have a name and fleet number they were built with, and a very recognisable history. The third type was generally a boat that would not have carried a name from new, and any current name having been added at a later date. It may be possible to identify it as a specific boat, or it may actually be identifiable as only one of a type.

 

So, if we were comparing boats, and assumed.....

 

All had a proper motor stern, with back cabin and engine room.

All were in similar condition.

All had similar engines in good order

All carried similar cabins, and were fitted out to similar standard.

 

..... how much more does "the panel" assume you might expect to pay for a boat in one of these categories, over one that is in another?

 

I know it is a "how long is a piece of string" question, and very much down to personal preferences, (and maybe prejudices!), but I'm still very interested to hear views.

 

Also how nuch of a premium do people think there should be for it being a historic boat at all? (Now awaits Nick Norman telling me it should be quite the reverse, and I should expect a heavy discount for a dented riveted boat with patches on!....)

 

I think the original question is perhaps over simplistic, but has the merit that it opens up the subject for more debate!

 

Whilst the three categories in my opinion are either accidentally or by intent in descending order of potential value there are wide disparities within the categories. A Star class GU boat would always be a better bet (i.e. potentially more valuable) (IMO) than a Town class since the proportions are more practicable for conversion and cruising. A Josher might be slightly better still since it is finer (narrower) and arguably more sought after, so there are already three sub-groups for valuation within Type 1.

 

Moving on swiftly to category 2, how many motorised butties have faithfully re-produced counters? "Andromeda" (from the photos) does not seem to, or have a properly proportioned boatman's cabin. But then a motorised butty could have a pretty faithful counter, but massaged to reduce the draft slightly, and could have been reduced in beam during a complete rebuild to a more comfortable width, so in some eyes might offer advantages over a Type 1 Star class in terms of more practicability for boating.

 

A "type 3" may offer just the same practical advantages as a well re-built type 2 (or not) but may not have the same appeal as the much better photographed and documented GU and FMC boats.

 

In all cases good provenance in the form of a well documented history will weigh heavily, and perhaps a recent subject of discussion, "Columba" is the prime example of a highly desirable conversion on a highly desirable hull with a very interesting history.

 

Originality is also a very important factor. We all know about "original" wooden boats but we are not talking about them. But supposedly original but repaired steel / iron boats, lets say for example GU town class motors, can vary immensely in appeal depending on how they have been repaired. Has the counter been replaced with a slightly less than faithful welded counter, or has it been cunningly replated to retain the original seams and rivets (and perhaps some of the dents, all of which Ted Ward would have claimed to have done!). Has the boat been re-bottomed / re-footed carefully so that the hull hasn't hogged?

 

As always however the actual value is not subject to hypotheses, but is the price that a willing buyer will pay a willing seller, so an appalling wreck may command a high "value" for all sorts of strange reasons.

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alan_fincher Veteran II

alan_fincher

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In all cases good provenance in the form of a well documented history will weigh heavily, and perhaps a recent subject of discussion, "Columba" is the prime example of a highly desirable conversion on a highly desirable hull with a very interesting history.

 

There must be something about Columba I'm not seeing, I think, particularly as others have raved over it too.

 

Undoubtedly it has a more interesting history than most, I fully accept that.

 

However looking at what sits there neglected now, I don't see a cabin that is any more attractive than many others of the genre.

 

Like so many there is none of the originality left of a riveted engine room, and instead the modern welded steel cabin just flows from one end of the boat to the other.

 

I can't even convince myself that with the perfect paint job it will ever really look "right", although I admit that's a hard judgement to make when you are just looking at failing grey primer.

 

I'm also not sure, (other than the history) why a hull that has probably not been out of the water in many years, and probably had nothing done to it in maybe decades is "highly desirable".

 

Nobody seems in a hurry to buy it, anyway.

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thorne lass Contributor

thorne lass

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There must be something about Columba I'm not seeing, I think, particularly as others have raved over it too.

 

Undoubtedly it has a more interesting history than most, I fully accept that.

 

However looking at what sits there neglected now, I don't see a cabin that is any more attractive than many others of the genre.

 

Like so many there is none of the originality left of a riveted engine room, and instead the modern welded steel cabin just flows from one end of the boat to the other.

 

I can't even convince myself that with the perfect paint job it will ever really look "right", although I admit that's a hard judgement to make when you are just looking at failing grey primer.

 

I'm also not sure, (other than the history) why a hull that has probably not been out of the water in many years, and probably had nothing done to it in maybe decades is "highly desirable".

 

Nobody seems in a hurry to buy it, anyway.

 

Yes, I can pick holes in it too; portholes too high, gunwhales lost, steel slides on the wrong runners etc. but the point is the potential, the pedigree and the history, and, as said, nobody is rushing to buy it so the price may well drop to allow for some fine tuning and of course major hull repairs. Of course somebody may fall in love with it, non-original engine room or not, and pay a premium for all the other attributes, and relish the challenge to bring a fine boat back to life, but clearly not you Alan, so you will value it at a lower level and that is your personal right..

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alan_fincher Veteran II

alan_fincher

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Of course somebody may fall in love with it, non-original engine room or not, and pay a premium for all the other attributes, and relish the challenge to bring a fine boat back to life, but clearly not you Alan, so you will value it at a lower level and that is your personal right..

Yes, quite probably someone will make an excellent job of it, although I think they will need deep pockets.

 

I don't know enough about this boat to have any strong prejudices against it, although from what I have heard the (advertised) asking price sounds very high. I'm not privy to any information about whether the vendors are likely to lower it a lot.

 

The reason I would not take on Columba, (or several other boats that may or may not be for sale at the moment), is that basically we are looking for something reasonably sound that we could start to use straight away. If we find a boat to replace our leisure boat then that will need to be quickly sold, and we don't want a major period without a usable main boat, whilst we actually take on a major project. I'm more than happy to leave that to others. I've no problem with one needing a reasonable amount of work, if the boat is largely usable as we improve it, but that's about as far as we personally want to go.

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Tuscan Veteran

Tuscan

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In my limited experience of having bought two old working boats one that had been converted and one where a little had been done and we planned and supervised the conversion is that if you have a reasonably tight tight budget buy the conversion and adapt cosmetically. We have exactly what we want now havng started from scratch and to a very high standard but we needed significantly deeper pockets than initially planned. The worse case in my mind is getting a boat that's just OK now and then starting what could become major work that you hadn't budgeted for.

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thorne lass Contributor

thorne lass

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In my limited experience of having bought two old working boats one that had been converted and one where a little had been done and we planned and supervised the conversion is that if you have a reasonably tight tight budget buy the conversion and adapt cosmetically. We have exactly what we want now havng started from scratch and to a very high standard but we needed significantly deeper pockets than initially planned. The worse case in my mind is getting a boat that's just OK now and then starting what could become major work that you hadn't budgeted for.

 

My sentiments exactly, although others have every right to adopt different courses. I would much rather take on a major job and do it properly than make do with an indifferent or "reasonably sound" one. A boat like Columba may have a completely rotten bottom and footings, which would suit me much better than one with patched knees and 3/4 of a good wooden bottom, and it wouldn't necessarily be a matter of the costs of the work, or the cost of the boat, but the end result that mattered.

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Rufford Proficient

Rufford

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Sickle is the same draught as Rufford, and so far we have never used a pole in any situation.

 

Clearly the skill of the steerer(s) has more to do with the need for a pole than the draught of the boat! laugh.png

 

 

I think Rufford may actually be a little less, however a 40ft boat is not like a 72ft boat! If the wind catches me or if I need to wait for another boat and drift on to something Im buggered. I openly admit that I am not used to steering such a large boat and I am getting more and more used to it :-)

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alan_fincher Veteran II

alan_fincher

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I expect this has been mentioned a few times on this thread but just in case. How about this one on eBAY.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Narrow-boat-historic-narrow-boat-for-sale-/331048386642?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4d14058052

 

A bit of a mystery this one - has been looked at by other forum members, until they found something else.

 

For sale for absolutely ages, (can't remember exactly, but can't be far off two years now), with the price coming slowly down, whilst the "incentive" offered to someone introducing a buyer increases slowly.

 

We haven't been to look, but have been told a certain amount about it.

 

You can only wonder why it has not found any interest in a very, very long while.

 

I Know what you mean but tidy all the same I thought. Also a better starting price than some.

 

The back cabin has actually been described as looking like it has been used as a chicken house, so maybe not that tidy!

 

This, and other things, may be the reason they are now slowly bringing the price down!

 

Why stick to e-Bay though, I have no idea - AFAIK it has never made it on to Apollo Duck.

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churchward Veteran II

churchward

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A bit of a mystery this one - has been looked at by other forum members, until they found something else.

 

For sale for absolutely ages, (can't remember exactly, but can't be far off two years now), with the price coming slowly down, whilst the "incentive" offered to someone introducing a buyer increases slowly.

 

We haven't been to look, but have been told a certain amount about it.

 

You can only wonder why it has not found any interest in a very, very long while.

 

 

The back cabin has actually been described as looking like it has been used as a chicken house, so maybe not that tidy!

 

This, and other things, may be the reason they are now slowly bringing the price down!

 

Why stick to e-Bay though, I have no idea - AFAIK it has never made it on to Apollo Duck.

Yep there are always reasons for not selling. The state of the back cabin does not show in the pics although I did not mean tidy in the literal sense more like the the South Wales vernacular but if it is knocked about not that either.

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MtB Veteran II

MtBDonate to Canal World

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A bit of a mystery this one - has been looked at by other forum members, until they found something else.

 

For sale for absolutely ages, (can't remember exactly, but can't be far off two years now), with the price coming slowly down, whilst the "incentive" offered to someone introducing a buyer increases slowly.

 

We haven't been to look, but have been told a certain amount about it.

 

You can only wonder why it has not found any interest in a very, very long while.

 

 

The back cabin has actually been described as looking like it has been used as a chicken house, so maybe not that tidy!

 

This, and other things, may be the reason they are now slowly bringing the price down!

 

Why stick to e-Bay though, I have no idea - AFAIK it has never made it on to Apollo Duck.

 

It has been on the market since long before I bought REGINALD but the price has only reduced by a measly £2k. Background noise!

 

Very nice boat at a glance but on closer inspection a very spartan fit-out IIRC with no stove, and so many windows a goldfish bowl would feel claustrophobic in comparison.

 

Never been seen by me to move off it's mooring at Burghfield Island in ten years, which is odd given the gorgeous, magnificent engine.

 

MtB

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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alan_fincher Veteran II

alan_fincher

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It has been on the market since long before I bought REGINALD but the price has only reduced by a measly £2k.

 

A bit more than that....

 

Was £54K up until about end of 2012 - then £50K, now £48K

 

So certainly come down at least £6K.

 

Clearly it must still be too much, though!

 

As you say, it does have a National, (possibly even its original, I'm not sure), setting it apart from most of the genre that seem to have a Lister H series engine of one flavour or another.

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Athy Veteran II

AthyDonate to Canal World

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Very nice boat at a glance but on closer inspection a very spartan fit-out IIRC with no stove, and so many windows a goldfish bowl would feel claustrophobic in comparison.

 

MtB

One man's excessive fenestration is another man's light, bright and airy - I don't see that (if you get my drift) as reducing its sales potential.

 

The surprising lack of a stove, though, certainly will.

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