lister overheating

[David Mack]

8 hours ago, SiFi said:

I believe it's overheating because the temperature alarm goes off and the expansion/header tank cap is losing water and the first time billowing steam.  Takes about 25-30 minutes from cold. 

 

The calorifier and skin tank and all the pipes get very hot.  There is one thing that puzzles me.  When the engine is running hot the top half of the skin tank gets really hot but the lower half never gets so hot that you can't touch it.  I would think that this cooler water would be enough to stop the engine from overheating.

 

So the hot water from the engine is able to get to the calorifier and the top of the skin tank, possibly just by convection within the pipes, so there can't be too much of a blockage in the top half of the circuit. But the water isn't circulating properly. So either there is a blockage in the bottom half of the circuit, or the water pump is not actually circulating the water. Do we know the water pump is actually working?

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, David Mack said:

 

So the hot water from the engine is able to get to the calorifier and the top of the skin tank, possibly just by convection within the pipes, so there can't be too much of a blockage in the top half of the circuit. But the water isn't circulating properly. So either there is a blockage in the bottom half of the circuit, or the water pump is not actually circulating the water. Do we know the water pump is actually working?

 

OR something is allowing coolant flow to bypass the skin tank to some degree.

[Steve56]

6 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

just to be clear that picture is my lister NOT  Si-Fi's.   which is this one  and not the proper lister part in use, hence the temp switch in the pipe, don't see why that would matter.   Does seem to me to be a flow problem - perhaps a faulty stat or wrong stat ?   I suspect the issue with the expansion tank could be overfilling ?

As you say not the correct Lister part, but would make no difference to the operation.

[SiFi]

27 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

So the hot water from the engine is able to get to the calorifier and the top of the skin tank, possibly just by convection within the pipes, so there can't be too much of a blockage in the top half of the circuit. But the water isn't circulating properly. So either there is a blockage in the bottom half of the circuit, or the water pump is not actually circulating the water. Do we know the water pump is actually working?

That is the question I keep coming back too, conflicted between what can stop a pump and how do you check?

22 minutes ago, Steve56 said:

As you say not the correct Lister part, but would make no difference to the operation.

I am going to check the overfilling this morning and if I can fit a temperature gauge

[Steve56]

One thing that could give an indication of pump operation. If you have the standard set up as per diagram remove the filler cap and run the engine up to a relatively fast speed. You should then see a steady trickle of water being returned to the tank via hose number 10.

[Peugeot 106]

I seem to remember a post where Tony B told a tale of a rubber hose where the inside delaminated and acted as a flap that only blocked when there was flow

[Bod]

18 minutes ago, SiFi said:

That is the question I keep coming back too, conflicted between what can stop a pump and how do you check?

I am going to check the overfilling this morning and if I can fit a temperature gauge

I have seen a water pump, where the vanes had completely rusted away, being made of pressed steel, rather than cast iron.

This did cause the engine to over heat, as there was no meaningful circulation.

I do not know the engine or water pump being discussed here, so may be not helpful.

 

Bod.

[jonathanA]

41 minutes ago, SiFi said:

That is the question I keep coming back too, conflicted between what can stop a pump and how do you check?

I am going to check the overfilling this morning and if I can fit a temperature gauge

 

I think the fact the calorifier is getting hot suggests the pump is ok and pumping water round that circuit at least. 

 

to fit a temp gauge you need a 1/8 NPTE sender and matching gauge (less than a tenner off ebay ).  there is a blanking plug in the side of the pump/thermostat housing where you can fit it (yellow wire on my picture). at least there was on mine anyway !  If your lucky and your engine has the Lister wiring harness the wires will already be there and you can just pick them up and connect your gauge to the right wire on the back of the start panel. you probably just need to get the gauge working with whatever you have to hand at this stage though 🙂

 

you could temporarily fit the gauge sender in the place of the temp switch that should be the same size hole. 

 

 

[jake_crew]

Some water pumps have a rubber impeller which can loose its vanes.

 

It might be turning but not doing any pumping.

[David Mack]

17 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

I think the fact the calorifier is getting hot suggests the pump is ok and pumping water round that circuit at least. 

Is the domestic water in the calorifier getting hot? Or just the hose leading from the top of the engine to the calorifier? If the latter it doesn't prove the pump is working, that could just be convection occurring within the higher level pipes and hoses, which would occur when the engine is hot enough if the pump is doing nothing.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Peugeot 106 said:

I seem to remember a post where Tony B told a tale of a rubber hose where the inside delaminated and acted as a flap that only blocked when there was flow

That was exhaust hose, never known it on a large bore coolant hose, but i have known the inner layer to harden and shatter so fragments block small pipe fittings and ports.

39 minutes ago, jake_crew said:

Some water pumps have a rubber impeller which can loose its vanes.

 

It might be turning but not doing any pumping.

 

Never seen an engine water pump like that, only raw (canal) water pumps, but some proper marine engines use a raw water pump to circulate the coolant through a skin tank. It has been known for the metal/plastic impeller on engine water pumps to  rust away (as Bod said) or simply shatter or fall off the shaft, all of which would stop it pumping.

Until the OP extracts and tests the thermostat, we will not know much because being a bypass thermostat if it stays closed for longer that it should the engine is very likely to boil internally.

I think the OP said that the boat has been standing for some years. Has he had the skin tank hoses off and flushed the system in case the bottom of the skin tank or a hose is full of settled muck?

Edited June 29, 2023 by Tony Brooks

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, rusty69 said:

Assume you have a suitably sized skin tank, and the hull coating is not acting as an insulator with many layers of bitumen on?

If that were the case it would all be hot, not just the top IMO

[SiFi]

3 hours ago, Steve56 said:

One thing that could give an indication of pump operation. If you have the standard set up as per diagram remove the filler cap and run the engine up to a relatively fast speed. You should then see a steady trickle of water being returned to the tank via hose number 10.

Thanks, this useful

Edited June 29, 2023 by SiFi

[Peugeot 106]

WARNING If you take the thermostat out make sure the hole or jiggle pin is aligned the correct way as per the workshop mannual (available online)

good luck!

[SiFi]

OK, I've got to despair stage! Ticker-over for 30mins, with a bit of revving, with a combustion bubbler in the place of the header cap.  No colour change, no loss of water. Went to rev engine again and it 'hunted', turned-off, allowed to cool for 15 minutes ...... now it starts, runs for a second and dies.  

 

Abandoning cruise and heading home.

2 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

WARNING If you take the thermostat out make sure the hole or jiggle pin is aligned the correct way as per the workshop mannual (available online)

good luck!

I did not know about that, thanks ... I did wonder what it was.

[Tracy D'arth]

17 minutes ago, SiFi said:

OK, I've got to despair stage! Ticker-over for 30mins, with a bit of revving, with a combustion bubbler in the place of the header cap.  No colour change, no loss of water. Went to rev engine again and it 'hunted', turned-off, allowed to cool for 15 minutes ...... now it starts, runs for a second and dies.  

 

Abandoning cruise and heading home.

I did not know about that, thanks ... I did wonder what it was.

Fuel starvation. If it has been laid up for a long time, the fuel will be degraded and the muck from the tank, possibly fuel bug, will be everywhere in the system and filters.

[SiFi]

Fuel starvation sounds about right, unfortunately it was the final straw of the day for me. Thanks

[RLWP]

9 hours ago, SiFi said:

OK, I've got to despair stage! Ticker-over for 30mins, with a bit of revving, with a combustion bubbler in the place of the header cap.  No colour change, no loss of water. Went to rev engine again and it 'hunted', turned-off, allowed to cool for 15 minutes ...... now it starts, runs for a second and dies.  

 

Abandoning cruise and heading home.

I did not know about that, thanks ... I did wonder what it was.

 

We are starting to see LPW engines where the spring that joins the rack to the governor breaks - the hook on the end of the spring wears through. Makes the engine sort of uncontrollable

 

Richard

[Psychalist]

23 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

revving, with a combustion bubbler in the place of the header cap

I feel your frustration. I went through this process with our LPWS. It's annoying to have so many possible causes and contributing factors.  In my case, analysis over a frustrating few months finally revealed a head gasket leak. Initially a little coolant was blowing out the top of the header tank but only when the engine was hot and under reasonable load. Over time this degraded to happening under light load but never at tickover.  I'm surprised your engine overheats after only 30 minutes as it usually takes about 15 minutes to warm up.

 

What I learned was:

• Combustion leak testers might work but didn't show anything for me.
• The black pressure cap has a bronze coloured disc under a hole on the underside. Mine was faulty and it was possible to blow through it. This wasn't possible with a new replacement (Land Rover) from ebay.
• The Land Rover header tank isn't the most suitable as there are a couple of problems: 1) Volume insufficient for coolant expansion from a decent sized skin tank - I run mine almost empty, which results in full on a longer run. 2) the pipe from the exhaust cooler enters just under the cap which results in some coolant loss as the air being expelled drags some of the bypass coolant out with it. A common solution is to replace it with a larger higher version (Renault seems a popular choice) - I didn't do this .
• Conclusive evidence of a combustion leak only manifest after removing the head. This was the action of last resort as it is obviously the most expensive. It showed gasses were passing the gasket on cylinder 1. The cause was re-use of stretch head bolts from a recent rebuild. News ones should always be used.

[SiFi]

Thanks for this, what I don't understand is why a head gasket leak, even a small one produces an overheat. Is it simply that it drives out the coolant?

[Tony Brooks]

7 minutes ago, SiFi said:

Thanks for this, what I don't understand is why a head gasket leak, even a small one produces an overheat. Is it simply that it drives out the coolant?

 

One reason is that the gas will be at between 200C and 700C depending upon lead and power.

 

A small leak should not drive out coolant because it should collect at a high point and vent - if a facility for it to vent is provided. So in most skin thanks there is no vent, so a gradual build up of gasses will just push the coolant level down.

[Psychalist]

In my case the gassing was not obvious as there were no excessive bubbling in the coolant though the feed from the exhaust cooler did seem to be quite actively passing coolant. My problem was I didn't know what was normal as the boat was new to me. Mainly the symptom seemed to be over pressure and the header tank venting. As it progressed over the months, there did seem to be more bubbling whilst under load - I spent quite some time observing it under the deck boards whilst cruising. The engine didn't overheat until it finally got bad enough to stop circulation, probably through a mixture of cavitation and air lock.

 

There's no saying SiFi's situation is the same but it does bear some similarities. Some pictures follow, that I had meant to upload on a previous thread on this topic. Peugeot106 was particularly interested in the head and the absence of oil galleries across the head gasket. (Oil to the valves comes via the pushrods).

 

Here's the arrangement of the calorifier connection.

The spare wires are from the loom for a temperature gauge (not fitted). Temperature switch is on the end of the T piece at the top of the picture.

 

This is the gasket after the head was removed.

The carbon staining around the bore is the evidence of a compression leak.

 

And this is the corresponding part of the engine block.

 

Finally, the head, skimmed and cleaned:

 

[Peugeot 106]

1 hour ago, Psychalist said:

In my case the gassing was not obvious as there were no excessive bubbling in the coolant though the feed from the exhaust cooler did seem to be quite actively passing coolant. My problem was I didn't know what was normal as the boat was new to me. Mainly the symptom seemed to be over pressure and the header tank venting. As it progressed over the months, there did seem to be more bubbling whilst under load - I spent quite some time observing it under the deck boards whilst cruising. The engine didn't overheat until it finally got bad enough to stop circulation, probably through a mixture of cavitation and air lock.

 

There's no saying SiFi's situation is the same but it does bear some similarities. Some pictures follow, that I had meant to upload on a previous thread on this topic. Peugeot106 was particularly interested in the head and the absence of oil galleries across the head gasket. (Oil to the valves comes via the pushrods).

 

Here's the arrangement of the calorifier connection.

The spare wires are from the loom for a temperature gauge (not fitted). Temperature switch is on the end of the T piece at the top of the picture.

 

This is the gasket after the head was removed.

The carbon staining around the bore is the evidence of a compression leak.

 

And this is the corresponding part of the engine block.

 

Finally, the head, skimmed and cleaned:

 

Hi psychalist I never got round to changing the head gasket as I was really busy over winter. If you remember I did change it about 2 years ago but reused the bolts. I’m sure they have been used a few times before. At the moment I am going against the current on the Thames (Limehouse to Lechlade) so pretty full on with the power. I just have a recovery (milk) bottle on the floor fed from the overflow under the radiator cap on a mannicooler.  
 

Normally it works fine and the bottle stays at the same level. The temp gauge  stays at 80 deg C. Sometimes the level goes up on the overflow  bottle and if I stop for lunch then start again it goes up further but doesn’t get sucked back. I just tip it back in the mannicooler next morning. When I take the radiator cap (new 15psi) off the mannicooler there is always glug glug so it is sealing and the engine has never overheated, no water in lube oil oil in coolant. I have a domestic radiator bleed valve in the skin tank and from time to time get a tiny bit of air out with a radiator key. 

 

I have tools,  gaskets and new bolts onboard and am not frightened of replacing the gasket during the trip I’m sure I could find someone to do a skim. I also

have a s/h exhaust manifold at home with expansion tank so guess what this winters jobs will include ! No one else seems to use the mannicooler on the LPWS2

 

thoughts

1) head gasket blowing

2) localised colant flashing steam

3) something to do coolant in skin tank cooling before engine coolant and shutting thermostat 

4)system not vacuum tight so not sucking water back but I have pressure tested overflow and gas new fuel pipe and jubilee

 

i changed thermostat from 80 to old lows74 deg c one but can’t think that would affect this. The engine bay was getting hot as I put too much blacking on. When I realised that I didn’t put the specified 80 deg c thermostat back in

 

i read recently that a thimble full of engine knowledge doesn’t mean you can fix it easily but it can cause you to have a bucket full of worries.( A bit like looking illnesses up on the internet.)!

 

maybe I should just leave it after all it’s done the Ribble Link, Trent, Severn Estuary , Tidal Thames without missing a heat or overheating

 

Feeling very smug as did oil/filter change last night bang on 100 hours. In the middle of Henley regatta no oil spilled

 

all best

 

 

 

 

[SiFi]

22 hours ago, RLWP said:

 

We are starting to see LPW engines where the spring that joins the rack to the governor breaks - the hook on the end of the spring wears through. Makes the engine sort of uncontrollable

 

Richard

That's interesting, I have come to a similar situation where I am suspecting the rack and governor.  Today I have started to remove the end cover to just be sure that they are still linked and working. 

[Peugeot 106]

11 minutes ago, SiFi said:

That's interesting, I have come to a similar situation where I am suspecting the rack and governor.  Today I have started to remove the end cover to just be sure that they are still linked and working. 

If it’s on the just have courage. i replaced the speeder o ring and the speeder spring with the help of mirrors, fisherman’s forceps, torches and string with the engine still on the boat against the bulkhead . I did first get some  practice in on a spare engine in the dark jammed against my shed wall with the lights out first!

to be honest I doubt very much this is your problem I would leave the governor well  alone you can gat into all sorts of problems with it including runaway. My problem  was a very small oil leak which started to do my head in. Please look elsewhere first