lister overheating

[Peugeot 106]

WARNING

If you do decide to change the head gasket this engine has hydraulic tappets. Read the Workshop Manual re allowing time for the oil to bleed down. Changing the gasket is easy enough allowing time for the oil to bleed down I’ve been told is important. 
The Manual is available on line

[jonathanA]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

From what I remember from a previous post, it is not just disconnecting a couple of hoses, It involves a kit with a T piece. This could well be a load of nonsense, but I don't think it is that straight forward.

you are right Tony.  The calorifier kit includes a Tee Piece that fits into a plug just below the thermostat housing, where the temperature sender is normally fitted.  Its easy enough to remove that tee piece of blank it off I suppose.

 

What I can't remember and I'm not on my boat to have a look, is where the return from the calorifier goes as that would need to be dealt with too. 

 

A couple more pics from @SiFi would help I think. 

[Peugeot 106]

21 hours ago, SiFi said:

The cooled exhaust is in circuit with the skin tank and this is connected to the top of the skin tank.  The thermostat is at the other end of the manifold heat exchanger.  I've attached a pic.  

 

Is there a reliable way of checking the water pump?

 

Thank you

The black hose on the right looks like a perfect inverted U airlock assuming it is water?

[jonathanA]

i'm guessing thats the return from the cauliflower and looks to be going into a tee piece of some sort. even if that was airlocked I'm not sure that should be causing the overheating  ?

[SiFi]

8 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

WARNING

If you do decide to change the head gasket this engine has hydraulic tappets. Read the Workshop Manual re allowing time for the oil to bleed down. Changing the gasket is easy enough allowing time for the oil to bleed down I’ve been told is important. 
The Manual is available on line

Thanks for the warning, much appreciated, I must admit I am finding it daunting to think about changing the gasket.

 

People will think me daft but I have just sealed a polythene bag over the expansion tank inlet. My thinking was if there is combustion gases in the coolant that maybe the bag would capture them!! And with a good sniff I would be able to tell if there were any fumes getting into the water. Also maybe the bag would somehow be blown up like a balloon.  Gave up after 20minutes with no smell or expansion.

 

I have ordered a combustion test bubbler and will give it a go.

6 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

The black hose on the right looks like a perfect inverted U airlock assuming it is water?

I agree, but the photo is deceptive, the tube climbs continuously, levels and then very slightly dips as it reenters the engine. As mentioned elsewhere, it connects to the cauliflower.  

 

I read in a 2008 yachting posting that maybe the cauliflower is taking too much flow from the skin tank.  I have tried clamping both the pipes to the cauliflower to see if it helped.

6 hours ago, jonathanA said:

you are right Tony.  The calorifier kit includes a Tee Piece that fits into a plug just below the thermostat housing, where the temperature sender is normally fitted.  Its easy enough to remove that tee piece of blank it off I suppose.

 

What I can't remember and I'm not on my boat to have a look, is where the return from the calorifier goes as that would need to be dealt with too. 

 

A couple more pics from @SiFi would help I think. 

Here is a pic, unfortunately I don't have with me the fittings needed to take out the kit, 

23 hours ago, rusty69 said:

I added a calorifier heating loop into our lpw4s without problem. However, if I had encountered a cooling problem after fitting, I would have removed it. 

 

Was it working OK before? Have you got the correct thermostat fitted? 

When I bought the boat I was told that it had just been sailed down country to the boatyard (Slough Arm), I then fitted the calorifier kit with the boat bankside. I can't be sure it was working before.

[Peugeot 106]

You’re not daft that sounds like a good idea. Tony and Tracey are both expert engine people though maybe not so experienced with the Alpha engines. If it’s not bubbling into the expansion tank from a head gasket I think they are correct you’ve got a coolant flow problem. Is there a vent in the shin rank top? Try running with the water cap off and squeezing the two large pipes (milking them to expell air out of the cap). You want the pipes to run up from the skin tank in a gradual sweep no inverted U’s .You need to get rid of any air in the high points. 

Aftet about 10 mins the skin tank should start to get warm from the bottom but it won’t work properly if there is air in it. 
according to Beta air in the calorifier can cause ovetheating but as I haven’t got one I can’t comment. 
My L PWS has never 

missed a beat  despite minor oil leaks which I have fixed. Don’t ditch it

[SiFi]

Today have been flushing through via the expansion tank (highest point) after running engine on full revs for a short while. A little air from skin tank and a couple other places.  About to try another slow dash back towards my starting boatyard.

4 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

You’re not daft that sounds like a good idea. Tony and Tracey are both expert engine people though maybe not so experienced with the Alpha engines. If it’s not bubbling into the expansion tank from a head gasket I think they are correct you’ve got a coolant flow problem. Is there a vent in the shin rank top? Try running with the water cap off and squeezing the two large pipes (milking them to expell air out of the cap). You want the pipes to run up from the skin tank in a gradual sweep no inverted U’s .You need to get rid of any air in the high points. 

Aftet about 10 mins the skin tank should start to get warm from the bottom but it won’t work properly if there is air in it. 
according to Beta air in the calorifier can cause ovetheating but as I haven’t got one I can’t comment. 
My L PWS has never 

missed a beat  despite minor oil leaks which I have fixed. Don’t ditch it

Thanks.

 

My skin tank gets warm from the top!  Very reluctant to give up on LPWS

I have tried to understand the cooling circuit.

 

The lower skin hose climbs to what looks like a heat exchanger connected to the gearbox. Then water travels horizontally to below the thermostat where the calorifier hose connects .... then it gets confusing.

 

I have been told that the thermostat is 'double' acting. That it lets water move up to the exhaust manifold and also, my assumption, allows the return from the skin tank to enter the engine circuit.  Two people have told me that the engine will always overheat if the thermostat is removed 😯

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

32 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

Aftet about 10 mins the skin tank should start to get warm from the bottom but it won’t work properly if there is air in it. 
according to Beta air in the calorifier can cause ovetheating but as I haven’t got one I can’t comment. 

 

The bottom of the ski tank should only get hot as described IF the hot inlet is at the bottom, if it is at the top then the top will start to get hot first, if there is air in the tank then where the air bubble is will not get hot very quickly.

 

I can't see how air in the calorifier can possibly cause overheating unless the skin tank is far too small.

 

 

 

Has what look like a T with the smaller rubber hose on it been connected to what I think is the return from the skin tank. I think that I can see some bodgers seal around it. If that is correct, then I think it might provide a "short circuit" route for coolant. I am not familiar with those engines and don't know where the various pipes and connections go to, so I can't say more.

 

 

 

[SiFi]

What happens if the expansion tank cap is faulty?

 

Mine is leaking before the overheat alarm sounds and I'm wondering whether the loss of fluid is contributing to or causing the overheating.

 

I know I'm 'grasping at straws'. I wish I had a temperature gauge.

[rusty69]

11 minutes ago, SiFi said:

I wish I had a temperature gauge.

Our Lpw4s has no temp gauge either. I use an IR thermometer to check up on it occasionaly.

 

Pic of ours attached FWIW

Edited June 28, 2023 by rusty69

[Peugeot 106]

41 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

The bottom of the ski tank should only get hot as described IF the hot inlet is at the bottom, if it is at the top then the top will start to get hot first, if there is air in the tank then where the air bubble is will not get hot very quickly.

 

I can't see how air in the calorifier can possibly cause overheating unless the skin tank is far too small.

 

 

 

Has what look like a T with the smaller rubber hose on it been connected to what I think is the return from the skin tank. I think that I can see some bodgers seal around it. If that is correct, then I think it might provide a "short circuit" route for coolant. I am not familiar with those engines and don't know where the various pipes and connections go to, so I can't say more.

 

 

 

Tony is as usual correct. Top of tank hot then bottom. 
Tony could he run it at all with the Big rubber hose bend connected straight to the bottom of the skin tank ie no cooling to gearbox ? It would be simple to connect and could allay his fears re the head gasket. Not sure where his fill pipe for the header tank goes though it normally goes to the bottom of the skin tank. The Beta manual says overheating with skin tank can be caused by not bleeding air properly including calorifier and associated pipe work presumably gearbox cooling pipe work too. Do slugs of air migrate into the engine cooling bit?

 

10 minutes ago, SiFi said:

What happens if the expansion tank cap is faulty?

 

Mine is leaking before the overheat alarm sounds and I'm wondering whether the loss of fluid is contributing to or causing the overheating.

 

I know I'm 'grasping at straws'. I wish I had a temperature gauge.

Also beta say pressure cap loose causes overheating. Lister Pettee told me 15psi cap fine

14 minutes ago, SiFi said:

What happens if the expansion tank cap is faulty?

 

Mine is leaking before the overheat alarm sounds and I'm wondering whether the loss of fluid is contributing to or causing the overheating.

 

I know I'm 'grasping at straws'. I wish I had a temperature gauge.

The temp gauge and switch on mine are sited in the 

bosses on the side of the water pump not the pipe as yours

[rusty69]

23 minutes ago, SiFi said:

I wish I had a temperature gauge.

Forgive the somewhat stupid question, but how do you know it is overheating?

[Tony Brooks]

22 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

Tony is as usual correct. Top of tank hot then bottom. 
Tony could he run it at all with the Big rubber hose bend connected straight to the bottom of the skin tank ie no cooling to gearbox ? It would be simple to connect and could allay his fears re the head gasket. Not sure where his fill pipe for the header tank goes though it normally goes to the bottom of the skin tank. The Beta manual says overheating with skin tank can be caused by not bleeding air properly including calorifier and associated pipe work presumably gearbox cooling pipe work too. Do slugs of air migrate into the engine cooling bit?

 

Also beta say pressure cap loose causes overheating. Lister Pettee told me 15psi cap fine

The temp gauge and switch on mine are sited in the 

bosses on the side of the water pump not the pipe as yours

 

He could run it without gearbox cooling but not for long and preferably not in gear, but I don't see how doing that would rule the head gasket in or out. From what he says, I suspect it is not a head gasket problem, but that is a guess.

 

There is so much variation in boats, I don't think that you can say where the fill pipe goes on a particular boat. On mine, it went straight into the small header tank and into the top of the tank, so it made it self-bleeding I suspect that on most boats the filler is straight into the exhaust manifold via a radiator cap. The important thing is to pipe in such a way that air can not get trapped in bows and bends in the pipe and that any air moves either into the skin tank, for venting, or out of the filler. Slugs of air can migrate anywhere on a poor system.

 

For canal use a pressure cap should not be required because of the low power and speed. Modern engines are pressurised because certain parts inside the cylinder head can get so hot under high speeds and power, the coolant can't carry the heat away fast enough so those hot spots would cause localised boiling. Until the steam expelled enough coolant, the engine coolant temperature would be fairly normal, but it would be expelling coolant. I don't think this has anything to do with the pressure cap, but it would do no harm to buy a new pressure cap.

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Tony Brooks

[rusty69]

9 hours ago, jonathanA said:

What I can't remember and I'm not on my boat to have a look, is where the return from the calorifier goes as that would need to be dealt with too. 

The return from the calorifier on our setup circled in yellow, the flow in red, if it helps at all.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by rusty69

[Eeyore]

26 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

The return from the calorifier on our setup circled in yellow, the flow in red, if it helps at all.

 

 

Curious, I thought it would be the other way around?

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Eeyore

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, Eeyore said:

Curious, I thought it was the other way around?

 

Could be. 

[Peugeot 106]

42 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Forgive the somewhat stupid question, but how do you know it is overheating?

Good question? The gauge and switch seem to be in the gearbox cooing hose?

Also is the calorifier getting hot?

[jonathanA]

20 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

Good question? The gauge and switch seem to be in the gearbox cooing hose?

Also is the calorifier getting hot?

No I think its in the cauliflower feed. The pukka lister kit has an adapter which fits into the side of the thermostat housing after removing the temp switch. Then the temp switch is fitted into the adapter

 

2 hours ago, SiFi said:

I have been told that the thermostat is 'double' acting. That it lets water move up to the exhaust manifold and also, my assumption, allows the return from the skin tank to enter the engine circuit.  Two people have told me that the engine will always overheat if the thermostat is removed 😯

I don't know who has told you that buts it's not true, They are a very simple thermostat. How can running without a thermostat cause overheating ? 

I've done that on my lister when the stat was faulty and had no problem.

 

If you have been overheating then thats probably buggered the stat anyway.

[SiFi]

Here are some answers to the more recent questions.  

 

I believe it's overheating because the temperature alarm goes off and the expansion/header tank cap is losing water and the first time billowing steam.  Takes about 25-30 minutes from cold. 

 

The calorifier and skin tank and all the pipes get very hot.  There is one thing that puzzles me.  When the engine is running hot the top half of the skin tank gets really hot but the lower half never gets so hot that you can't touch it.  I would think that this cooler water would be enough to stop the engine from overheating.

 

I was concerned that the calorifier was taking too much of the pump flow and so I clamped its hoses.  It did not seem to help.

 

Out of desperation I've ordered a new stat and part of me wants to buy a new cap for the expansion tank.  It look like a simple black cap rather than a pressure cap.

 

I've bought a combustion test kit (bubble type) for the expansion tank and tomorrow I will try it.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by SiFi

[Steve56]

7 hours ago, SiFi said:

 

 

I have been told that the thermostat is 'double' acting. That it lets water move up to the exhaust manifold and also, my assumption, allows the return from the skin tank to enter the engine circuit.  Two people have told me that the engine will always overheat if the thermostat is removed 😯

 

 

The thermostat could be called double acting. It has an extra plate on the bottom. The reason for this is that the Alpha engines had an internal bypass to allow coolant to flow around the block until the thermostat opens. This is to ensure you don't get localised hot spots within the block. As the thermostat opens this extra plate closes the bypass and allows coolant to be returned to the skin tank. The reason for not running without a  thermostat is that the coolant can short circuit and cause an overheat situation. The coolant will take the path of least resistance.

5 hours ago, Eeyore said:

Curious, I thought it would be the other way around?

 

You are correct. It is definitely the other way around.

[Tony Brooks]

5 hours ago, Steve56 said:

The thermostat could be called double acting. It has an extra plate on the bottom. The reason for this is that the Alpha engines had an internal bypass to allow coolant to flow around the block until the thermostat opens. This is to ensure you don't get localised hot spots within the block. As the thermostat opens this extra plate closes the bypass and allows coolant to be returned to the skin tank. The reason for not running without a  thermostat is that the coolant can short circuit and cause an overheat situation. The coolant will take the path of least resistance.

 

 

So it is a bypass stat and almost certainly a waxstat that will often leak wax when badly overheated. That cause it to stay closed when it should have opened and short circuit the coolant back into the engine as described above.

 

 

I have lost track of which photo refers to which boat, but I note this one does not seem to have the T piece linking into what I think is the return form the skin tank.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

If the skin tank is not warming from the top to the bottom, you have not got circulation.

 

Some way the circulation is getting short circuited, this is what my experience with this Lister engine is telling me but I can't remember why it happens.

[rusty69]

8 hours ago, SiFi said:

 

The calorifier and skin tank and all the pipes get very hot.  There is one thing that puzzles me.  When the engine is running hot the top half of the skin tank gets really hot but the lower half never gets so hot that you can't touch it.  I would think that this cooler water would be enough to stop the engine from overheating.

Assume you have a suitably sized skin tank, and the hull coating is not acting as an insulator with many layers of bitumen on?

[Steve56]

40 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

So it is a bypass stat and almost certainly a waxstat that will often leak wax when badly overheated. That cause it to stay closed when it should have opened and short circuit the coolant back into the engine as described above.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As you rightly say the thermostat is basically a normal wax state, but with the extra flap on the bottom to seal the bypass as the stat opens.

What is shown in the photo is the hot water feed to the calorifier. If no calorifier was fitted then the temperature switch would fit directly into the pump. When a calorifier was fitted or a kit ordered then Lister would supply this special union to allow for fitting of the switch and the hose. The return hose would connect onto a t-piece which was on the return pipe which can just be seen at the bottom of the photo.

[jonathanA]

just to be clear that picture is my lister NOT  Si-Fi's.   which is this one  and not the proper lister part in use, hence the temp switch in the pipe, don't see why that would matter.   Does seem to me to be a flow problem - perhaps a faulty stat or wrong stat ?   I suspect the issue with the expansion tank could be overfilling ?