The pricing of boats another £150k hopefull NB Stafford

[charles123]

I wish I had your talent for valuing boats without even going to visit them first. Obviously a lot of time, attention, skill and careful, well-considered thought goes into arriving at the figures you provide. Do you carry out full surveys without actually being at the boat as well?

 

Well Dominic with your attitude when I put Lyra on the market in the summer you can be sure I wont be asking Rugby Boats to sell if for me

 

Charles

[SoJo]

Shame,because Dominic is one of the best in the business.Your loss.

[kingofthecut]

Guess what just came passed the Samuel Barlow at Alvecote

 

[starman]

Well Dominic with your attitude when I put Lyra on the market in the summer you can be sure I wont be asking Rugby Boats to sell if for me

 

Charles

 

In fact defending the need for a professional approach to pricing and selling boats actually suggests a pretty good boat broker...

[david and julie]

Well Dominic with your attitude when I put Lyra on the market in the summer you can be sure I wont be asking Rugby Boats to sell if for me

 

Charles

No reflection on Dominic intended, but do you think you would actually need a broker to sell Lyra anyway, Charles?

[charles123]

No reflection on Dominic intended, but do you think you would actually need a broker to sell Lyra anyway, Charles?

 

I would consider using a broker if the broker would accept a fixed fee I was willing to pay, in other words I would not be prepared to pay the kind of % based fees that is the normal practice in charging

 

That fee would be less than £1k inc VAT

 

Charles

[PeterG]

Ummm errr table cupboard ? and the range has no flue !

Picky moi or what

Theophilus clicky

 

Chris

 

The picture of the back cabin looks reversed as well as no flue or is the small porthole also false?

[Dominic M]

Shame,because Dominic is one of the best in the business.Your loss.

 

That's a very kind comment and much appreciated. Thank you.

In fact defending the need for a professional approach to pricing and selling boats actually suggests a pretty good boat broker...

It is impossible to place a value on a boat without seeing it in the flesh. Boats tend to be fairly individual - most of them anyway. You cannot take a car approach - 2003 Ford Focus will be worth £xxx subject to a few provisos to do with condition and optional extras. Boats are too individual for there to be a "Glasses Guide" to their value.

 

To value a boat properly you have to see it and to place yourself in the mindset of the surveyor that a buyer might employ. Otherwise the vendor is being given false hopes.

 

I'm not pretending I get it right every time, but I do try my best to give an honest opinion based upon knowledge of the current market and experience. And, very importantly, on a gut feeling. On occasion that ends up with me walking away because the owner thinks his/her boat is worth a lot more than I think it is. I always hope that they are right and I am wrong.

 

I'm certainly not going to comment on the value of the boat that sparked this topic. Either one thinks it is worth it or one doesn't. I can see no value in posting a personal belief based on thin air that it is overpriced, on this or any other forum. What useful service does that provide to anyone? It seems snide, pointless and unnecessary.

[david and julie]

It is impossible to place a value on a boat without seeing it in the flesh. Boats tend to be fairly individual - most of them anyway. You cannot take a car approach - 2003 Ford Focus will be worth £xxx subject to a few provisos to do with condition and optional extras.

I can help you with the Focus Dominic, you may get about £1500 for it or about 15 times the value of a Kia - but you would have to be quick with the Kia - scrap shells may drop again.

[churchward]

I'm certainly not going to comment on the value of the boat that sparked this topic. Either one thinks it is worth it or one doesn't. I can see no value in posting a personal belief based on thin air that it is overpriced, on this or any other forum. What useful service does that provide to anyone? It seems snide, pointless and unnecessary.

 

Actually I see no harm (as long as kept civil and with some reasoning to the chatter) in discussing boats for sale or otherwise after all this forum is just the place for it. In fact many people make snap judgments on appearance everyday when looking around the brokers online sites in terms of what attracts their eye to want to come and see. If there is no point to having pictures of a boat online so people can decide if they want to see it a lot of brokers are waisting their money.

 

I know that is is different discussing a boats worth here but it is not a million miles away and we are all potential customers. Of course such discussion can bring out the worst in people and there are folk who just like "throwing turds" and want to put down everything which of course is very unattractive and can be very frustrating getting past to see the more meaningfully stuff here.

[Dominic M]

I can help you with the Focus Dominic, you may get about £1500 for it or about 15 times the value of a Kia - but you would have to be quick with the Kia - scrap shells may drop again.

Is that with or without the sunroof?

 

Actually I see no harm (as long as kept civil and with some reasoning to the chatter) in discussing boats for sale or otherwise after all this forum is just the place for it. In fact many people make snap judgments on appearance everyday when looking around the brokers online sites in terms of what attracts their eye to want to come and see. If there is no point to having pictures of a boat online so people can decide if they want to see it a lot of brokers are waisting their money.

 

I know that is is different discussing a boats worth here but it is not a million miles away and we are all potential customers. Of course such discussion can bring out the worst in people and there are folk who just like "throwing turds" and want to put down everything which of course is very unattractive and can be very frustrating getting past to see the more meaningfully stuff here.

I broadly agree. Decent pictures are hugely important. Not for nothing do I use around £2000 worth of camera and lenses plus £1000 worth of Adobe design programmes to compile it all. Plus the experience involved in knowing both boats and the computer technology required to compile and transmit that information. So is an honest description vital to gaining customer confidence. Particularly if, like me, you sell boats from all over the waterway system. People don't forget if you send them on a 200 mile wild goose chase, and they don't come back.

 

I did feel that from the outset of this topic there was a desire by the OP to put down and denigrate another forum member's boat. A forum member with more boat experience than most of us added together.

Edited February 21, 2009 by Dominic M

[david and julie]

Is that with or without the sunroof?

With, if its steel, otherwise a fiver less.

 

I did feel that from the outset of this topic there was a desire by the OP to put down and denigrate another forum member's boat. A forum member with more boat experience than most of us added together.

I suspect you felt wrong this time Dominic - I know Charles personally and I know he wouldn't denigrate bargeeboy's(sorry I don't know your name) workmanship - he's mainly talking about money - the builders experience or good reputation isn't in doubt.

 

As businessmen lets be realistic - bargeeboy has overheads like the rest of us and wants a realistic return on his efforts - no problem there. But he also -to a degree - agree's with much of what Charles said - and what we all realistically know, because he said this.

Everything is for sale and it is only worth what somebody is prepared to pay.

 

My personal thoughts - despite being called a F***wit, an idiot and stupid, even though I never criticised the boat or the builder , are that the guys have done a nice job and in particular the paint scheme - but its still not for me because I want a widebeam next time.

 

I must ask bargeeboy though why someone would want to pay for 2 hulls when their only getting one? otherwise good luck to you - can you avoid Gordon's mob in Poland?

 

£150k, well in a previous thread I wrote about the cost of the project and whilst bearing in mind that if it was an unconverted motor in sound (not re-built) condition it would command high 60k. a new 70' 'modern boat' built by Narrowcraft is around 90k plus. So there you have it!

[bargeeboy]

Well Dominic with your attitude when I put Lyra on the market in the summer you can be sure I wont be asking Rugby Boats to sell if for me

 

Charles

 

Guess you won't ask me either !

[charles123]

Guess you won't ask me either !

 

I might do, you have kept your responses neutral without personalising anything, I do have a view that brokers charge too much but I would like to think they are also business men so if someone came along with a nice boat to sell I would think, £1k, its going to sell itself just needs marketing, thats an easy £1k I have made (less costs)

 

And since I will be in the market late 2010 or 11 depending on how long it takes to sell my boat to order a replacement I might be a customer since I will be after a boat to be built along the lines of a tug and there are not many who do them well

 

Charles

[bargeeboy]

And since I will be in the market late 2010 or 11 depending on how long it takes to sell my boat to order a replacement I might be a customer since I will be after a boat to be built along the lines of a tug and there are not many who do them well

 

Charles

 

We do part-exchange !!

[koukouvagia]

Ι’m not really surprised by all the adverse comment that the restoration of Stafford has caused. However, irrespective of whether you like the restoration, the colour scheme, the windows, the oak finishes etc. I applaud the fact that an historic boat has been preserved for the next generation. Both Stafford and Dover may not be to everyone’s liking, but these boats have not been restored in such a way that they can’t be returned to their original working trim if an owner fifty years hence wants to do so.

What would have been reprehensible is if the restoration had destroyed for ever historic parts of the boat. There is one josher on the system, and I’m not going to name it, where a previous owner years ago chopped off the bottom foot of the hull all round, including the knees, simply so that the boat would not be so deep drafted but would appear to be sitting deeper in the water as though it were laden. The restoration of this boat cost a fortune at the time, but unlike Stafford, has been completely ruined and would, if it came onto the market, not justify a raised price just because it had been an ex-working boat.

There’ll be someone willing to pay £150k, but it may take a while. I had to wait eighteen months around the time of the last recession until an enthusiast came up with what I thought was a fair price for a vintage engine I was selling.

[GUMPY]

What would have been reprehensible is if the restoration had destroyed for ever historic parts of the boat. There is one josher on the system, and I’m not going to name it, where a previous owner years ago chopped off the bottom foot of the hull all round, including the knees, simply so that the boat would not be so deep drafted but would appear to be sitting deeper in the water as though it were laden.

It also had a Smallbone of Devizes kitchen if I remember correctly. Having said that I cant remember the name of the boat.......

 

Oh and as for prices, just watch them tumble over the next year or so, in the yacht market there are loads of good boats that have been for sale for ages and are just not moving, sensible sellers are cutting prices and getting out whilst they still can, it will happen here as well.

 

I have felt for ages that the NB market is way overpriced and has been due for a fall of between 15 and 35% .

 

 

Julian

 

who in 2007 said a similar thing about house prices and was told he was deluded.

[Neil TNC]

It also had a Smallbone of Devizes kitchen if I remember correctly. Having said that I cant remember the name of the boat.......

 

Oh and as for prices, just watch them tumble over the next year or so, in the yacht market there are loads of good boats that have been for sale for ages and are just not moving, sensible sellers are cutting prices and getting out whilst they still can, it will happen here as well.

 

I have felt for ages that the NB market is way overpriced and has been due for a fall of between 15 and 35% .

 

 

Julian

 

who in 2007 said a similar thing about house prices and was told he was deluded.

 

I was going to say something, but it would upset part of the boating community.

*something* is propping up the price of sub 30 grand narrowboats at the moment.

But as you say, this will not last for much longer.

[martyn 1]

The LW range was lighter weight development of the L2, which is the same bore & stroke but more of a 'proper' marine engine with crankcase doors etc. The LW was produced by Gardners in vehicle, stationary, rail traction and marine versions but as I understand it was first developed as a vehicle engine as a market was identified after people started converting petrol vehicles to diesel in the early 1930s using the much heavier L2 engine. The Kromhout engine seems to be a hybrid between the L2 and the LW, in effect LW blocks & heads on an L2-style crankcase (the L2 had individual heads one per cylinder, the LW grouped into twos and threes).

Interesting that either the pic in the link is reversed, or the engine is a mirror image of the standard Gardner layout. Also it has originally had a vacuum brake exhauster fitted, unusual for such a relatively small horsepower engine.

 

Tim

 

 

We supplied the engine for Stafford, The Kromhout LW that is fitted into her is a mirror image of the Gardner setup but other than that it is identical in construction, Kromhout did them in both arrangements as the standard Gardner arrangment is the wrong way round for continental roads. You would be stood in the middle of the road to get to the injector pump on a Gardner arrangement version.

 

As for marine versions where gardner did pairs both of the same hand, one engine you would have to crawl round the back of to get to injector pumps etc. Kromhout did handed pairs with one the same as the Gardner and one mirrored version that put all the pumps on the inboard side.

 

Kromhout did the LW version engine (same as the UK Gardners) and also did what they called the LS. The LS is the Hybrid as you have noted above. the LS had the L2 style crankcase "proper marine" but with the LW top end.

 

Was trying to post some pics of both LS and LW Kromhouts but cant get it to work.

 

Oh and these 3LW Kromhout Gardners were fitted into buses by the dutch!! hence the vacuum brake exhauster adaption on the timing case.

 

 

Martyn

[Timleech]

We supplied the engine for Stafford, The Kromhout LW that is fitted into her is a mirror image of the Gardner setup but other than that it is identical in construction, Kromhout did them in both arrangements as the standard Gardner arrangment is the wrong way round for continental roads. You would be stood in the middle of the road to get to the injector pump on a Gardner arrangement version.

 

As for marine versions where gardner did pairs both of the same hand, one engine you would have to crawl round the back of to get to injector pumps etc. Kromhout did handed pairs with one the same as the Gardner and one mirrored version that put all the pumps on the inboard side.

 

Kromhout did the LW version engine (same as the UK Gardners) and also did what they called the LS. The LS is the Hybrid as you have noted above. the LS had the L2 style crankcase "proper marine" but with the LW top end.

 

Was trying to post some pics of both LS and LW Kromhouts but cant get it to work.

 

Oh and these 3LW Kromhout Gardners were fitted into buses by the dutch!! hence the vacuum brake exhauster adaption on the timing case.

 

 

Martyn

 

Martyn

 

Going a bit further off topic, just on the off chance - do you know anyone who has any L2 big end shells, -.015"? (two pairs)

I've just taken them for remetalling, but original ones would be better (and quicker, there's a 3 week wait though that's not a big issue).

 

I also need one or two small end bushes, they should be easy to get but I'm a bit out of the loop these days for that sort of thing.

 

Cheers

Tim

[Chris-B]

Guess what just came passed the Samuel Barlow at Alvecote

 

 

 

Didn't know Malcolm had a younger brother !!!

 

Chris

[Gibbo]

Martyn

 

Going a bit further off topic, just on the off chance - do you know anyone who has any L2 big end shells, -.015"? (two pairs)

I've just taken them for remetalling, but original ones would be better (and quicker, there's a 3 week wait though that's not a big issue).

 

I also need one or two small end bushes, they should be easy to get but I'm a bit out of the loop these days for that sort of thing.

 

Cheers

Tim

 

Have you tried Bill Geldhart (sp?) at Poynton? You probably know him but if not, he seems to have an uncanny knack at sources Gardner parts.

 

Gibbo

[Timleech]

Have you tried Bill Geldhart (sp?) at Poynton? You probably know him but if not, he seems to have an uncanny knack at sources Gardner parts.

 

Gibbo

 

I haven't tried anybody, I made the assumption that they were unavailable as such things were very thin on the ground 20-odd years ago. Just thought I would ask the question of someone who is apparently heavily into that sort of work today.

The small ends are the same as for the LW so should be easy enough to find. The guy who is doing the remetalling has one on the shelf, didn't want to be bothered trying to source a second so that's down to me.

I do have two pairs of standard L2 big end shells on my own shelf, but there can't be many L2 engines still running on a standard sized crank.

 

Last I heard of Bill, a year or so ago, he was off to retirement in Spain.

 

Cheers

Tim

[Dominic M]

It also had a Smallbone of Devizes kitchen if I remember correctly. Having said that I cant remember the name of the boat.......

 

Oh and as for prices, just watch them tumble over the next year or so, in the yacht market there are loads of good boats that have been for sale for ages and are just not moving, sensible sellers are cutting prices and getting out whilst they still can, it will happen here as well.

 

I have felt for ages that the NB market is way overpriced and has been due for a fall of between 15 and 35% .

 

 

Julian

 

who in 2007 said a similar thing about house prices and was told he was deluded.

It depends what sector of the market you are looking at. There is no doubt that orders for new boats are badly hit, and builders are falling by the wayside. But the second hand market remains buoyant. Interestingly, the same is true in the car market apparently - new cars are not selling, yet second hand cars are enjoying the best trading conditions for several years, with values increasing.

 

I still fail to see a direct correlation between house prices and boat prices. The average house price between 1990 and 2008 rose 201%. The average inland waterways boat price did not, or anywhere near that. In real terms they probably stayed about level. So I am yet to be convinced that they will suffer the same dramatic falls. Why should they?

[denboy]

Martyn

 

Going a bit further off topic, just on the off chance - do you know anyone who has any L2 big end shells, -.015"? (two pairs)

I've just taken them for remetalling, but original ones would be better (and quicker, there's a 3 week wait though that's not a big issue).

 

I also need one or two small end bushes, they should be easy to get but I'm a bit out of the loop these days for that sort of thing.

 

Cheers

Tim

could try bob as well he might have them

http://www.classicenginesandspares.co.uk/

Edited February 23, 2009 by denboy