Sellers Survey

[Tacet]

When you agree the price with a buyer, you can reasonably expect it to reflect the condition as reported in your survey.  If the buyer closes to arrange their own survey, it should narrow the wriggle room for any discussions on a reduction in price to only those not mentioned in your survey.

[Cheese]

4 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

You can do whatever you want with the survey it’s yours, you’ve paid someone on your behalf to do the survey. As long as you make it clear it’s yours and it is only as good as the day it was done.

 You can’t sell it as it’s worthless in monetary value.

Agree you can't sell it, but that doesn't mean it is worthless.

 

If there were two identical boats for sale, one priced at say £60,000 with no recent survey and the other at £61,000 with a recent seller-commissioned survey available to view indicating it is broadly in good condition and/or indicating relatively minor work needed, I reckon the second might attract more interest from buyers.

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Cheese said:

Agree you can't sell it, but that doesn't mean it is worthless.

 

If there were two identical boats for sale, one priced at say £60,000 with no recent survey and the other at £61,000 with a recent seller-commissioned survey available to view indicating it is broadly in good condition and/or indicating relatively minor work needed, I reckon the second might attract more interest from buyers.

 

but only if you trusted the survey. As mentioned, it is easy to doctor a survey. A vendor produced survey would make me suspicious unless they could prove it had not been doctored.

[Cheese]

Agreed. But it indicates it is a boat worth the buyer commissioning their own survey on. Buyers don't want to risk paying for multiple surveys on boats that may turn out to need £000s of work on them.

[WulfNut]

2 minutes ago, Tacet said:

When you agree the price with a buyer, you can reasonably expect it to reflect the condition as reported in your survey.  If the buyer closes to arrange their own survey, it should narrow the wriggle room for any discussions on a reduction in price to only those not mentioned in your survey.

Policies regarding post survey is always up to the broker and should be described to the buyer at the time of deposit.  I have never heard of a broker claim a pre sale survey removes or adds anything to the process.  Generally, the process goes, you negotiate a price, if the surveyor finds anything that would need doing to the hull then that can be negotiated,  anything to conform with BSS can be negotiated.  Some brokers have a policy of only allowing negotiations if the cost of repairs would take the price above the initial asking price.  Basically all brokers have policies to stop endless "oh I found this can you knock some more off" discussions. 

[booke23]

20 hours ago, Del ate it said:

I'm selling my boat. I have had a hull survey done, as it seems to be a desirable thing to show potential buyers. The survey terms say something along the lines of the report is for the clients use only. I have offered to allow potential viewers to read the survey when they view the boat in person, but not give them a copy.The surveyor accepted that it was likely out of his hands after issuing the survey.

What are forum members views on having your own survey done in order to sell a boat? 

 

As someone who both bought and also sold a boat recently, I'd say while it does no harm to have a survey done before selling, it's basically a waste of money. In my experience, any boats on the market that do have a survey have had it as a requirement of the previous owners insurance or have had it as a result of a recently fallen through sale.    

 

Buyers minded to have a survey know that they need to commission their own survey to guarantee non bias, so will pay little attention to an existing survey. 

 

 

7 hours ago, Del ate it said:

Whilst that is true, there is a huge difference, in my eyes, to showing the survey to potentially thousands of people on an interenet forum, 

 

Nah, on this forum only a few dozen will see it!
 

[cuthound]

19 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Apology accepted but not necessary in the first place. A valuation 'survey' is also known as a "Drive by survey". The 'surveyor' looks the address up on Google then drives past to check it really is a house and not an address in someone's imagination, and submits the valuation. KERCHING.

 

Or so I've heard, in the pub.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

These days the valuation surveyor saves the petrol and looks up the price on the internet using Zoopla or similar... 🤣

 

[GUMPY]

1 hour ago, WulfNut said:

I have never heard of a broker claim a pre sale survey removes or adds anything to the process. 

The broker that I sold Loddon through last year said the fact that it had a recent survey and had been blacked would make it easier/quicker to sell.

I could have put it on the market a month earlier without having it done but the brokers advice was to get it done before bringing it to market.

 

[WulfNut]

9 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

The broker that I sold Loddon through last year said the fact that it had a recent survey and had been blacked would make it easier/quicker to sell.

I could have put it on the market a month earlier without having it done but the brokers advice was to get it done before bringing it to market.

 

Sorry Gumpy the post was about price haggling after a buyers survey.   I think seller surveys and blacking are good because it enables you to get your boat fixed by yourself, or shop around for prices.  The boat should sell a lot easier with less problems, and it should be a lot less stressful. 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

a

Edited May 13 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Slim]

On 12/05/2024 at 18:03, WulfNut said:

Sorry Gumpy the post was about price haggling after a buyers survey.   I think seller surveys and blacking are good because it enables you to get your boat fixed by yourself, or shop around for prices.  The boat should sell a lot easier with less problems, and it should be a lot less stressful. 

I stress the term less stressful 😫 

W hen I had a hull survey undertaken prior to putting  my boat on the market it meant that I  KNEW that what I was going to sell was sound and that  I could  look the buyer in the face. Maybe I'm old fashioned but  for me that was important. 

Edited May 15 by Slim

[MtB]

40 minutes ago, Slim said:

W hen I had a hull survey undertaken prior to putting  my boat on the market it meant that I  KNEW that what I was going to sell was sound and that  I could  look the buyer in the face. Maybe I'm old fashioned but  for me that was important. 

 

Whereas when I sold a boat last year I offered it for sale "as seen, no survey" and priced accordingly. 

 

I immediately received an offer of the asking price "subject to survey" which I rejected. I looked the chap in the eye and explained I didn't know the condition of the hull but had no reason to think is was anything less than good. But I appreciated he wanted a survey so the price would go up by £10k if the survey was sound. 

 

He elected to buy it with no survey. Coincidentally I met him on the towpath six months later and he gleefully told me I was right about the hull condition, he'd had it docked and surveyed and it came back as immaculate, so he'd saved himself £10k! 

 

Then another six months passed and I saw the boat for sale on The Duck for £15k more than he bought it for....

 

And ANOTHER six months later, still for sale! 

 

[LadyG]

I do t understand the cynicism regarding a survey , if I sell the boat and want a premium, I'll have it out first for a clean up, and touch up of gunwales and hull, so I'd sell it as invgood condition, and if asked to prove it, I'd show them the survey. Do you imagine I would be li,ely to ring round  to find a dodgy surveyor, how would I  phrase it.?

?

 

[Del ate it]

On 16/05/2024 at 00:07, MtB said:

Then another six months passed and I saw the boat for sale on The Duck for £15k more than he bought it for....

 

And ANOTHER six months later, still for sale! 

Is it still being advertised for sale, or did it sell? 

[MtB]

53 minutes ago, Del ate it said:

Is it still being advertised for sale, or did it sell? 

 

Dunno if it sold but the advert on the duck seems to have been taken down.

 

 

[Mike Tee]

On a general note, if a pre sale survey was done, and then a buyer had his own pre purchase survey done because he didn't trust the first one, it would be interesting to compare the surveys (obviously if done by different surveyors).

[ditchcrawler]

On 12/05/2024 at 18:03, WulfNut said:

Sorry Gumpy the post was about price haggling after a buyers survey.   

Is it 

 

[hairywill]

Hello, my first post here. I've got the bug after a few holiday hires and am looking to buy a NB towards the bottom end of the price range. My aim is to take some sabbatical time off work for next summer and see how far I get on my own, with various family members joining me for some periods. I think I'm probably close to having bookmarked 100 boats over the last month but have not yet started looking in person. I will definitely want to get my own survey done, regardless of what has been done before.

 

In my price range I see boats that either:

1) look pretty trashed inside, I don't mind fixing that, though I'm mindful it will take/cost 4 times whatever is predicted.

2) have been London whitewashed, I think you call it, these are the ones that I trust least.

3) say they've had one owner for 30 years, they look a bit like a house bought from probate, tired and probably smell a bit of wee.

4) look very comfortable clean and well maintained though maybe not exactly the style or layout I would choose.

 

Before I spend my maybe £1000 on a survey or risk anything on a non-refundable deposit and want the best possible chance of success. The only things I care about massively are the hull, engine, gearbox. The hull will be underwater so I cannot see it and I'm not mechanically skilled enough to recognize an engine or gearbox which is beyond economical repair.

 

Any recent previous survey was done because either:

A) the seller wanted to mess with it and try and deceive me about the boats condition

they want to know the exact condition and value of what they are selling, act ethically and want things to proceed easily without big surprises from a buyer survey that suddenly expects half the boat to be replated

C) they were not intending on selling at the time they had it done

 

How do I as an uninformed idiot work out whether I am dealing with A, B or C? Largely for me it is about how much of a paper trail the boat has. What were the previous survey dates and BSS, can I see those, do you have receipts for maintenance work or fitting new equipment, are the places that did this still trading. Maybe I could even check with them that they did the work. Is there a log of owner maintenance? Was the last hull blacking inside 3 years (at my price range probably not much two pack). I expect requiring all of this will put the price up, so a good thing for the seller, but having worked in casinos for a few years in the past, I've learned not to gamble.

 

All these things CAN be faked, but if after purchase it turns out some of them were, then surely that is fraud and I might have some legal recourse. (tell me I'm being naïve)

Edited August 11 by hairywill

[Alan de Enfield]

47 minutes ago, hairywill said:

I'm being naïve

 

You are.

 

When buying a secondhand boat either directly from the owner or via a broker, they are under no legal obligation to tell you of any faults, having said that, anything they do tell you must be the truth, or it is misrepresentation.

 

The term 'Caveat Emptor' was written by the old Roman Navy commanders specifically to refer to boat buying.

 

(Caveat Emptor = Let the buyer beware)

 

Consumer Rights Act 2015 :

 

Did you buy it from a private seller?

When you buy from an individual (as opposed to a retailer), the Consumer Rights Act says that the goods you get must be as they were described to you by the seller.

There's no obligation on the seller to disclose any faults, but misrepresenting goods isn't allowed.

For example, something second-hand should not be described as new. If it is, the seller will be in breach of contract.

But putting things right can be tricky. If you can’t reach an agreement between yourselves you’ll have to try alternative dispute resolution or the small claims court.

[David Mack]

Legal recourse against a private seller would be expensive and of uncertain outcome. Not a road you would want to go down. And if you buy through a broker you are still buying from a private seller, and the same applies.

[MtB]

57 minutes ago, hairywill said:

The only things I care about massively are the hull, engine, gearbox.

 

Just for starters, I'd point out that any boat with a good hull and good engine and gearbox is not going to be at "the bottom end of the price range" you mentioned buying at. 

 

Using cars as an analogy, you want a cheap old banger but with low mileage and no rust. Cheap narrowboats by definition have well-worn mechanicals and several decades of corrosion. Without these, they are expensive! 

 

 

 

[LadyG]

Deleted a long post because the thread started as a post about a seller survey that exists and then drifts to someone who has found 100 boats for sale that meet his criteria! 

 

 

 

Edited August 12 by LadyG

[hairywill]

On 11/08/2024 at 20:48, Alan de Enfield said:

You are.

 

When buying a secondhand boat either directly from the owner or via a broker, they are under no legal obligation to tell you of any faults, having said that, anything they do tell you must be the truth, or it is misrepresentation.

 

The term 'Caveat Emptor' was written by the old Roman Navy commanders specifically to refer to boat buying.

Thank you, I didn't know Caveat Emptor came from boat buying. I'm well aware of the principle. I would in no way expect a seller to disclose anything negative. The point here is about the things that they do state, especially if there are ways to independently verify them. If someone was unable/unwilling to tell me about the history of the boat and show documentation then to me that is a red flag, just as much as a damp smell in a cupboard. It might be OK and with more experience it might be acceptable, but for me working with limited knowledge, I'll pass and move on to the next one.

 

On 11/08/2024 at 20:56, MtB said:

Just for starters, I'd point out that any boat with a good hull and good engine and gearbox is not going to be at "the bottom end of the price range" you mentioned buying at. 

 

Using cars as an analogy, you want a cheap old banger but with low mileage and no rust. Cheap narrowboats by definition have well-worn mechanicals and several decades of corrosion. Without these, they are expensive! 

The car analogy here is excellent, I've never used low mileage as a criteria when buying a car. I don't do that much mileage myself but I've owned at least two which have had over 200K miles on the clock by the time I've sold them. Is there a service history, does it show that each owner generally had the servicing done at the same garage. Look up the MOT history online, are there frequent failures and retests which might indicate the owner is doing the bare minimum to keep the car on the road. The car analogy fails when you start looking at boats that someone has prettified the inside to live in with shore power but has not looked after the hull and mechanicals.

 

12 hours ago, LadyG said:

Deleted a long post because the thread started as a post about a seller survey that exists and then drifts to someone who has found 100 boats for sale that meet his criteria! 

Sorry, it was a big post so I could have done more to make it clear. I've bookmarked loads of NBs that are under 40K, 50-60 foot, cruiser or semi-trad stern. Clearly I can't look at all of them physically so now I have to whittle down that list, the only information I have to filter them on is, the location, the photos and whatever lies are in the description. All other things being equal anything that says it has had a recentish survey is in front of those that have not. Personally I have not really worked how to compare the value of a recentish survey against something that has nice interior décor, or external paintwork or a photo of a cleanish engine bay (very clean engine bay seems more of a worry to me)

 

I think my reply is on topic, the OP specifically asked for responses from first time buyers in one of their posts.

On 12/05/2024 at 11:19, Del ate it said:

Is there anyone currently looking to buy for the first time that has an opinion they would like to share? 

[LadyG]

A few comments.

I dont think one can compare the value of a boat and throw in to the mix a survey produced by a seller, it's a red herring. Most boats won't have a survey available.

It doesn't matter what "value" is if it is outside your budget.

I found a boat that had the main requirement for me ie by a good builder and in good condition.

I examined the boat ,it was on the hard,  it was worth what he was asking, I bougnt it.

I knew very little about liveaboard boater requirements, I suppose I assumed all narrowboats boats were pretty much the same.

 

[Del ate it]

9 hours ago, hairywill said:

Thank you, I didn't know Caveat Emptor came from boat buying. I'm well aware of the principle. I would in no way expect a seller to disclose anything negative. The point here is about the things that they do state, especially if there are ways to independently verify them. If someone was unable/unwilling to tell me about the history of the boat and show documentation then to me that is a red flag, just as much as a damp smell in a cupboard. It might be OK and with more experience it might be acceptable, but for me working with limited knowledge, I'll pass and move on to the next one.

 

The car analogy here is excellent, I've never used low mileage as a criteria when buying a car. I don't do that much mileage myself but I've owned at least two which have had over 200K miles on the clock by the time I've sold them. Is there a service history, does it show that each owner generally had the servicing done at the same garage. Look up the MOT history online, are there frequent failures and retests which might indicate the owner is doing the bare minimum to keep the car on the road. The car analogy fails when you start looking at boats that someone has prettified the inside to live in with shore power but has not looked after the hull and mechanicals.

 

Sorry, it was a big post so I could have done more to make it clear. I've bookmarked loads of NBs that are under 40K, 50-60 foot, cruiser or semi-trad stern. Clearly I can't look at all of them physically so now I have to whittle down that list, the only information I have to filter them on is, the location, the photos and whatever lies are in the description. All other things being equal anything that says it has had a recentish survey is in front of those that have not. Personally I have not really worked how to compare the value of a recentish survey against something that has nice interior décor, or external paintwork or a photo of a cleanish engine bay (very clean engine bay seems more of a worry to me)

 

I think my reply is on topic, the OP specifically asked for responses from first time buyers in one of their posts.

 

Thank you for confirming that you are likely to use a sellers survey as a method of narrowing the field of boats to look at. It is refreshing to see input from potential new boaters on the subject rather than the usual experienced forum 'experts', who whilst they think they know everything about boats, have not bought or sold one recently.

 

Whether my own sellers survey was worthwhile, I shall never really know. The new owners did not commission their own survey, but read my one, and were able to secure insurance on the strength of it, so it probably had some value. 

 

Good luck with your purchase.