Pop riveting windows

[blackrose]

6 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

There are no nuts if you drill and tap the holes. I reckon it’s just as quick as riveting if you use a drill to drill, tap and screw. No worries about the rivets not seating because you aren’t holding it vertical to the hole or the gun slipping. Apologies for going on a bit but I suspect we both have similar skill levels and I find rivets to be not always as simple as they seem. I again urge you to have a practise on a piece of steel the same thickness as your boat. Remember if it is a lazy tong riveter you will be holding it horizontal and it’s a tad awkward especially when extended. I’m sure lots of people find it simple but do have a practice on some scrap (or someone else’s boat!) first

 

I'll be practising with a dry run (no sealant) on the first window with a few ordinary aluminium/steel rivets of the same size I've ordered for a couple of quid before I go ahead and order a load of the more expensive aluminium/stainless ones. I'll just drill out the practice ones. 

 

Trying to tap with a drill sounds like it might result in lots of snapped bits of metal which are then difficult to remove. Easier to drill out a rivet that hasn't seated properly I reckon. Also if a rivet doesn't seat properly because the gun wasn't held square to the cabin side/window then the same is true for a tap & screw as well. 

 

The other thing that makes me lean towards rivets is that from what I can see some of my holes are barely in the steel of the cabin side and some are just half a hole so you'd never be able to tap them, whereas a rivet will sit in them fine.

38 minutes ago, bizzard said:

As I mentioned earlier in this thread. For even pressure on the frame, pull up the rivets little by little by releasing the tool levers and removing to pull up another rivet a little, ''opposites'' until they snap off. Similar to tightening engine cylinder heads, bit by bit.

 

Thanks

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, blackrose said:

Trying to tap with a drill sounds like it might result in lots of snapped bits of metal which are then difficult to remove.

 

Not if you use the correct sized tapping drill, which is unlikely to be a standard whole and half mm one. Then, as long as you have enough clearance behind the steel use a taper tap.

[bizzard]

4 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I'll be practising with a dry run (no sealant) on the first window with a few ordinary aluminium/steel rivets of the same size I've ordered for a couple of quid before I go ahead and order a load of the more expensive aluminium/stainless ones. I'll just drill out the practice ones. 

 

Trying to tap with a drill sounds like it might result in lots of snapped bits of metal which are then difficult to remove. Easier to drill out a rivet that hasn't seated properly I reckon. Also if a rivet doesn't seat properly because the gun wasn't held square to the cabin side/window then the same is true for a tap & screw as well. 

 

The other thing that makes me lean towards rivets is that from what I can see some of my holes are barely in the steel of the cabin side and some are just half a hole so you'd never be able to tap them, whereas a rivet will sit in them fine.

 

Thanks

Don't tap threads with a drill unless your an absolute expert. Tap by hand tap.

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Don't tap threads with a drill unless your an absolute expert. Tap by hand tap.

Tapping 170 holes by hand is going to take a *long* time, even if you know what you're doing and don't break the tap by forgetting to reverse it. DAMHIK... 😞 

[truckcab79]

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

 

I'll be practising with a dry run (no sealant) on the first window with a few ordinary aluminium/steel rivets of the same size I've ordered for a couple of quid before I go ahead and order a load of the more expensive aluminium/stainless ones. I'll just drill out the practice ones. 

 

Trying to tap with a drill sounds like it might result in lots of snapped bits of metal which are then difficult to remove. Easier to drill out a rivet that hasn't seated properly I reckon. Also if a rivet doesn't seat properly because the gun wasn't held square to the cabin side/window then the same is true for a tap & screw as well. 

 

The other thing that makes me lean towards rivets is that from what I can see some of my holes are barely in the steel of the cabin side and some are just half a hole so you'd never be able to tap them, whereas a rivet will sit in them fine.

 

Thanks

Same as mine. Only taken two windows out so far and several where they’re a hairs width from the opening and a couple where they break though so half a hole at best.  
 

Go with the rivets.  They’ll be fine.  

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, bizzard said:

Don't tap threads with a drill unless your an absolute expert. Tap by hand tap.

 

The drill tap wasn't suggested by me, but I'm not going to tap any holes anyway, I'm either using rivets or nuts & bolts. Tapping the holes was my least favourite option.

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Not if you use the correct sized tapping drill, which is unlikely to be a standard whole and half mm one. Then, as long as you have enough clearance behind the steel use a taper tap.

 

No thanks.

[GUMPY]

One other thought, if the window screws are screwed through the steel into the battens what will hold the battens to the steel when you remove the screws🤔

[David Mack]

3 hours ago, Jon57 said:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/404001400121?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=u4iltr8ztt-&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=mxvKfNzKR5y&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

 

Don't think you could pull  up a series of rivets a bit at a time with that one. Looks to be all or nothing.

[blackrose]

3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Don't think you could pull  up a series of rivets a bit at a time with that one. Looks to be all or nothing.

 

Yes I think I'll stick to a hand riveter 

[Jon57]

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

Don't think you could pull  up a series of rivets a bit at a time with that one. Looks to be all or nothing.

Could if the drill as a torque setting possibly 

[Peugeot 106]

5 hours ago, bizzard said:

Not that many windows but hundreds of cylinder heads, same difference.

Must admit I’ve bolted a few cylinder heads on but never thought of using rivets…….Can you use them to hold the wheels on as well

 

It sounds like riveting wins the day though and that he’s got some good advice off you

3 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

The drill tap wasn't suggested by me, but I'm not going to tap any holes anyway, I'm either using rivets or nuts & bolts. Tapping the holes was my least favourite option.

 

No thanks.

I’m sure you’ll be fine with rivets and you’ve got good advice so no excuses!
 

just for info in case you ever want to drill and tap steel
 

Whilst no claim to be an expert riveter I tapped all the holes on my boat, chimneys, vents, windows etc using a drill. I’m no expert but never had a problem with any of them. Just go gently and reverse every now and then so as not to snap the tap. Use lubricant eg drill paste. I’ve snapped more small drill bits than taps. The Allen key button head screws look very smart

 

good luck

[blackrose]

Thanks All

[blackrose]

I've changed my mind! 😆

 

I bought what looked like a heavy duty manual pop rivet gun, drilled out one of the holes to 4mm and put in one pop rivet yesterday as a test  to check the size was correct in terms of what they call the grip length, etc. The plan was then to order the more expensive stainless mandrill rivets. 

 

But I'd forgotten how much pressure one actually needs to apply to get the mandrill to snap off! I probably needed longer handled rivetter but the one I had should have been up to the job. Also I didn't like the finish either - you get left with a snapped off steel mandrill which slightly protrudes from the centre of the rivet head and I imagined walking along the gunwale wearing shorts in summer and scratching myself. I know you can tap those jagged ends in with a punch but in the end I decided to order a load of A4 stainless dome headed screws and flange nuts. I'll use a small socket on the inside and an allen key on the outside to do them up - maybe I can rope in a neighbour to hold the allen key. 

[Tracy D'arth]

7 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I've changed my mind! 😆

 

I bought what looked like a heavy duty manual pop rivet gun, drilled out one of the holes to 4mm and put in one pop rivet yesterday as a test  to check the size was correct in terms of what they call the grip length, etc. The plan was then to order the more expensive stainless mandrill rivets. 

 

But I'd forgotten how much pressure one actually needs to apply to get the mandrill to snap off! I probably needed longer handled rivetter but the one I had should have been up to the job. Also I didn't like the finish either - you get left with a snapped off steel mandrill which slightly protrudes from the centre of the rivet head and I imagined walking along the gunwale wearing shorts in summer and scratching myself. I know you can tap those jagged ends in with a punch but in the end I decided to order a load of A4 stainless dome headed screws and flange nuts. I'll use a small socket on the inside and an allen key on the outside to do them up - maybe I can rope in a neighbour to hold the allen key. 

A wise decision. Rather than a helper on the outside could you use a nut on the inside?

[Eeyore]

Get a "T" handled hex key and a length of string as a wrist strap for the outside. Small hex keys are difficult to hold and often dropped.

You may occasionally encounter one of the more interesting things about working with stainless fasteners; their ability to lock up solid despite only being spun on by hand. Just have to shear or cut them off and try another one.

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

A wise decision. Rather than a helper on the outside could you use a nut on the inside?

 

I will use nuts on the inside, but it's just a bit tricky to hold the allen key on the outside and wind the socket on the inside at the same time.

 

57 minutes ago, Eeyore said:

Get a "T" handled hex key and a length of string as a wrist strap for the outside. Small hex keys are difficult to hold and often dropped.

You may occasionally encounter one of the more interesting things about working with stainless fasteners; their ability to lock up solid despite only being spun on by hand. Just have to shear or cut them off and try another one.

 

I've worked with lots of stainless nuts and bolts and never encountered that issue? Good idea about the string around my wrist if I end up having to do it on my own.

Edited April 9 by blackrose

[Tracy D'arth]

I still think that you could find a nut to go inside..........................................

[Eeyore]

55 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I still think that you could find a nut to go inside..........................................

Keep trying, he’ll get there eventually😎

[Peugeot 106]

9 hours ago, blackrose said:

I've changed my mind! 😆

 

I bought what looked like a heavy duty manual pop rivet gun, drilled out one of the holes to 4mm and put in one pop rivet yesterday as a test  to check the size was correct in terms of what they call the grip length, etc. The plan was then to order the more expensive stainless mandrill rivets. 

 

But I'd forgotten how much pressure one actually needs to apply to get the mandrill to snap off! I probably needed longer handled rivetter but the one I had should have been up to the job. Also I didn't like the finish either - you get left with a snapped off steel mandrill which slightly protrudes from the centre of the rivet head and I imagined walking along the gunwale wearing shorts in summer and scratching myself. I know you can tap those jagged ends in with a punch but in the end I decided to order a load of A4 stainless dome headed screws and flange nuts. I'll use a small socket on the inside and an allen key on the outside to do them up - maybe I can rope in a neighbour to hold the allen key. 

I’m not going to tell you again  that I find riveting is not as simple as it seems. It’s like welding. Even I can do it when it’s all layed flat.  
Why don’t you get a taper tap and drill the right size and give that a go. To reiterate you need the right sized hole, a taper tap with lubricant and take care and reverse the drill if it gets tight. Suggest you give it a try. If you are worried about getting the tap square hold a piece of wood against it marked square. You’ve tried a rivet why not try a tap

 

if it’s a disaster and you are really clumsy and break the tap just screw it out with pliers. If I it’s a total disaster and it’s miles off square drill the hole larger for clearance for your bolts. But you will need a helper and the trim on the inside won’t accommodate the nuts

 

i found the drill size for the tap was slightly larger than the rivet so you  could even try this on the hole you’ve tried for your rivet and all will not be lost. 
 
give it a go you’ve nothing to lose. Or get a decent rivet gun. A lot of them are useless apart from small aluminium rivets

 

 

 

[blackrose]

8 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

I’m not going to tell you again  that I find riveting is not as simple as it seems. It’s like welding. Even I can do it when it’s all layed flat.  
Why don’t you get a taper tap and drill the right size and give that a go. To reiterate you need the right sized hole, a taper tap with lubricant and take care and reverse the drill if it gets tight. Suggest you give it a try. If you are worried about getting the tap square hold a piece of wood against it marked square. You’ve tried a rivet why not try a tap

 

if it’s a disaster and you are really clumsy and break the tap just screw it out with pliers. If I it’s a total disaster and it’s miles off square drill the hole larger for clearance for your bolts. But you will need a helper and the trim on the inside won’t accommodate the nuts

 

i found the drill size for the tap was slightly larger than the rivet so you  could even try this on the hole you’ve tried for your rivet and all will not be lost. 
 
give it a go you’ve nothing to lose. Or get a decent rivet gun. A lot of them are useless apart from small aluminium rivets

 

 

 

.

You don't need to tell me about pop rivetting again. I just said I changed my mind and I'm not doing it!

 

I don't think you can be reading my posts - I'll repeat: half of the holes in the cabin sides aren't full holes so there would be nothing to tap. 

 

16 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I still think that you could find a nut to go inside..........................................

 

It's the way you tell 'em... 🫡

Edited April 10 by blackrose

[Tony Brooks]

If you have window trims that you can remove, then how about sticking some decent hardwood battens to the inside of the cabin side and screwing through the  existing screw holes into the hardwood.

[truckcab79]

9 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

I’m not going to tell you again

 

 

 

Worth bearing in mind the OP probably isn’t 5 years old 🙄, and that all you have is an opinion same as the rest of us. He’s already said that some of the holes aren’t full and that they overlap the edge so he can’t tap them.  
 

To the OP - Think I said way back that you’re the only person that can determine what method will work best for you. Sounds like you’ve sorted it anyway. 👍

Mine are going back in with rivets for much the same reasons as yours.  

[Quattrodave]

This is sounding much harder work than it should be... A number of solutions spring to mind...

1. As Tony said, drill straight through and use wood screws into battens behind.

2. As a previous plan, pop rivets, use blind stainless rivets, drill straight through to the correct size & hire or borrow a battery or air pop rivet gun.

3. As again previously mentioned, tap and machine screw. Drill straight through with the correct drill for chosen tap. Most battery drills have screw driver torque setting with is great for tapping, use Temaxol for drilling and tapping.

4. Rivnuts, again you'll need to drill straight through to correct size first,  squeeze in rivnuts wind in machine screws.

5. Nuts, again drill straight through but you'll likely need somone else in the inside to hold the nut and wind in machine screws....

Edited April 10 by Quattrodave

[Peugeot 106]

21 minutes ago, truckcab79 said:

Worth bearing in mind the OP probably isn’t 5 years old 🙄, and that all you have is an opinion same as the rest of us. He’s already said that some of the holes aren’t full and that they overlap the edge so he can’t tap them.  
 

To the OP - Think I said way back that you’re the only person that can determine what method will work best for you. Sounds like you’ve sorted it anyway. 👍

Mine are going back in with rivets for much the same reasons as yours.  

Thank you truckcab I agree it doesn’t read well it was written in haste but I don’t need you jumping in pointing out my hasty words. I’ve been a regular contributor on this forum for a number of years and hope that I am at least considered courteous and I try to be helpful with practical advice.   I would suggest that Blackrose has also been on the forum for many years and is more than capable of defending himself without your assistance. I was in any case going to apologise to Blackrose

[truckcab79]

To be honest everyone is just going round in circle saying the same thing now and adding very little.  
 

Rivets

Thread them (not possible). No room

Rivnuts (not possible). No room. 

Bolts

 

OP Let us know which you go for.  Pics always welcome.  👍

Edited April 10 by truckcab79