No knowledge and buying a project boat!

[system 4-50]

Just to add, all of us on this forum are keen for you to do this project if you want to do it after you have got all the info we can give!   We may sound discouraging at times but that is just a strong desire to make sure you have as much info as possible.  Projects when fully informed can be great fun!!!

[IanD]

15 minutes ago, MtB said:

"Vibration" isn't really the right word where proper slow revving vintage marine diesels are concerned. My Kelvins rev at about 300 rpm and there just isn't anything to vibrate. Its more a case of feeling the boat rock a bit from side to side on each firing stroke. The K1 would tip the boat slightly and send a ripple sideways away from the hull across the cut on each firing revolution. All very charming. 

 

 

Not so charming when the entire stern shakes up and down by several inches, like the Bolinder-engined boat I saw on the Trent -- I wish I'd videoed it, the movement was massive... 😉 

[Tracy D'arth]

The ad refers to aluminium paint, no good on the outside of a hull. And there is no mention of the condition of the base plate, its too close to the ground to inspect and it has probably never been cleaned and painted with anything in its life of 40 to 50 years!

Do think carefully and consider the advice you have received on here, projects like this are not for the inexperienced and usually end in tears with money spent and the boat sold off unfinished at a loss.

[nb Innisfree]

Beware of taking advice, well meaning but listen to it and then make up your mind, as an example I asked a few experienced builders and fitters opinions on ballasting but they all disagreed with each other, I decided to do the maths myself, the result seemed a bit odd and everyone said it was wrong, I trusted my maths and went ahead. On the day of the launch a local boat builder stated a rule of thumb with ballasting and much to my relief it agreed with my findings, hour later Innisfree was floating with a nearly prefect trim. 

[MtB]

9 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Not so charming when the entire stern shakes up and down by several inches, like the Bolinder-engined boat I saw on the Trent -- I wish I'd videoed it, the movement was massive... 😉 

 

 

Something badly wrong there, nothing anything like that happens on mine. All very civilized. 

 

 

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Something badly wrong there, nothing anything like that happens on mine. All very civilized. 

 

 

Looked like an unconverted working boat, presumably the hull with no steel cabin was more flexible than yours -- hit a resonance and things go horribly wrong, which I think is what was happening... 😞 

[MtB]

Just now, IanD said:

 

Looked like an unconverted working boat, presumably the hull with no steel cabin was more flexible than yours -- hit a resonance and things go horribly wrong, which I think is what was happening... 😞 

 

Possibly. A Bolinder is a two-stroke which fires on every revolution too, so excitation is very regular compared to a four stroke and twice as fast. 

[Slim]

When my wife died I decided to buy a new 55' hull and fit it out myself from scratch. Everything, including a mutual and bolt engine rebuild. I was still working. It took me well over 5 years to get to a stage w1here it could reasonably be used for day trips and several more before it was completed (almost). Technically I was a competent amateur with a background of off-shore sailing.  It's not a quick job and multiply any imagined costs by two, maybe 3.

[blackrose]

42 minutes ago, MtB said:

"Vibration" isn't really the right word where proper slow revving vintage marine diesels are concerned. My Kelvins rev at about 300 rpm and there just isn't anything to vibrate. Its more a case of feeling the boat rock a bit from side to side on each firing stroke. The K1 would tip the boat slightly and send a ripple sideways away from the hull across the cut on each firing revolution. All very charming. 

 

 

 

Vibration is the right word. What you've described is a low frequency, high amplitude vibration. 

23 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The ad refers to aluminium paint, no good on the outside of a hull. 

 

It looks like Jotamastic 87 or 90 epoxy to me which comes in a silver & red tint aluminium variant.

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Vibration is the right word. What you've described is a low frequency, high amplitude vibration. 

 

Cobblers.

 

 

[nb Innisfree]

3 minutes ago, Slim said:

When my wife died I decided to buy a new 55' hull and fit it out myself from scratch. Everything, including a mutual and bolt engine rebuild. I was still working. It took me well over 5 years to get to a stage w1here it could reasonably be used for day trips and several more before it was completed (almost). Technically I was a competent amateur with a background of off-shore sailing.  It's not a quick job and multiply any imagined costs by two, maybe 3.

Endless enthusiasm, determination and patience is required IMO

[MtB]

Just now, nb Innisfree said:

Endless enthusiasm, determination and patience is required IMO

 

And money.

 

The cost will exceed just buying a complete and working second hand similar boat, I'd predict.

 

 

 

 

 

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, Raggy said:

The hull is sound.

 

 

How do you know that? Have you already had the hull surveyed?

 

If so fine, but if not please don't go by a previous seller's survey. They are only good as a basis on which to decide whether it's worth commissioning your own survey. 

 

I've repeated this story a few times but about 20 years ago met a guy on a Dutch barge at Penton Hook marina on the Thames. He showed me an old survey given to him by the previous owner which had convinced him to buy the boat. About a year later when the boat came out the water for painting he took the opportunity to have it surveyed again himself as his insurance company insisted on a survey because the boat was well over 25 years old. Unfortunately the surveyor found dramatically thinner hull gauge measurements than those shown on the original seller's survey and he concluded that the copies the buyer had been given had been doctored. The seller of course had long gone and that mistake cost the new owner about £12K in replating. At today's prices that would probably be more like £20K+. Even if the seller could have been located I'm not sure there would have been any legal comeback as the copy of the old survey was not the owner's. Misrepresentation maybe? Anyway, the point is you don't know for sure that a hull is sound unless you commission your own survey.

 

Edit: Some experienced forum members have bought boats without a survey and they just take an educated guess, but that's all it is. Some may say for £9.5K you can take that chance, but it's not just the price of the boat, it's the cost of all the additional time and money you're going to put into it. At some point you're probably going to get it surveyed, so if you haven't done so my advice would be to get it surveyed before you buy, not after.

Edited March 8 by blackrose

[IanD]

49 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Possibly. A Bolinder is a two-stroke which fires on every revolution too, so excitation is very regular compared to a four stroke and twice as fast. 

It's a single cylinder (with a big and *very* heavy piston) which means the firing frequency is the same as a 2-cyl 4-stroke at the same rpm but with much poorer balance, and also runs at very low rpm at bonkover -- the whole stern was shaking up and down by several inches several times a second, I certainly wouldn't have liked to be the one standing on it... 😉 

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

It's a single cylinder (with a big and *very* heavy piston) which means the firing frequency is the same as a 2-cyl 4-stroke at the same rpm but with much poorer balance, and also runs at very low rpm at bonkover -- the whole stern was shaking up and down by several inches several times a second, I certainly wouldn't have liked to be the one standing on it... 😉 

 

I meant compared to my single cylinder 4 stroke Kelvin. There are twice as many firing strokes on the Bolly for a given RPM.

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Raggy said:

We have drawn up several plans of the boat as ideas and none of them include chopping into the hull...and/or hindering any of the structure.

 

But you may have to if you are going to fit the Lister engine.

 

If the link given is the correct one, then it looks like a typical cruiser stern and there is every chance the back bulkhead (back cabin wall) is at least partially steel. In just might be wood. I think the Saab was probably a one or two cylinder engine and even allowing for a longer old type gearbox plus a thicker/larger flywheel is likely to be shorter than the four cylinder Lister (an assumption on my part). You may be lucky in that there is enough length in the propeller shaft to allow you to can cut a bit off to give more space for the engine, but if not it would mean cutting a gap in the bulkhead to allow the engine to be fitted further forward. Depending upon the design, this just might make the accommodation more prone to flooding. However, one can't be sure unless it is inspected and measured.

 

Engine beds are part of the hull on steel narrowboats so if, as is probable, they have to be altered then you will have to chop into them. Swapping such engines is not likely to be a trivial job and if neither of you can weld then that is another expense.

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

Cobblers.

 

 

 

That's a very well structured argument. 🤣

[IanD]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

I meant compared to my single cylinder 4 stroke Kelvin. There are twice as many firing strokes on the Bolly for a given RPM.

 

 

True, but on a single-cylinder engine (with a heavy flywheel) a lot of the vibration coupled into the hull is shaking due to imperfect rotational imbalance (not just firing strokes) and this is the same for both at the same rpm -- when I watched the stern dance it looked pretty much constant every rotation, not bigger on firing strokes (bonk-pause-bonk-pause-pause-bonk...).

 

If the Bolly has a bigger heavier piston than your Kelvin (does it?) this would make the problem worse, also they run *very* slowly at tickover bonkover... 😉 

Edited March 8 by IanD

[Bee]

The points that have been raised on here quite rightly deal with the really important stuff, if you go ahead then you have to tackle the fit out. In most, but not all, peoples opinion the best form of insulation is spray foam, if this is an elderly boat there is a chance that it is fibreglass batts or even wool. That needs to come out and the boat sprayfoamed after any welding has been done. You have to budget for, and source, a lot of plumbing, a whole lot of wiring - for which you must follow boat safety rules - some gas- again, more rules, engine installation, this can be really quite expensive and then the heating, the water tanks, great big batteries, the list goes on and on. It is not impossible, of course not, but take time over this and go and see lots of boats, I reckon the best value is a second hand, middle aged slightly tired boat with a reasonable fit out. The big projects are for those whose creative drive makes them really want to do it.

[Machpoint005]

2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Cobblers.

 

 

 

If the boat rocks every time a cylinder fires, it is vibration. As Blackrose says, it's very low frequency, with oscillation about a point of equilibrium, so it is vibration. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 8 by Machpoint005

[Tony Brooks]

10 minutes ago, Bee said:

The big projects are for those whose creative drive makes them really want to do it.

 

And I would add sufficient knowledge to know what hey are likely to be getting into before among the purchase. That includes likely costs, the time required, regulations, and the practical ability. I very much fear that the OP probably has the latter, but very little idea about the other three.

[David Mack]

8 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

and the practical ability. I very much fear that the OP probably has the latter, but very little idea about the other three.

We are told OP's partner is a joiner and neither of them knows much about engines. We don't know how much either of them knows about 12V electrics (which are different from house wiring), plumbing, heating systems, LPG gas systems, BSS requirements, welding, painting,  etc. etc.  So at the moment a bit of an open question as to the overall level of their practical abilities.

[Tony Brooks]

20 minutes ago, David Mack said:

We are told OP's partner is a joiner and neither of them knows much about engines. We don't know how much either of them knows about 12V electrics (which are different from house wiring), plumbing, heating systems, LPG gas systems, BSS requirements, welding, painting,  etc. etc.  So at the moment a bit of an open question as to the overall level of their practical abilities.

 

I don't think so. While I am sure they have a good idea about the woodwork. I think the way they talked about the need to fit the Lister engine and then, despite my best efforts to point out that metalwork may well be involved, came back with saying they won't be cutting the hull suggests a lack in that area. They have yet to confirm the link given is or is not the boat in question, so that in itself shows they don't understand the sort of information the forum needs to give sensible answers.

 

They talked about living on the boat, that then raises questions about the regulations in respect of LPG systems in dwellings.

 

If they digest what has been said and comeback with more information and questions, then I might alter me view on their likely level of knowledge, but not so far.

Edited March 8 by Tony Brooks

[ditchcrawler]

5 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

But an engine doesn't "know" the source of its cooling so as long as a skin tank is large enough to cool the Saab why would it matter? Likewise couldn't indirect raw water cooling be used on the Lister?

I think the Sabb is out which IMO is a shame, As I understand it you cant just take an engine intended for a closed system and connect a couple of pipe that go through the hull to it. But of course we dont know and the OP probably doesn't know.

Edited March 8 by ditchcrawler
Spilling

[Crewcut]

Apart from everything else, if it is (and it looks that way) the boat on ebay, it's too small. Not many individuals could happily live on a boat that size let alone couples...