No knowledge and buying a project boat!

[Raggy]

My partner and I (have never been on a narrowboat) would like to rent our house and move aboard a narrowboat eventually.

 

He is a long serving joiner who could fit the boat out, once I tell him how I'd like it 😀.

 

We have seen a project boat for sale (on dry dock) that is not far from where we live. The cost of keeping it where it is is minimal, but there is a lot of work. I'm thinking a year to 18 months before we get it in the canal.

 

The old Saab engine has been removed. There is a Lister petter 4 cylinder engine that would need to be fitted.

 

We don't know enough about engines to be able to do this or know if it is possible to change one for the other. What would be the estimate cost to get a marine engineer to do this for us? 

 

Disclaimer: this is one of a few narrowboats we have been to see, but my OH got the tingle when he saw this one.

 

And I'm sure I'll be asking a lot more questions in the future.

 

Thank you in advance of any knowledge/help you can give.

[blackrose]

7 hours ago, Raggy said:

He is a long serving joiner who could fit the boat out, once I tell him how I'd like it 😀.

 

Mmm. But how would you know how you'd like the boat fitted out without any knowledge of boats or living on boats? I'm afraid there's a lot more to it than mere interior aesthetics or what's fashionable these days. I've seen a nice Tim Tyler hull ruined because the woman insisted on a deep Belfast style kitchen sink in the stern galley. Her partner duly obliged and fitted it even though he knew it was wrong to cut a hole in the hull for the waste pipe and skin fitting just an inch above the waterline. And all for the sake of her sense of being "on trend". Sorry if that sounds sexist. I don't actually know your gender, but sometimes people who know nothing about boats need to defer to those who are actually doing the work and have practical issues to solve.

 

7 hours ago, Raggy said:

 I'm thinking a year to 18 months before we get it in the canal.

 

Depending on what needs doing that may be very optimistic, especially if your husband is also working.

 

I don't mean to be negative, but I'm afraid you're going to get some fairly skeptical responses on here. It's good that you've come and asked questions before committing yourselves financially, but please expect some very realistic responses and try not to take offence.

Edited March 8 by blackrose

[Momac]

A survey is  essential before you buy it.

You need to be sure it is  structurally sound .

[Tony Brooks]

Re the engines. It is possible to change any engine for another in any boat BUT it could involve a lot of structural work and be very expensive unless you are a competent welder and have the kit. The Saab is likely to be bolted straight onto the engine beds, whereas the Lister is likely to use rubber mounts. The propeller shaft is unlikely to line up so cutting the engine beds about may well be needed - oh, and do you know how to align the engine and shaft?

 

The Saab is likely to be direct raw water cooled while the Lister is likely to be skin tank cooled and the boat may well no have a skin tank. More welding required to make a skin tank.

 

I used to be engineering foreman on a large hire fleet where we would fit out GRP shells, which is pretty much what you intend to do on a steel boat and that experience tells me that your timescale is not realistic unless working on it full-time. All the new things you will need to learn about (electrics, plumbing, heating) and so on probably makes 5 years and costing five times more than you think a more realistic proposal.

 

Do you know the regulations you will need to build to? If not, get hold of the Boat Safety Scheme hand book. If, by chance, the boat was built post 1998 then you have a whole raft of more stringed regulations you would be well advised to comply with (The Recreational Craft Regulations/Recreational Craft Directive).

 

I do not want to overstate what you are facing and fear this is likely to all go horribly wrong for you, but wish you luck anyway. Probably best to put the purchase price plus the  refit/rebuild cost together and look for a useable boat that you can get experience with.

[blackrose]

10 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

The Saab is likely to be bolted straight onto the engine beds, whereas the Lister is likely to use rubber mounts. 

 

I've never understood how an engine without flexible mounts doesn't just shear the mounting bolts. Where does all that vibration go?

[nb Innisfree]

I knew nothing about boats, We were recently just retired (2002) so I researched for a year, hardly able to sleep for excitement, I then single handed fitted out a new shell from scratch, full time living on site in a caravan age 55. Taking my time to try and avoid costly mistakes it took me almost 2 years to get it on the water, that was all diy with the exception of spray foam. It was an enjoyable but very steep learning curve, fuelled by intense enthusiasm and the support of my amazing wife. The result was 5 happy years as full time ccers. 

 

Stay realistic and don't underestimate the effort needed. 

 

[blackrose]

12 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

The Saab is likely to be direct raw water cooled while the Lister is likely to be skin tank cooled and the boat may well no have a skin tank. More welding required to make a skin tank.

 

But an engine doesn't "know" the source of its cooling so as long as a skin tank is large enough to cool the Saab why would it matter? Likewise couldn't indirect raw water cooling be used on the Lister?

[LadyG]

As others have indicated, without a lot of experience of narrowboating it's best to forget a project like that, buy something with all the basics, good basics, and then decide what you want to change.

Carpentry is only one of the skills required, and whatever you want, it may not be possible to tick all your boxes, it's about acceptable compromises

I have a fitter who has a floating workshop, a boat, a van, and a workshop. He needed all these resources just to fit out my galley!

A twenty year old boat will be  a twenty five year old boat in five years time, so the money that you put in to the upgrade may be recovered, but the hours that you put in to it will likely not.

Please hire a boat for a few weeks and see how you get on, it's not all roses and castles.

Edited March 8 by LadyG

[blackrose]

18 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 Probably best to put the purchase price plus the  refit/rebuild cost together and look for a useable boat that you can get experience with.

 

I tend to agree. Even if you bought a decent second hand boat you will still have a steep (but mostly enjoyable) learning curve. But add to that a few years of refitting a boat and it's enough to break many people. They just underestimate what's involved. 

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, blackrose said:

 

But an engine doesn't "know" the source of its cooling so as long as a skin tank is large enough to cool the Saab why would it matter? Likewise couldn't indirect raw water cooling be used on the Lister?

 

Yes you could skin tank cool the Saab, but the most likely situation would be that it is raw water cooled - that means no skin tank fitted to the hull. Yes, IF the Lister has a heat exchanger then it could be plumbed to the existing raw water inlet providing it is large enough to supply the volume of water needed, but that is a less reliable system for canal use. It all depend on exactly what the OP has and we don't know that. It the Lister is set up for skin tank cooling, they will need to but a suitable heat exchanger and fit it to the engine. It would not be wise to run the Lister unpressurised (assuming a modern four cylinder and not an old four cylinder air cooled unit) because of the possibility of furring up the internal hot spots and overheating caused by localised boiling when running hard on a river.

[blackrose]

5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Yes you could skin tank cool the Saab, but the most likely situation would be that it is raw water cooled - that means no skin tank fitted to the hull. Yes, IF the Lister has a heat exchanger then it could be plumbed to the existing raw water inlet providing it is large enough to supply the volume of water needed, but that is a less reliable system for canal use. It all depend on exactly what the OP has and we don't know that. It the Lister is set up for skin tank cooling, they will need to but a suitable heat exchanger and fit it to the engine. It would not be wise to run the Lister unpressurised (assuming a modern four cylinder and not an old four cylinder air cooled unit) because of the possibility of furring up the internal hot spots and overheating caused by localised boiling when running hard on a river.

 

Thanks for the detailed explanation. 👍

[David Mack]

This boat?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/315200806314

Ad suggests hull is OK (but then it would, wouldn't it). Could be OK but a lot of work.

Not just joinery and an engine refit either - there's plumbing, electrics, heating, gas etc. to do as well.

If you've never been on a narrow boat do you really want to take all this on?

 

And the previous engine was probably a Sabb (not a Saab) and to my mind a nicer engine, but presumably now history.

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

23 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I've never understood how an engine without flexible mounts doesn't just shear the mounting bolts. Where does all that vibration go?

 

Solid mounted engines tend to be low revving, heavy flywheel designs that do not vibrate to the same extent as modern units. Sabb used to balance coins on the top of the engine at the London boat shows. When solidly mounted, the hull, engine beds and engine become one solid unit so the whole boat absorbs the vibrations. The mounting points tend to be different in the vertical plane as well. flexible mounts part way up the block, solids rt the bottom of the crankcase.

 

Boats with properly installed solid mounted engines tend to be far smoother than those with flexible mounts, not least because the prop shaft is not being banged about in the shaft bearings.

 

There is every chance that the different mounting heights will prevent the shaft aligning without a lot of metal working.

Edited March 8 by Tony Brooks

[LadyG]

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

This boat?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/315200806314

Ad suggests hull is OK (but then it would, wouldn't it). Could be OK but a lot of work.

Not just joinery and an engine refit either - there's plumbing, electrics, heating, gas etc. to do as well.

If you've never been on a narrow boat do you really want to take all this on?

 

And the previous engine was probably a Sabb (not a Saab) and to my mind a nicer engine, but presumably now history.

 

 

Surely not ,  its only 38 foot,  hardly big enough for a two week summer holiday....

[Bee]

Its a big project. In your situation you need a lot of luck, the boat you are looking at might be a good quality boat that needs a refit that you would love or it might be a poorly designed thing that you would end up not liking, there is the same amount of work in both of these scenarios but no.2 would grind you down and you would lose money. Who built it?? And when?? Is the engine under the back deck, a so called 'cruiser stern' (which I dislike and would avoid) or has it got a short back deck with the engine inside the boat, so called 'Traditional'  (which has advantages and some disadvantages)  Then there is the hull, many boats of 30 years old or so have serious corrosion issues - many don't- but you can't tell just by looking and some (but not all) boats are built with little or no thought about corrosion from the inside as well as the outside. Travel around and look at boatyards - many are graveyards of peoples dreams and many of these dreams were 'projects'

[Arthur Marshall]

Any project is manageable given time and money, but when you calculate both, work out your estimate and triple it. That will factor in dealing with problems. Most of the work is fairly simple, but because you're working in a tight space and every single thing you do affects everything else it ends up frustratingly complex. You can't just finish one bit and move on to the next. And construction work is easy enough on land, but on a boat there are no levels and few right angles. Even if the boat's on land, you can't use a spirit level.

Project boats are usually projects because they haven't been looked after. So assume at least fifteen thousand for replating, if not now, fairly soon. With no engine, surely you'd be better off looking at something useable your partner could just tweak a bit for that money.

But the most crucial thing if all is to go and hire a boat for at least a two week cruise. You may love it , but you may not. It can be claustrophobic in that small space and if you like your privacy - well, there isn't any. I met a bloke singlehanding a new boat down a lock flight - they'd just bought the boat to live on, after one night the wife couldn't stand sleeping under the low roof and had taken their house off the maket and the bus home.

 

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Yes you could skin tank cool the Saab, but the most likely situation would be that it is raw water cooled - that means no skin tank fitted to the hull. Yes, IF the Lister has a heat exchanger then it could be plumbed to the existing raw water inlet providing it is large enough to supply the volume of water needed, but that is a less reliable system for canal use. It all depend on exactly what the OP has and we don't know that. It the Lister is set up for skin tank cooling, they will need to but a suitable heat exchanger and fit it to the engine. It would not be wise to run the Lister unpressurised (assuming a modern four cylinder and not an old four cylinder air cooled unit) because of the possibility of furring up the internal hot spots and overheating caused by localised boiling when running hard on a river.

 

To add to this: If the engine is a tank cooled one and the intention is to convert it to heat exchanger cooling, then it will a raw water pump to be fitted, these are no cheap, think between £200 and £300 as a rough guide. If the link David put up is the one then this may all be academic as it seems to have had a skin tank fitted. However, that would not be cheap, so one has to ask why, having gone to that expense, the owners have decided to sell on, rather than complete the refurb.

[MtB]

In addition to all the excellent points made in the posts above, step back and take in the overall view. Ask WHY the boat is out of the water and not still afloat. Could it be that it had sunk or was about to? Ask WHY the engine has been removed and vanished. Could it be that it was the only thing of value in the boat and it has been sold? Ask WHY there is "a Lister" available that you want to fit. Where did it come from and WHY was it removed (presumably) from another boat? Is it even marinised and suitable for a boat? Ask WHY no-one else has already proceeded with renovating and re-fitting this boat? Could it be interested parties keep doing the sums and deciding it will cost more in materials than the boat will be worth when finished, even if the labour is priced at zero, so they are better off just buying a finished and workng second-hand boat? 

 

 

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Solid mounted engines tend to be low revving, heavy flywheel designs that do not vibrate to the same extent as modern units. Sabb used to balance coins on the top of the engine at the London boat shows. When solidly mounted, the hull, engine beds and engine become one solid unit so the whole boat absorbs the vibrations. The mounting points tend to be different in the vertical plane as well. flexible mounts part way up the block, solids rt the bottom of the crankcase.

 

Boats with properly installed solid mounted engines tend to be far smoother than those with flexible mounts, not least because the prop shaft is not being banged about in the shaft bearings.

 

There is every chance that the different mounting heights will prevent the shaft aligning without a lot of metal working.

 

The idea is to get a large rigid set of bearers/bedplate directly bolted/welded to a massive and rigid part of the hull (often via wood to absorb a bit of high-frequency vibration and add some damping) so that the bearers/hull don't flex -- though as anyone who's been on a boat fitted with a Bolinder will testify another view is that the whole boat doesn't "absorb" the vibrations so much as spread them out throughout the whole hull, which can shake badly in some places at some rpm -- or indeed have the whole stern shake up and down by several inches at tickover (well, bonkover...) going by one such boat I was in a lock with... 😉 

 

It works with slow-speed engines especially if well-balanced -- IIRC the Sabb has an internal balancer shaft to cancel out the vertical secondary vibration -- because the out-of-balance forces which cause vibration go up with the square of rpm, and the resulting vibrations are quite low-frequency so not so offensive. With higher-speed modern engines the vibrations are higher-frequency and would tend to trigger rattles and buzzes all over the boat, so flexible feet are used instead of rigid mounts. But even so there's quite a bit of vibration gets past the feet into the hull which often causes noise and vibration inside the cabin which is worse when the boat is travelling (higher rpm than idle) -- and generators do the same, even with internal flexible mounting feet.

 

The fix for this is the same one that is used for generators in noise-critical places like hospitals, mount the generator on a massive inertia frame which itself sits on flexible feet -- the vibration then stops at the inertia frame instead of being transmitted into the building/boat. This works best with soft feet but is more difficult with engines than generators because of the varying rpm, increased engine movement (Aquadrive or similar essential) and the need to avoid creating new and bad resonances between the engine and inertia frame at some rpm -- and also the inertia frame needs to be at least as heavy as the engine/gearbox which means several hundred kgs.

 

We did this with my generator, it was a PITA (and costly!) to both build and fit in underneath -- the frame weighs about 200kg (almost 2 inches of steel plate!) and is mounted on soft Aquadrive feet, and the extra weight caused some ballasting issues -- but the reduction in vibration and noise inside the boat when it's running is very obvious compared to normal generator mounting.

 

None of which matters to most boaters who are not installing an onboard generator, but those who are could consider doing this if they value peace and quiet... 😉 

 

 

Edited March 8 by IanD

[Machpoint005]

Point of order.

 

It's not a Saab engine. Saab is an aircraft company, and was a car manufacturer.

 

The marine engine builder is Sabb.

 

 

[Raggy]

Okay, thank you all for all your insights! You all have been of much help.

 

No offence has been taken from any comment. I'm all for learning. It is one of the reasons I posted. I didn't want to make a mistake. And something was worrying me about the engine, so needed more knowledgeable expertise.

 

I'm sorry, I'm at work and keep getting distracted before I can reply back and more people have commented. It blew up a lot more than I had expected. 

 

Thank you again for your feedback and I will sit down tonight and have a proper look through the comments.

Edited March 8 by Raggy
More posts added given extra info

[MtB]

"Vibration" isn't really the right word where proper slow revving vintage marine diesels are concerned. My Kelvins rev at about 300 rpm and there just isn't anything to vibrate. Its more a case of feeling the boat rock a bit from side to side on each firing stroke. The K1 would tip the boat slightly and send a ripple sideways away from the hull across the cut on each firing revolution. All very charming. 

 

 

[Machpoint005]

Saab is Swedish.

Sabb is Norwegian.

 

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

4 minutes ago, Raggy said:

As its on dry dock time scale is not an issue, it will take as long as it takes. We are in no rush and would like to make it the best we can.

How much is the dry dock costing? I'm assuming you mean hard standing, rather than dry dock. Over the years this can add considerably to the overall cost, especially if enthusiasm wanes and the boat is unvisited for months.

 

[jonathanA]

i can only echo what others have said, if you have never been on a narrowboat, then hire one for a holiday.  If your plan is to live on one eventually, try living in your kitchen for a week that will be a good equivalent experience.  its very similar to caravanning or motorhomes.  I often refer to my boat as the floating caravan (when i'm pee'd off with it 🙂 ) . there are many similarities in terms of fittings and use of space. 

 

its tricky because 9 grand looks cheap and you are probably thinking that your partner can do all the work so it will be cheap.... it won't  - you have to factor in the 'marine' premium, which is essentially add a nought to the cost any non marine equivalent.   and you just cant avoid having to buy things like water pumps ,  battery chargers etc that have to be right for the job... 

 

don't be put off, but do go in with your eyes wide open and if you realistically budget all the costs you may find its better to find a good useable secondhand boat.  for instance 2 years of rent at the hard standing is nearly 2 grand.....  add in £2-300 for the 'cheap crane in', travel to/from every weekend and the cost soon adds up...