electric circuit 240v

[matty40s]

My Heart combi has now entered its 33rd year of service on this vessel. 

My view of this is that the boat was set up how the owner wanted it, and certainly wouldnt have been to use an electrical fire.

The boat was probably left on a landline occasionally, or over winter, where the batteries were charged, and then used normally, with maybe a few less thirsty 240v appliances running at some points.

The genny input would have been included for maybe washing machine use whilst cruising.

The Heart needs a minimum of over 3.5kw to make the battery charger function operate, otherwise it kicks in, kicks out, kicks in, kicks out all day long. (From the mouth of Gibbo)

 

You are expecting an old and perfectly adequate system to operate how you want it to, not how the person who paid for it wanted. 

So, yes, if you want to run an electrical fire, you are going to have to spend money to wire the system sufficiently adequate for your needs.

 

(A 2kw electrical fire is possibly the least efficient way of heating a boat.... unless you want a 3kw one)

 

[TheBiscuits]

7 hours ago, IanD said:

There will always be some things on a boat that you don't have backup for if they go wrong -- engine and gearbox on a diesel boat, for example

 

@Alan de Enfield has a spare engine on both boats.   And even a spare hull on one!

[Alan de Enfield]

37 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

@Alan de Enfield has a spare engine on both boats.   And even a spare hull on one!

 

I still have a complete spare engine and gearbox for my last, long ago sold, Narrowboat. (LPWS4 and PRM150)

I was working on the principle that having a complete identical engine and a Son at home meant I could get any spare delivered within a few hours anywhere on the system - (never have to wait for a left handed thuns-widget to be imported from Nepal), repaired and on the way the same day, thats the way to go.

[blackrose]

16 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Combi boxes are convenient, but have more parts to fail, any one of which...

 

...can cause the entire combi to fail leaving the boat with no inverter, no battery charger and sometimes not even any direct shore power.

 

Which is why I prefer a separate battery charger and inverter. If one goes down at least you've still got the others.

Edited November 1, 2023 by blackrose

[nicknorman]

…and so the mantra is repeated.

[GUMPY]

Having waded through much waffle about various subjects I went back to the OP.

As I read it he has 230v going to the Heart and 230v coming out but the batteries are going flat.

This to me implies that the charging circuit has stopped working.

This in a Heart interfaces is usually caused by the demise of a single resistor on the board just behind the trips on the front panel.

It happened to mine about 25 years ago and Gibbo pointed me in the right direction to fix it. It's very obvious which resistor it is as it will be burnt. However there lies the problem as I can't remember the value of the replacement. You may find someone like  @matty40swith one who can look at theirs and tell you the value but you may not.

I was surprised at just how easy a fix it was.

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by GUMPY

[David Mack]

12 hours ago, matty40s said:

(A 2kw electrical fire is possibly the least efficient way of heating a boat.... unless you want a 3kw one)

Actually an electric fire (of any rating) is 100% efficient at turning electricity into heat. But it may not very very effective at heating the space around it.

[IanD]

11 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I still have a complete spare engine and gearbox for my last, long ago sold, Narrowboat. (LPWS4 and PRM150)

I was working on the principle that having a complete identical engine and a Son at home meant I could get any spare delivered within a few hours anywhere on the system - (never have to wait for a left handed thuns-widget to be imported from Nepal), repaired and on the way the same day, thats the way to go.

I have a son and also a daughter as a spare in case he goes wrong -- does that count? 😉

[matty40s]

3 hours ago, GUMPY said:

Having waded through much waffle about various subjects I went back to the OP.

As I read it he has 230v going to the Heart and 230v coming out but the batteries are going flat.

This to me implies that the charging circuit has stopped working.

This in a Heart interfaces is usually caused by the demise of a single resistor on the board just behind the trips on the front panel.

It happened to mine about 25 years ago and Gibbo pointed me in the right direction to fix it. It's very obvious which resistor it is as it will be burnt. However there lies the problem as I can't remember the value of the replacement. You may find someone like  @matty40swith one who can look at theirs and tell you the value but you may not.

I was surprised at just how easy a fix it was.

 

I do have a spare Heart donated by Jelunga(nb Lilly Maud) many years ago, the charging side had gone down on that one. 

The simple fact is that the Heart will not be able to charge the batteries fast enough to keep up with the electrical fire.

[nicknorman]

5 minutes ago, matty40s said:

I do have a spare Heart donated by Jelunga(nb Lilly Maud) many years ago, the charging side had gone down on that one. 

The simple fact is that the Heart will not be able to charge the batteries fast enough to keep up with the electrical fire.

But surely the heart just passes through shore power, same as other Combis? Surely it doesn’t convert to dc and then back to ac? Although if it did that, the OP’s problem would be explained!

[GUMPY]

3 hours ago, nicknorman said:

But surely the heart just passes through shore power, same as other Combis? Surely it doesn’t convert to dc and then back to ac? Although if it did that, the OP’s problem would be explained!

In the back of my mind there is something odd about the way the Heart operates but can't remember what. 

 

 

4 hours ago, matty40s said:

I do have a spare Heart donated by Jelunga(nb Lilly Maud) many years ago, the charging side had gone down on that one. 

The simple fact is that the Heart will not be able to charge the batteries fast enough to keep up with the electrical fire.

If you look at the broken one you should be able to see the resistor (it was very obvious on mine) and get the value from your working one.

As soon as I mentioned not charging Gibbo said what the fault was, it was a common failure.

 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by GUMPY
Format

[Richard Houlgate]

The Heart was only set to take 7.5 amps out of a possible 16 from the shore bollard.

So I changed the setting to 16 amps and now the thing has stopped working.

 

I'm going to buy a new one, what should I buy?

 

It would need to handle up to 3kw shore power continuously, but only enough when  not on shore power to run the microwave or vacuum cleaner in short bursts. The are 4 domestic batteries and 1 starter, 2 alternators, 20 & 70 amp.

 

Your advice would be appreciated.

[magnetman]

Victron is the go-to product for this but they do know how to empty a wallet !

[GUMPY]

Victron 12/1600/70 combi

Passes the full 15amps when on shore power and will allow you to run most stuff singly when away.

 

https://nomadicleisure.co.uk/product/victron-multiplus-compact-12-1600-70-inverter-charger-cmp121620000/

 

It has a very low standby current so doesn't draw much when away from shore power.

 

A Victron  12/2000/80 gives you slightly more power when away and the Victron  12/3000/120 will give you almost 16amps but watch your battery 

 

[nicknorman]

I’d go for the 2000va version. Vacuum cleaners can be pretty savage on their startup current.

[ditchcrawler]

28 minutes ago, Richard Houlgate said:

The Heart was only set to take 7.5 amps out of a possible 16 from the shore bollard.

So I changed the setting to 16 amps and now the thing has stopped working.

 

I'm going to buy a new one, what should I buy?

 

It would need to handle up to 3kw shore power continuously, but only enough when  not on shore power to run the microwave or vacuum cleaner in short bursts. The are 4 domestic batteries and 1 starter, 2 alternators, 20 & 70 amp.

 

Your advice would be appreciated.

Microwave, I would suggest you go for a minimum or 2Kw true sine inverter 

[Richard Houlgate]

I've had two suggestions made

Victron Easy plus compact 12 1600 70

Sterling Pro Combi 2500w.

presumably the Victron would be underpowered.

 

Is the Sterling any good?

 

I'm confused by Victron, there is the EasyPlus Compact and the Multiplus, which is best to go for?

[nicknorman]

2 hours ago, Richard Houlgate said:

I've had two suggestions made

Victron Easy plus compact 12 1600 70

Sterling Pro Combi 2500w.

presumably the Victron would be underpowered.

 

Is the Sterling any good?

 

I'm confused by Victron, there is the EasyPlus Compact and the Multiplus, which is best to go for?

Personally I would avoid Sterling, rather old fashioned and some of their products use a lot of power just being on and doing nothing.

 

The EasyPlus compact is a new one on me, but it looks like it has a consumer unit built in. And it is consequently more expensive. Presuming you already have a consumer unit on the boat then the extra cost doesn’t seem worth it. I would go for the Multiplus 2000va

Edited December 12, 2023 by nicknorman

[magnetman]

Victron will be better than Sterling. 

 

 

[Richard Houlgate]

Comparing the power usage on standby of the two combis it seems that the Victron takes 10 watts while the Sterling takes 1.2 amps at 12v = 14.4 watts, quite a bit more but not much in the grand scheme of things.

It would seem that the Victron Multiplus 12/2000/80 might be suitable https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-MultiPlus-500VA-2000VA-EN.pdf.It would be good to have some form of remote monitoring and they do Cerbo GX https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-Cerbo-GX-GX-Touch-EN.pdf which would be great as I could monitor the boat inverter from home. But it all seems expensive and complicated. I've also looked at the Sterling Pro Combi S https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0649/1945/files/combi.pdf?18179976823646981715 but am not sure if this comes with remote monitoring. 

 

[nicknorman]

Victron are top of the tree in terms of interconnect-ability (system integration) and remote monitoring. Most of their stuff is “open source” which gives them a lot of brownie points in my eyes.

 

If you are technicall minded you can run their Venus OS on  a raspberry pi and get something like the Cerbo on the cheap. https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2017/09/06/raspberry-pi-running-victrons-venus-firmware/
 

[Richard Houlgate]

While I'm sure that I could master it eventually that's not something I've done before. I spend most of my time with the 100 year old technology of vintage cars and use modern stuff as and when I need it.

[Richard Houlgate]

One potential installer is keen to use the Victron Easy Plus Compact 12/1600/70, I suspect because he understands it as he has one on his boat.

The Technical data gives

 

So I suppose that when on shore power it would transmit 3000w.

When on battery it would give a continuous 1600w, but peak would go up to 3000w (depending on the batteries). Or am I wrong?

[Jen-in-Wellies]

28 minutes ago, Richard Houlgate said:

One potential installer is keen to use the Victron Easy Plus Compact 12/1600/70, I suspect because he understands it as he has one on his boat.

The Technical data gives

 

So I suppose that when on shore power it would transmit 3000w.

When on battery it would give a continuous 1600w, but peak would go up to 3000w (depending on the batteries). Or am I wrong?

I have a very early one of these. On shore power the complete 3000W from the shore bollard is passed straight through the unit when required. On inverter, it is 1600VA, not 1600W. If you are running a reactive load, something motorised, like a mains vacuum cleaner, or drill, then it is 1300W. VA is not the same as W. If the mains input current is restricted, then it can call on the batteries to boost the power a bit up to 3000W.

These days, I find 1600VA more than adequate for my needs. More than enough to start a mains fridge compressor. I don't have the big mains electric motors for vacuum cleaners, or drills now that I occasionally used when first installed, having gone to rechargeable battery versions for these. When away from shore power, I'm unlikely to use things like an angle grinder, but if I did, it could cope. The electric kettle and toaster are shore power conveniences only and are plugged in to a shore line only set of sockets from the Easyplus. Gas for kettle and toasting when away. I use a twin tub washing machine, rather than an automatic, so only need 300W of mains to spin the motors. Hot water comes from back boiler, or solar thermal, depending on the time of year. An automatic washing machine will take around 1kW to heat the water, so you need to take care what else mains is on during that part of the cycle.

[robtheplod]

2 hours ago, Richard Houlgate said:

Comparing the power usage on standby of the two combis it seems that the Victron takes 10 watts while the Sterling takes 1.2 amps at 12v = 14.4 watts, quite a bit more but not much in the grand scheme of things.

It would seem that the Victron Multiplus 12/2000/80 might be suitable https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-MultiPlus-500VA-2000VA-EN.pdf.It would be good to have some form of remote monitoring and they do Cerbo GX https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-Cerbo-GX-GX-Touch-EN.pdf which would be great as I could monitor the boat inverter from home. But it all seems expensive and complicated. I've also looked at the Sterling Pro Combi S https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0649/1945/files/combi.pdf?18179976823646981715 but am not sure if this comes with remote monitoring. 

 

The Cerbo GX is a great bit of kit and surprisingly simple! It connects to your onboard network/WiFi and allows remote management. All the other Victron kit you may have now or in the future connects to it (cable or bluetooth) to add to your management and monitoring (solar/battery monitors etc etc)... if the budget is ok then its certainly worth it and can grow with your requirements. There are cheaper ways to do all this but Victron kit just works and is very easy to use/setup. Victron provide the free web access to all your devices - no subscriptions etc.