Buying a Narrowboat

[Bettyblue]

Thankyou for allowing me to join this forum. I intend to buy my first NB as a liveaboard next  March. Can I please ask whether the age of the NB is a factor? It seems that unlike buying a used car when you would not want a car that is decades old, some NB advertised go back to the 1970,s ! Is this an issue ? Or is age not a barrier with NB? Do they age like fine wines ?😀😀

[pete.i]

Unfortunately not. It depends on how well they have been looked after. With the best will in the world steel and water do not play well together. Also the effects of electricity on steel hulls has to be factored in. You need to do a lot of research and also realise that most of the things that you need to know about buying a narrowboat will be down to you. You will have to get a survey but that is absolutely no guarantee that the boat you choose is good. Also you must realise that sellers will not point out the bad bits no matter who they are. Good luck, I have bought 3 boats before I stopped using the canals and they were all good. My first one was well over 30 years old. Buyer beware and um caveat empress or what it's called which basically means the same thing.

Edited October 26, 2023 by pete.i

[Higgs]

Caveat emptor.

 

 

[Puffling]

Welcome to the forum!

 

The interior fitting won't age nearly as much as your engine and hull. Those last two are the vital components of any narrowboat. However nicely fitted out your prospective purchase seems, it is what's beneath the lining which tells the genuine age - a little bit like humans, I suppose.

 

I see you are enquiring about mooring in Cambridgeshire in your other posts. I'd say be cautious of boats advertised for sale from private individuals around London. It's quite common to take a tired old boat (old or even one that suffered a fire or sinking) and dress up the interior with fancy painted surfaces and carpets to make it appear modern. Such a boat might have been well maintained throughout its long life. However, you don't want to find a problem with a collapsed engine or perforated hull once you have handed over the cash.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Puffling

[Bettyblue]

Thankyou so much , like people don’t judge a book by it’s cover, look beneath the surface  to find the true picture. 
In terms of moorings I am open minded now, I am happy to consider mooring anywhere aslong as it’s peaceful, within 30 minutes drive of a town or City where I can work, and not too expensive.

 

Is it always safer to buy from a brokerage than a private individual?

[blackrose]

17 minutes ago, Bettyblue said:

 

Is it always safer to buy from a brokerage than a private individual?

 

No not really. 

[Tony Brooks]

11 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

No not really. 

 

Agreed, there are some horror stories in circulation, including one broker who allegedly buys boats in the course of business and the passes them as being owned by an individual, thereby removing any protection the purchaser has from The Sale of Goods Acts.

 

Basically brokers live by commission from sales so don't expect them to say or do anything that my jeopardise a sale. Unless asked a direct and specific question they are unlikely to offer the information, expect an evasive or non-committal answer. The same goes for private sellers.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Tony Brooks

[Bettyblue]

Ok thanks Oh I thought it would be, doesn’t a broker do more checks ?

[David Mack]

5 minutes ago, Bettyblue said:

Ok thanks Oh I thought it would be, doesn’t a broker do more checks ?

There are no more checks a broker can do than a careful buyer. Plenty of advice on the forum on what to look out for when buying.

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, Bettyblue said:

Ok thanks Oh I thought it would be, doesn’t a broker do more checks ?

 

Like what?

 

There is no central record of boat ownership for the vast majority of inland craft. It is custom and practice for you (the buyer) to commission a survey if you want one. NEVER ever rely on a survey provided by the vendor or broker. Ask yourself in whose interest was the surveyor working.

 

The best you can hope for is a file of receipts for work done, licences, and insurance. Hopefully a log may be available.  Ensure that you see the vendor's photo ID with their address on it and note the address. Then ensure you get a signed receipt for your money.

[ditchcrawler]

43 minutes ago, Bettyblue said:

Ok thanks Oh I thought it would be, doesn’t a broker do more checks ?

They don't survey the boats they sell, more like estate agents than second hand car salesmen, they advertise and show the photograph the boat to get the best sales, they don't polish and do an engine service

[PeterF]

A broker usually sends out a form for the owner to fill in with all details about the boat. The broker does not necessarily confirm these. The terms and conditions state the boat is sold as seen and the broker is not responsible / liable for the information provided. They are not selling the boat in the strict legal sense, the seller is selling the boat, the broker is merely facilitating the sale by acting for the owner. If the owner misrepresents the boat then this may not come to light until the survey or after purchase. Some brokers may do some checks, some may not and may not care. If the owner information and the boat appearance are at odds the more reputable brokers may not take the sale on or have the owner correct the information, others may not care.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, Bettyblue said:

Ok thanks Oh I thought it would be, doesn’t a broker do more checks ?

 

Inland waterways boats are not 'registered' there is no 'log book', no proof of ownership, and usually very little in the way of any paperwork. There is nothing that a broker can do except take your money and say he has "found nothing"

 

Also, remember that a Broker is acting on behalf of the seller, not the buyer, he will not do anything, or say anything. that could jeopdise the sale.

 

You need to use a good surveyor (few and far apart) who can advise you on the condition of the boat, but at the end of the day their 'small print' on the survey will say "if you have a problem, don't come back to us, we may have missed something, it is not our responsibility, tough !"

 

Or words to that effect.

 

 

[IanD]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Inland waterways boats are not 'registered' there is no 'log book', no proof of ownership, and usually very little in the way of any paperwork. There is nothing that a broker can do except take your money and say he has "found nothing"

 

Also, remember that a Broker is acting on behalf of the seller, not the buyer, he will not do anything, or say anything. that could jeopdise the sale.

 

You need to use a good surveyor (few and far apart) who can advise you on the condition of the boat, but at the end of the day their 'small print' on the survey will say "if you have a problem, don't come back to us, we may have missed something, it is not our responsibility, tough !"

 

Or words to that effect.

 

 

And exactly the same applies to houses, as we found after moving in... 😞

[Mad Harold]

There are a few good old boats around,but it is difficult to know which is good and which is bad.A survey definately helps to say which is which, but for various reasons can't be taken as gospel.Best to buy the youngest boat in your budget and commission your own survey.There are many parts of a boat that are hidden or inaccesible without removing  trim or flooring and any horrors may come to light some time after you have bought the boat.

It's a bit like taking up with a new woman, in that you don't know what you've really got untill you live with her for a year.

I am giving a rather pessimistic view, but I have been 'done' a couple of times. (Both boats and women)  😢

[Crewcut]

Buying privately at least you get to meet and speak with the owner so you can get an idea about them & how they treat their boat but unless you're knowledgeable yourself it won't mean a great deal. So do as much research as you can, go see some boats to start getting an idea of what you can get for your budget, if possible take someone with you who is knowledgeable and able to give you an unbiased opinion on any boat that you're seriously considering making an offer on. Most boats are optimistically priced, your initial offer might be 10%, even 20% below the asking price and if you want subject to survey. There are some bonkers asking prices, especially in/around that London. Then you have to arrange the lift out (if the boat's still afloat) and the survey. Be present for the survey if you have one. I've never had one but then I've never bought an old steel boat, ask for recommendations on here if you want a surveyor, pay no heed to a survey commissioned by the seller or take a recommendation for a surveyor from a broker. Above all be very careful if you're going to spend a big chunk of money on something you don't know much about, a lot of people get stung. Good luck with it all though, take your time, do lots of research, listen to and act upon advice from those that you can trust and you'll be fine...👍

[Tony Brooks]

7 minutes ago, Crewcut said:

Buying privately at least you get to meet and speak with the owner so you can get an idea about them & how they treat their boat but unless you're knowledgeable yourself it won't mean a great deal. So do as much research as you can, go see some boats to start getting an idea of what you can get for your budget, if possible take someone with you who is knowledgeable and able to give you an unbiased opinion on any boat that you're seriously considering making an offer on. Most boats are optimistically priced, your initial offer might be 10%, even 20% below the asking price and if you want subject to survey. There are some bonkers asking prices, especially in/around that London. Then you have to arrange the lift out (if the boat's still afloat) and the survey. Be present for the survey if you have one. I've never had one but then I've never bought an old steel boat, ask for recommendations on here if you want a surveyor, pay no heed to a survey commissioned by the seller or take a recommendation for a surveyor from a broker. Above all be very careful if you're going to spend a big chunk of money on something you don't know much about, a lot of people get stung. Good luck with it all though, take your time, do lots of research, listen to and act upon advice from those that you can trust and you'll be fine...👍

 

I would add that you can always post the link to the add of a boat you like on here and ask for opinions.

[Bettyblue]

That is so kind of you to take the time to write what you have Tony, I do appreciate it.

I will be spending what will be my retirement savings on the NB so it is crucial that I get it right. I have already started researching and I will keep on doing so.

I was thinking of an ex hire NB because that way I could get two bedrooms which is what I need for my daughter and myself . But I will make sure I view lots of boats when I get back to the UK in March .

Any views on ex hire NBs ?

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Bettyblue said:

That is so kind of you to take the time to write what you have Tony, I do appreciate it.

I will be spending what will be my retirement savings on the NB so it is crucial that I get it right. I have already started researching and I will keep on doing so.

I was thinking of an ex hire NB because that way I could get two bedrooms which is what I need for my daughter and myself . But I will make sure I view lots of boats when I get back to the UK in March .

Any views on ex hire NBs ?

 

I had one and no problems.

Well maintained and serviced and all the things that need checking or changing are generally placed so they are easily accesible. May have high hours on the engine (ours had 10,000+) but the maintenance is the key.

 

If buying an ex-hire boat that has already had a private buyer (or two) then all bets are off as regards to care and maintenance.

 

You can but direct from the hire companies, at the 'end of the season' they will be selling off their older boats.

 

Edit to add : 

Black Prince is a hire company that regularly sell off their boats - I think they also give you a respray and remove all indications that it has been a hire boat. Not the cheapest but they are generally 'not too old' and are well looked after.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony Brooks]

59 minutes ago, Bettyblue said:

That is so kind of you to take the time to write what you have Tony, I do appreciate it.

I will be spending what will be my retirement savings on the NB so it is crucial that I get it right. I have already started researching and I will keep on doing so.

I was thinking of an ex hire NB because that way I could get two bedrooms which is what I need for my daughter and myself . But I will make sure I view lots of boats when I get back to the UK in March .

Any views on ex hire NBs ?

 

Yes, I bought one and used it for over 20 years without any major expenses or problems. However, I have many years of experience, so that makes a difference when inspecting a potential purchase.

 

It all depends upon the fleet and how they are maintained. There are some fleets I would not touch with a barge pole, usually smaller ones who buy second-hand or keep their boats for many, many years. The major players are the best bet, and Black Prince seem to get good reports.

 

In general, the boats in a reputable hire fleet will be well maintained because if they break down they cost the company loss of hire and probably compensation to the unfortunate hirers. They are likely to be constructed in such a way maintenance and access to parts is easier. When you start looking at boats see where the batteries are located. Many are tucked into a small space under a fixed floor, so you struggle to get at them. An ex hire boat is more likely to have a non-fixed floor above them for easy access. The same goes for things like water pumps and access to the engine.

 

On the downside, the interior is likely to be tired looking, and storage space may be limited (you don't need much storage for a 3,4, or 7 day break). I hade to make and fit in a "broom cupboard" to store the cleaning tools and materials, hire fleets tend to keep most of that sort of thing back at base. The engine and gearbox is likely to have done far more hours than a similar private boat, but in some ways that is no bad thing as long as the fleet has been doing regular filter and oil changes etc. Unless you can see the invoices there is far more chance that such things had been neglected on a private boat, and even if you do see invoices they say nothing about how diligently the work was carried out.

[Bettyblue]

That’s very useful thankyou 

[Stroudwater1]

1 hour ago, Crewcut said:

Buying privately at least you get to meet and speak with the owner so you can get an idea about them

 

Most boats are optimistically priced, your initial offer might be 10%, even 20% below the asking price and if you want subject to survey.

 

There are some bonkers asking prices, especially in/around that London. Then you have to arrange the lift out (if the boat's still afloat) and the survey. Be present for the survey if you have one. I've never had one but then I've never bought an old steel boat, ask for recommendations on here if you want a surveyor, pay no heed to a survey commissioned by the seller or take a recommendation for a surveyor from a broker. Above all be very careful if you're going to spend a big chunk of money on something you don't know much about, a lot of people get stung. Good luck with it all though, take your time, do lots of research, listen to and act upon advice from those that you can trust and you'll be fine...👍

 

Some sound advise later on , but many brokers will allow you to talk to the previous owner. Many will be sad to see their boat go and would welcome passing on tips or quirks of their boat to new owners. We spent a very pleasant 2 hours with the previous owner of ours sold by brokerage. I would have struggled at first otherwise. 

 

Its hard to know with prices, a good boat that ticks lots of boxes would sell at the asking price. Some brokers are more realistic about prices too. It seems there are more boats than buyers for the first time for several years so that 10-20% maybe reasonable overall suggestion but  that is definately not always the case. 

 

[Tacet]

22 hours ago, IanD said:

 

And exactly the same applies to houses, as we found after moving in... 😞

Not really.  Most houses now comprise registered land and the title is therefore guaranteed by the government.

[IanD]

11 minutes ago, Tacet said:

Not really.  Most houses now comprise registered land and the title is therefore guaranteed by the government.

Not title, problems with the building itself... 😞

[Tony1]

 

I'm rubbish at DIY, so I decided to prioritise getting the youngest boat I could, in the hope of avoiding large bills for things like engine repairs, hull repairs, or general repairs to the systems such as water or electricals. 

So I compromised on size and ended up buying at 50 footer, which has major space/storage challenges for a liveaboard (for me anyway), compared to a 57+ footer. 

So you might have to choose where you want or need to compromise the most.

If you're good at DIY, or learn to be, then you can save a lot of money. E.g. an engine service is usually pretty straightforward and the parts cost maybe £50-60 (depending on the engine), but I paid a professional do my first one, and that cost over £150. 

The temptation is to spend the whole budget on the purchase itself, but I would suggest you put at least £5k aside (10k if poss), as you will want to do upgrades or fix things that you didnt realise were broken. 

Depending on what you buy, its not madly unlikely that you will have to pay for an engine service, new batteries, and maybe one or two other bits that might be failed, or starting to fail- plus labour to install the new parts. 

On a 20-30 year old boat there might be questions about the future lifespan of the engine if its not been looked after well, and a new replacement engine can cost £8k or more. 

If there is major rust in the hull or base plate, an over-plating job might cost up to £10k.

There might be heavy rust around the water tank, or in the engine bay.

So there are some potentially big scary bills to fix the major problems, and if I were buying a boat of that age I would spend a couple of days inspecting every inch of the interior, and get a detailed survey of the hull.

If its not prying too much, I would suggest you state your approx budget, and the features you think are important, and the more experienced members here (of which I am not one!) will probably offer detailed advice on things to look out for, likely fixup costs, that sort of thing. 

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Tony1