Buying a Narrowboat

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Why would 2 woman need a washing machine ?

Have you not noticed womens wear something once then want to wash it?

 

Whereas a bloke will wear something ten or twenty times then wash it, whether it needs it or not. 
 

 

[LadyG]

My approach was two fold.

It had to look nice, ie stylish lines in as much as an outsize steel date box could ever have,that took about three months to develop my "eye". I am often complimented on the look of the boat.

During that three month time I found out which boats were built by good builders.

I typed my requirements in to Apollo Duck, and found one on New and Used.

Another was suggested by @Tumshi, thiswas the one I bought, in fact the only one I viewed, I was living "abroad", as in Scotland.

The one i had picked out  myself was not wholly owned by the vendor. I had to research this., caveat empetor. 

The first question I asked the vendor of my own boat was proof of ownership , no problem to someone who has owned ot for twenty years. I insisted on a Bill of Sale on my ownership transfer.  Vendor was uncomfortable, but he agreed as he wanted my money and I wanted his boat. 

 

 

2 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

They probably wear more clean cloths than us mucky men, I know my missus does when we are on the boat

I have a washing machine but don't use it as I am solo liveaboard and happy to use launderette in summer .

in winter when the stove is on I wash my socks snd my etcs and both dry overnight.

I have enough bedding to last for weekly changes over four weeks.

I think men should learn to wash their own shreddies, if they don't, they are not suitable husband material, not in any way,

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by LadyG

[Bettyblue]

Yes a washing machine is a definite must for us 👍

so is a fridge, can I ask is it best to get a 12v fridge? 
And why?

I still can’t get my head around the electrics on a NB , can washing machines be 12v ?is a shoreline fridge12v?

Does that mean you use less power with 12v?

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

24 minutes ago, Bettyblue said:

Yes a washing machine is a definite must for us 👍

so is a fridge, can I ask is it best to get a 12v fridge? 
And why?

I still can’t get my head around the electrics on a NB , can washing machines be 12v ?is a shoreline fridge12v?

Does that mean you use less power with 12v?

 

 

 

I think that you can get 12V twin tub washing machines and may keep them in the shower when not in use.

 

You can also get 12V COMPRESSOR fridges, like the Shoreline, but they are not the only supplier.

 

You use the same amount of battery charge (what you probably mean by power) for 12V DC and 240V AC equipment, except with 240V AC the inverter that changes 12V DCto 240V AC uses battery charge to power itself, so when running on batteries 240V equipment is likely to discharge the batteries more than 12V. However, 240V domestic equipment MIGHT be more efficient than the 12v equivalent. This tends to be true of top line fridges, so as long as the inverter is a quality one with low current demands to work itself there may not be much difference, electricity wise, between 12 and 240V fridges.

 

The biggest problem unless you are on a shore line is adequately recharging the batteries, and every year new boaters ruin several hundred pounds worth of batteries in a few weeks by not getting to grips with charging. Study the Battery Primer pinned at the top of the maintenance thread. Also study the electrical notes on my website and ask questions about anything you do not understand.

My website

Edited October 29, 2023 by Tony Brooks

[David Mack]

Key points to bear in mind through all the detail:

Equivalent 12V dc and 240V ac appliances will both use broadly the same amount of energy, so the choice between the two is down to the availability of models with the features you want, cost, and perhaps secondary differences in efficiency. If you run mains appliances from 12V batteries you will need an appropriately sized inverter.

Whether 12V or 240V, unless you have a shoreline power supply, all of the electricity you use has to be generated by some combination of your main propulsion engine, a separate generator and solar. Solar is all but useless in the winter months (but should keep your batteries topped up if you are not using any other power).

If you don't keep your batteries charged you will knacker them pretty quickly. It takes much longer to put the charge back in (for conventional lead acid batteries) than you may think. Not a problem for solar, but you (and your neighbours) may not appreciate the long hours of engine/generator running required otherwise.

Battery monitors lie about the state of charge of your batteries, unless you know how to regularly recalibrate them and interpret the readings.

Lithium batteries offer advantages in this respect, but are a whole different ballgame in terms of cost and understanding required.

[LadyG]

On 26/10/2023 at 09:30, Higgs said:

Caveat emptor.

 

 

Effectively there is no completely safe way of buying a boat , it's a risky business:

Ownership

Make sure you are satisfied the vendor owns the boat, it may be subject to a loan, but that is usually a personal loan, not a marine mortgage.

Obviously if the vendor squirms in any way, and has just had the thing for a few weeks, therefor has nothing to prove ownership, and has no driving licence with photo or a bricks and mortar address, and ask you to pay a Mr Sadeer ( yes this happened to me), then you are best to walk away.

I assumed I would have to spend about £1000 to replace batteries, service engine, clean everything. I also spent time in a marina painting the boat. That is not cheap.

Outside paint job about £1000, if paying someone then it's £4K to £14K.

Blacking  hull is going to be about £300 per annum, maybe more, but it's done every two or every five years, so a big lump sum when you need it done .

You will be able to economise if you are enthusiastic, and capable .

PS if you have no experience of these boats you may find it tough, but not necessarily  all may go well.

Big thing that will get you through the toughest times is if you enjoy the experience, and it may take a winter to find out if it suits you .

I am a minimal electricity user, but need to run engine up to eight hours per week to keep batterues charged. This is preferable to replacing them every two or three years, or even three months!

I have two solar panels which top batteries six months , summer only.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by LadyG
PS

[IanD]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Key points to bear in mind through all the detail:

Equivalent 12V dc and 240V ac appliances will both use broadly the same amount of energy, so the choice between the two is down to the availability of models with the features you want, cost, and perhaps secondary differences in efficiency. If you run mains appliances from 12V batteries you will need an appropriately sized inverter.

Whether 12V or 240V, unless you have a shoreline power supply, all of the electricity you use has to be generated by some combination of your main propulsion engine, a separate generator and solar. Solar is all but useless in the winter months (but should keep your batteries topped up if you are not using any other power).

If you don't keep your batteries charged you will knacker them pretty quickly. It takes much longer to put the charge back in (for conventional lead acid batteries) than you may think. Not a problem for solar, but you (and your neighbours) may not appreciate the long hours of engine/generator running required otherwise.

Battery monitors lie about the state of charge of your batteries, unless you know how to regularly recalibrate them and interpret the readings.

Lithium batteries offer advantages in this respect, but are a whole different ballgame in terms of cost and understanding required.

 

Here's what my solar (2.1kWp of flat-mounted panels) has done this month -- 42.2kWh over 26 days is 1.6kWh/day average (equivalent to 0.8 hours of full sunshine), compared to predicted average yield in summer of 7kWh/day (equivalent to 3.3 hours of full sunshine). I expect the output will be even lower by Xmas...

 

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by IanD

[JungleJames]

On 26/10/2023 at 06:16, Bettyblue said:

Ok thanks Oh I thought it would be, doesn’t a broker do more checks ?

A decent, proper broker will look after you, as well as the seller.

They will offer you advice if you ask, and try to make sure you aren't left with a lemon.

Get one of these brokers, and you are often better off with a broker. 

 

But, these brokers are few and far between. 

So it isn't a simple answer. 

Also those on here saying you are definitely no better off with a brokerage, just haven't utilised one of the handful of decent ones.

 

On 26/10/2023 at 06:24, Tony Brooks said:

 

NEVER ever rely on a survey provided by the vendor or broker. Ask yourself in whose interest was the surveyor working.

 

 

Whilst I would never make a habit of disagreeing with anything you say, you just haven't come across a real broker. 

Let's just leave it there, and say the answer is not NEVER.

The answer is HARDLY EVER.

[Tony Brooks]

54 minutes ago, JungleJames said:

Whilst I would never make a habit of disagreeing with anything you say, you just haven't come across a real broker. 

Let's just leave it there, and say the answer is not NEVER.

The answer is HARDLY EVER.

 

Brokers work on commission, just like estate agents, time-share pimps and similar. Of course there are varying degrees of honest and ethics between brokers, but perhaps rather than coming late to a conversation and apparently sniping from the sideless, you will explain to new and inexperienced brokers how they can determine that the broker handling the boat is one they can trust a survey from at all times. It will be very instructive, because I don't know a way. Reputation helps, but it is not infallible, a new member of staff can be very different to those who went before.

 

The advice to a new and inexperienced boater must be, NEVER rely on a survey provided by the vendor or broker, unless you can explain how they know the broker can be trusted.

 

A while ago, I am sure we had an example on here where a survey proffered as part of a sale had had its date altered.

[Alan de Enfield]

47 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

The advice to a new and inexperienced boater must be, NEVER rely on a survey provided by the vendor or broker, unless you can explain how they know the broker can be trusted.

 

 

Would you rely on a seller of a secondhand car telling you he had done a check and it was in perfect condition ?

 

No, neither would I - too much personal involvement.

 

If you wanted a 'survey' on a car you'd get an independent 'RAC Survey'.

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Would you rely on a seller of a secondhand car telling you he had done a check and it was in perfect condition ?

 

No, neither would I - too much personal involvement.

 

If you wanted a 'survey' on a car you'd get an independent 'RAC Survey'.

 

I think that you really should have quoted JungleJames's offering as well, because I was replying to his assertion that purchasers can trust surveys provided by some unidentified brokers. I agree with you, too much incentive to be devious, if not to tell downright lies.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, JungleJames said:

A decent, proper broker will look after you, as well as the seller.

They will offer you advice if you ask, and try to make sure you aren't left with a lemon.

Get one of these brokers, and you are often better off with a broker. 

 

But, these brokers are few and far between. 

So it isn't a simple answer. 

Also those on here saying you are definitely no better off with a brokerage, just haven't utilised one of the handful of decent ones.

 

Whilst I would never make a habit of disagreeing with anything you say, you just haven't come across a real broker. 

Let's just leave it there, and say the answer is not NEVER.

The answer is HARDLY EVER.

 

 

Would you rely on a seller of a secondhand car telling you he had done a check and it was in perfect condition ?

 

No, neither would I - too much personal involvement.

 

If you wanted a 'survey' on a car you'd get an independent 'RAC Survey'.

[Higgs]

I travelled 340 miles, in all, to view a boat a few days ago, by arrangement with the broker. I requested some information on some work that had been carried out, and to see the advertised good engine started. Got there, neither of the two requests were acknowledged. Got the keys, had a look at the boat, tore a strip off the broker, and left.

 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Higgs

[JungleJames]

Why argue when I'm being truthful and stating fact?

 

Ok Tony has a good point that it is easier to tell a newbie to never trust anyone. That is a fair point.

 

I have just pointed out that you can't paint everybody with the same brush, and in this regard, it is complete reality.

 

Surely you should be glad I have highlighted this?

Not keen to poke holes in it.

 

The responses should be more along the lines of:

Thank God there are decent brokers around, however few and far between. 

Unfortunately it's so rare, it's best to tell newbies to trust nobody.

 

It's funny. For someone supposedly known for criticising, and being a douchebag for doing as such, when I try and highlight something good I'm basically made out to be lying. 

 

Hey ho. I've said my piece, and I can sleep at night knowing I was spot on.

Although Tony has a fair point that it's sometimes easier to put it his way with newbies.

 

As you were. 

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Would you rely on a seller of a secondhand car telling you he had done a check and it was in perfect condition ?

 

No, neither would I - too much personal involvement.

 

If you wanted a 'survey' on a car you'd get an independent 'RAC Survey'.

Slightly different. You rarely get brokers in the car market.

I'm not on about private individual sellers.

[Bettyblue]

On 28/10/2023 at 19:40, MtB said:

 

There is however, a tendency on here for people to be overly negative. While I agree there is every chance of you buying a lemon there is also every chance of you buying a cracking good boat too. Both can happen accidentally. A huge list of reasons not to buy it could be compiled on here for pretty much every boat ever sold and your first boat will a bit of a gamble regardless if only because you have no experience of what you'll end up wanting in a boat after five years of living aboard. My advice is buy the first boat that 'speaks' to you, feels 'right' for you, has a nice welcoming atmosphere about it and you find enjoy being aboard. Most boats you view will leave you cold but one, either sooner or later, will bewitch you and MAKE you buy it! Thats the one for you. Don't resist.

 

Then, once you've bought it, set about dealing with the problems (if there are any). 

 

 

Thankyou for posting  I appreciate all the answers even those that agree to disagree.

it’s good to have different points of. view and for people to be polite about it is refreshing on

social media!

can I ask if all the rest of the discussions are as civilised ? I hope so 😀

[Private Fraser]

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Brokers work on commission, just like estate agents, time-share pimps and similar. Of course there are varying degrees of honest and ethics between brokers, but perhaps rather than coming late to a conversation and apparently sniping from the sideless, you will explain to new and inexperienced brokers how they can determine that the broker handling the boat is one they can trust a survey from at all times. It will be very instructive, because I don't know a way. Reputation helps, but it is not infallible, a new member of staff can be very different to those who went before.

 

The advice to a new and inexperienced boater must be, NEVER rely on a survey provided by the vendor or broker, unless you can explain how they know the broker can be trusted.

 

A while ago, I am sure we had an example on here where a survey proffered as part of a sale had had its date altered.

Not all brokers work on commission, Norbury is a fixed rate

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, Private Fraser said:

Not all brokers work on commission, Norbury is a fixed rate

Fair enough, but there is still an incentive to get the boat sold. I may have missed it but although the fact that brokers work for the seller, no one seem to have mentioned that if a broker divulged a negative aspect of a boat to the purchaser without being asked a direct question they would probably be in breach of contract. Let alone scuppering their chance of a fee or commission.

 

I would also ask if you are sure the public facing staff are not paid a commission on sales, much like car salesmen.

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, Higgs said:

I travelled 340 miles, in all, to view a boat a few days ago, by arrangement with the broker. I requested some information on some work that had been carried out, and to see the advertised good engine started. Got there, neither of the two requests were acknowledged. Got the keys, had a look at the boat, tore a strip off the broker, and left.

 

 

Name and shame.

I have named a broker [New and Used], who had a boat on his website where the vendor asked me not to pay the broker

but to pay a Mr Sadiq or some such !

On enquiry, i spoke to a farmer who had the boat on his eog mooring said he was owed money.

That was the end of my interest. I made one phone call to find out the problem . The broker did not kick it off his site.

 

 

7 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Name and shame.

I have named a broker [New and Used], who had a boat on his website where the vendor asked me not to pay the broker

but to pay a Mr Sadiq or some such !

On enquiry, i spoke to a farmer who had the boat on his eog mooring said he was owed money.

That was the end of my interest. I made one phone call to find out the problem . The broker did not kick it off his site.

 

 

I am not sure when I will sell my boat, I would probably want a premium price and would probably have it taken south, then have it prepped for sale, out of water, clean and refresh hull and gunwales. I'd want at least £4K for this.

OR, I could put it on Apollo Duck at £5K less, and see who is interested , all depends on timing.,  my need for 

cash etc etc 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by LadyG

[Higgs]

Just now, LadyG said:

Name and shame.

I have named a broker [New and Used], who had a boat on his website where the vendor asked me not to pay the broker

but to pay a Mr Sadiq or some such !

On enquiry, i spoke to a farmer who had the boat on his eog mooring said he was owed money.

That was the end of my interest. I made one phone call to find out the problem . The broker did not kick it off his site.

 

 

 

I'm not going to name, because I got my two-penneth in. The boat was not a narrowboat. I was looking for a bolt-hole, and possibly, another hobby. The boat was in need, but for the price, it seemed like a reasonable risk. I did think I would get some help from the broker, but didn't. They can't be that interested in selling it, and probably make more by keeping it paying mooring fees. However, I didn't like the interior layout, or the damp seat cushions. And I couldn't get over the size of the mast. But thought experiencing the real physical size of the boat was good.

 

 

 

 

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, Bettyblue said:

Thankyou for posting  I appreciate all the answers even those that agree to disagree.

it’s good to have different points of. view and for people to be polite about it is refreshing on

social media!

can I ask if all the rest of the discussions are as civilised ? I hope so 😀

There are those who are on my ignore list due to venom, but most of them have now left the site, and i suspect few were even boat owners.

Generally you will get good advice on here. 

Just now, LadyG said:

There are those who are on my ignore list due to venom, but most of them have now left the site, and i suspect few were even boat owners.

Generally you will get good advice on here. 

Regarding selling a yacht, it's probably much more difficult if the upholstery is damp, and likely other problems.

A project  vessel, may best to sell it as such.

If it just been neglected for a year, might be a good idea to haul it out, dry it out, clean it up, and sell it in the spring.

To he honest brokers want something they can sell today.

[Private Fraser]

1 hour ago, Bettyblue said:

Thankyou for posting  I appreciate all the answers even those that agree to disagree.

it’s good to have different points of. view and for people to be polite about it is refreshing on

social media!

can I ask if all the rest of the discussions are as civilised ? I hope so 😀

Once you’ve visited a few times you’ll filter the wheat from the chaff 😉

[debbbbs]

On 27/10/2023 at 10:35, Bettyblue said:

That is so kind of you to take the time to write what you have Tony, I do appreciate it.

I will be spending what will be my retirement savings on the NB so it is crucial that I get it right. I have already started researching and I will keep on doing so.

I was thinking of an ex hire NB because that way I could get two bedrooms which is what I need for my daughter and myself . But I will make sure I view lots of boats when I get back to the UK in March .

Any views on ex hire NBs ?

Hi Bettyblue,  just a quick question that has not been asked. Have you been on a narrowboat ?

[Didne]

Also, once you actually start going onboard some boats, you may find what looks great in the photos isn’t so great in real life … for me I’ve discovered that any with really narrow squeezes of thin corridors along one edge of the boat is just too uncomfortable to spend any amount of time on (but then I’m not so skinny !) … I’ve been in enough tight ones now to recognise from the photos the ones that just won’t do for me, and it’s all personal taste, but it can be hard to judge from photos alone until you’ve managed to get on board a few … I’m not trying to put you off, just saying try a few different styles of layout before making up your mind what you want … Wilton let me go aboard every boat they had and it was quite an education … Happy hunting … xxx

Edited December 12, 2023 by Didne