Hi guys my girlfriend and me have just bought a 52ft david piper boat and we want to know which insulation to use

[tyrone1990]

we dont no, itll be hard in getting used to but I think we will manage... eventually.

I agree the timing is bad and we have bought  a continuous mooring licence

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Looking at those pictures you really need to strip out completely back to bare steel, clean off all that rust and then paint the inside of the steelwork before you even think about battening out insulating, wiring, lining out and then adding internal furniture.

If you are really moving aboard in 5 weeks I would suggest you first put a (temporary) bulkhead and door halfway down the boat, move into one half using it as best you can, then strip out and refit the other end completely. Then change ends and repeat.

You will only be living in half the boat, but it will keep your domestic stuff separate from the refitting. And it will give you the opportunity to do the job properly. It will inevitably involve some compromises where services cross between the two halves, as well as a possible need for temporary bathroom and kitchen facilities, but it will be a better job in the end. And by keeping the refit separate from the domestic living you can always just shut the communicating door and take a break from refitting if it all gets too much.

 

Thanks for the advice, yeah for me the rust needs sanding and then treated with hammerite and then we will go from there 

We would live in half of it as you said. First big thing is the insulation and the sub floor and flooring and then itll be better from there

2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Is this a strip out and refit? Spray foam is the best IMO, best insulation per inch of thickness (and internal space is at a premium). Rockwool can suffer from holding moisture - moisture from condensation on the cold steel - if there are any air spaces, which there probably will be. So celotex would be my second choice, polystyrene my third and rockwool my fourth.

Thanks for the advice!

So celotex is the better choice then, and as long as they are sealed properly? What thickness would you reckon? This is something im unsure of!

Closed cell foam is 2.5cm or more apparently 

2 hours ago, BEngo said:

Wot Nick said.  IF you are going to do a full strip and refit. Spray foam all the way.

 

  If not, and it is a stage by stage job celotex or kingspan is much the best.  Pay attention to maintaining a vapour barrier,  taping up all joints and making sure that each stage is properly connected to the previous one. Otherwise your boat will rust from the inside out.

Polystyrene needs to be fire retardant type,  is messier and  should be kept separate from PVC cable insulation as it reacts with the plasticiser and the cables sink into the polystyrene, reducing its insulating quality.  Some have claimed that the de-plasticised cable, which has brittle insulation is then likely to be a fire hazard. I do not agree with this as the cable is held firmly by the polystyrene.

 

Rock wool is just unsuited. As well as the faults listed, it tends to slump so, on the sides,  there is no insulation at the top and the bottom is crushed and ineffective.  Again you need a vapour barrier and you have to create all of it as there is no smooth face to rock wool.

 

 

N

Thanks!

For the vapour barrier, I had no idea about that. From what ive just read, you have to add the foil to the metal shell and this prevents moisture penetrating the insulation right?

[nicknorman]

50 minutes ago, tyrone1990 said:

For the vapour barrier, I had no idea about that. From what ive just read, you have to add the foil to the metal shell and this prevents moisture penetrating the insulation right?

The moisture comes from the warm air in the cabin - well, from your breath mostly! If it can get to the cold steel then it will condense. It can't get in through the steel so there is no point in putting a vapour barrier next to the steel. If you are going to use celotex etc then the foil is a vapour barrier, you just need to get the aluminium tape to seal the joints on the room side.

Edited September 11, 2023 by nicknorman

[LadyG]

I am not expert, but still willing to throw in a few of my own ideas.

I would not use Hammerite, its  well advertised, but not in  marine environment.

You are going to need top quality coatings, so best to delve in to the world of rust treatment, primers, undercoats, topcoats.

There are single pack paints, and two pack etc etc.

I buy my stuff from SML, they have a technical advice if you ask for it 

 

Make sure you wear real protective clothing, especially face mask when sanding.

Edited September 11, 2023 by LadyG

[rusty69]

6 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I am not expert, but still willing to throw in a few of my own ideas.

I would not use Hammerite, its  well advertised, but not in  marine environment.

You are going to need top quality coatings, so best to delve in to the world of rust treatment, primers, undercoats, topcoats.

There are single pack paints, and two pack etc etc.

Make sure you wear real protective clothing, especially face mask.

Could you suggest the best place to purchase these paints? 

[blackrose]

2 hours ago, dmr said:

Sprayfoam is regarded as the best, and cellotex type stuff as the next.

 

 

Yes IF the sprayfoam is applied properly.

 

If the OP is getting someone in to do the job then sprayfoam. If it's DIY then 1" cellotex, kingspan, etc, bonded to the steel either with sprayfoam from cans or with Stixall or other good flexible PU adhesive/sealants. Contrary to popular belief on this forum it doesn't matter if you have narrow gaps between the cellotex and the steel as long as any gaps around the perimeter of the boards are insulated & sealed. A finite airgap can only produce a finite amount of condensation. On the other hand if it's not sealed that gap will continue to "suck in" fresh air and water vapour. Use handheld cans of fire rated foam to fill gaps between boards and if necessary seal with aluminium tape.

[LadyG]

21 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Could you suggest the best place to purchase these paints? 

Oh, err, lots of free info, from SML Paints, no one is committed to purchase

PS I think I would use Rustoleum on that ceiling=deckhead, sold by Rawlins of leeds, check out the clearance for half price colours.

Edited September 11, 2023 by LadyG

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, tyrone1990 said:

For the vapour barrier, I had no idea about that. 

 

No need for a vapour barrier in conjunction with sprayfoam or cellotex, etc. It is a vapour barrier. You only need a separate vapour barrier with rockwool and maybe 3M Thinsulate.

[magnetman]

Paint grease on the inside of the steel then stick rockwool to it. 

[Sea Dog]

4 hours ago, tyrone1990 said:

Hi guys my girlfriend and me have just bought a 52ft david piper boat and we want to know...

Take a look at www.piperowners.co.uk for some info on Piper boats.  Dot Piper, wife of David, mum of Simon, still answers questions there.

[agg221]

If I was in your situation I would not be confident of finishing the job in the available time, and would want to limit the disruption. I would therefore do the following:

 

Working in sections down the boat, I would remove everything from a section, run a powered wire brush (angle grinder) over it to remove any loose rust and then either use a surface tolerant epoxy or Vactan and a single pack paint, depending on budget and personal preference. Once the first day's work was done, the following day I would start by preparing a second section for half the day, then paint it, then go to the first day's section where the paint was dry and use Celotex or Kingspan, as per blackrose's comments, with a bead of adhesive right around the edge. I would cut it deliberately about an inch undersize and stick it in the middle of the panel, then use spray insulation to fill up around the edges. This is much quicker than trying to get an accurate fit, and the gap is wide enough to ensure that the spray foam goes right to the bottom. Once cured, I would trim off flush to the batten and tape right over the top (buy 6" wide tape). This will give you a pretty thorough job and the battens can be felt through the tape when fixing over the top (mark them up with a Sharpie).

 

Once you have a sense of how much you can prep, paint and infill in a day, I would swap the order so the painting comes last. That gives you minimum exposure to the fumes, although one reason I prefer epoxy is that it is very high solids so the solvent exposure is reduced. Avoid water-based paints, keep the ventilation high and be aware that if you use Vactan it may be tricky to get that to dry and then the overcoating paint on top in a single day so the process might extend by a day.

 

Alec

[magnetman]

I hope the boat is a very good deal. Looks like a complete nightmare disaster area to me but I might be biased as I know I could never execute the required work. 

 

 

 

Or realistic. I'm never quite sure. 

[GUMPY]

I believe you are having a 🦒

 

5 weeks not a chance,  5 months vaguely possible if you are skilled and do it as a job 6 days a week.

[LadyG]

I think you will need to vacuum dust after sanding or its all going to end up everywhere. Lots of panel wipe and blue roll. 

I'm looking at the floor, it seems new laminate on top of old vinyl.

Before completing I would want to examine the bilges, if dry and look OK, I'd make sure that there is provision for inspection, I'd probably remove vinyl as it might sweat. Not sure if that is a thing. I know some boats have a cold floor, I'd not want to put insulation inside the bilges.

[Bee]

Spray foam is best. The rust that I can see is nothing to worry about, if you are a bit worried about it maybe around the windows then sand the loose stuff off and paint it. It looks as though bitumen paint has been used, if so then use something compatible. A lot of the work is straightforward, there are no difficult curves, battens are already there, everything will be straight (ish), ply below the gunnels and whatever you like above, windows are in, the floor and presumably ballast is in, a basic elsan will do for a loo, You certainly will need a stove and I would recommend a simple gravity system with radiators and be careful to not create a fire hazard where the flue goes through the ceiling. You will need a gas cooker eventually so buy the 'forever' one and get it fixed and fitted. Curtain off the loo and bed spaces and move in. 5 weeks to move in? Yeah, it won't be finished by any means but it will be a home and when it is finished you will know how to fix it which is a lot more than most owners. I've lived on much more primitive boats with really difficult women. Keep it simple and enjoy it. Good Luck.

[tyrone1990]

12 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

No need for a vapour barrier in conjunction with sprayfoam or cellotex, etc. It is a vapour barrier. You only need a separate vapour barrier with rockwool and maybe 3M Thinsulate.

Ok got it! I think we will go for the foam as its not as much as i first thought, just the thickness is what I am not too sure about.

Ive seen people say that they got 25mm installed and then the companies are recommending 50mm but I think they would want to sell you more as its better for them so Im not sure what you think?

 

Thanks

10 hours ago, Bee said:

Spray foam is best. The rust that I can see is nothing to worry about, if you are a bit worried about it maybe around the windows then sand the loose stuff off and paint it. It looks as though bitumen paint has been used, if so then use something compatible. A lot of the work is straightforward, there are no difficult curves, battens are already there, everything will be straight (ish), ply below the gunnels and whatever you like above, windows are in, the floor and presumably ballast is in, a basic elsan will do for a loo, You certainly will need a stove and I would recommend a simple gravity system with radiators and be careful to not create a fire hazard where the flue goes through the ceiling. You will need a gas cooker eventually so buy the 'forever' one and get it fixed and fitted. Curtain off the loo and bed spaces and move in. 5 weeks to move in? Yeah, it won't be finished by any means but it will be a home and when it is finished you will know how to fix it which is a lot more than most owners. I've lived on much more primitive boats with really difficult women. Keep it simple and enjoy it. Good Luck.

Yeah for me I would treat all of the rust as I is flaking, it does need some sanding and then I can apply a product to it

One issue with the batons as I think they are 25mm, the boat is currently moored on the other side of London so I would be able to do visit it until the weekend but the baton thickness could be an issue if the thickness of insulation we want, pretrudes the baton thickness, if you know what I mean

11 hours ago, LadyG said:

I think you will need to vacuum dust after sanding or its all going to end up everywhere. Lots of panel wipe and blue roll. 

I'm looking at the floor, it seems new laminate on top of old vinyl.

Before completing I would want to examine the bilges, if dry and look OK, I'd make sure that there is provision for inspection, I'd probably remove vinyl as it might sweat. Not sure if that is a thing. I know some boats have a cold floor, I'd not want to put insulation inside the bilges.

Yeah the flooring is relatively new, as for the floor I did want it to be accessible, if there were any issues, so I don't think i will insulate it, in case there is an issue. 

12 hours ago, magnetman said:

I hope the boat is a very good deal. Looks like a complete nightmare disaster area to me but I might be biased as I know I could never execute the required work. 

 

 

 

Or realistic. I'm never quite sure. 

It was alright at 16.5 k 

with no hull issues and being a good size and 18 months ago it was up for 40k but it was kitted out but the previous owner bought it 18 months ago and decided not to finish it after ripping everything out so its quite strange but I guess he just felt he didnt have the time or energy to take on the project so I guess it makes sense looking at it

[LadyG]

Sounds like a good deal, let's hope everything goes to plan

If you have someone to do the foam then it seems better to have more insulation than less, the cost will be little more, but it will stabilise temperature fluctuations, makes life more comfortable.

will they do the roof? Insulation is required to some degree.

Use insulated curtains or blinds for same reason. 

You may need to plan  behind the stove, search on here for information and diagrams.

Best buy a brand name stove which will stay on 24/7 

I have a stove with a back boiler gravity fed via a bathroom radiator to calorifier with fat copper pipes, this keeps everything warm and dry, no pump involved.

With such a short timescale, I would find a good fitter to do the gas, try Gas safe register, lpg and boat qualified. I have a Thetford Caprice cooker which is OK after 20 years. 

My Webasto radiators are great in summer, to dry a few clothes, and remove chill autumn and spring , hot water for showers, though I don't have a hot/cold mixer.

Finding a good plumber with experience of fitting canal boats is a priority, I would stick with copper, tried and tested!

I don't see a stove, you may need to find a fitter for this job, make sure you use experienced fitters.

Ditto electrics, you just cannot do everything yourself without taking three months off work.

Edited September 12, 2023 by LadyG

[magnetman]

There is a fire in the boat in the picture. 

 

Worth upgrading to a DEFRA approved appliance if doing a lot of work and finances allow it but for the time being that fire probably works unless the flue has been open which case water damage could be a problem. 

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, tyrone1990 said:

One issue with the batons as I think they are 25mm, the boat is currently moored on the other side of London so I would be able to do visit it until the weekend but the baton thickness could be an issue if the thickness of insulation we want, pretrudes the baton thickness, if you know what I mean

It wouldn't be difficult to screw another 25mm batten to the front of each existing batten to increase the potential insulation thickness.

Spray foam is inevitably somewhat variable in thickness, so 50mm of batten will give you a better chance of achieving 25mm minimum without having too much excess to trim back elsewhere.

And before spraying, apply cheap parcel tape to the front face of all battens. Makes it much easier to remove the excess and leave a flat surface to attach the lining to.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, tyrone1990 said:

[snip]

It was alright at 16.5 k 

with no hull issues and being a good size and 18 months ago it was up for 40k but it was kitted out but the previous owner bought it 18 months ago and decided not to finish it after ripping everything out so its quite strange but I guess he just felt he didnt have the time or energy to take on the project so I guess it makes sense looking at it

 

I hope you don't end up in the same situation -- there's a *lot* to do and moving onboard in 5 weeks seems rather optimistic, everything on boats *always* takes longer than planned... 😉

Edited September 12, 2023 by IanD

[magnetman]

 

 

 

Another important question for @tyrone1990 is have you dealt with rockwool before? 

 

It varies between people but I once went in a boat very similar to this and could not breathe properly. I'm very sensitive to the rockwool. 

 

There is quite a lot of it in there which will need removing. A lot of PPE would be wise I think. 

 

 

[LadyG]

You need to be aware that boat electrics are not the same as auto electrics or house electrics. If you can find someone to do these narrowboat specuslist things, they will speed the process, but it is very difficult to find good fitters.

[blackrose]

13 hours ago, magnetman said:

Paint grease on the inside of the steel then stick rockwool to it. 

 

No don't do that for gawds sake!

[magnetman]

https://www.hoenderop.com/anti-rust-grease-miral-hull-grease/grp/905

 

Commonly used in Dutch barges. 

 

Not sure if there is a uk supplier. 

 

I would be a bit nervous of sprayfoam on old steel. You'll never get it perfectly clean so there is always a chance of some condensation traps. 

 

How does sprayfoam bond deal with very hot hull sides for example. You would never know if it just comes unstuck. 

 

Hull grease with rockwool applied to it is actually quite an interesting way to insulate a boat. 

 

 

 

[nicknorman]

2 hours ago, tyrone1990 said:

Ok got it! I think we will go for the foam as its not as much as i first thought, just the thickness is what I am not too sure about.

Ive seen people say that they got 25mm installed and then the companies are recommending 50mm but I think they would want to sell you more as its better for them so Im not sure what you think?

 

Insulation thickness: Well in principle, the more the better. However within the limited confines of a boat, space is at a premium and even an inch lost each side is significant. I would just go out to the existing batterns on the side. Looking at the amount of window there is probably not much point in insulating the cabin sides very well, when a lot of heat will be lost through the windows. Depending on the headroom you need / have available, I might be inclined to put a bit more on the roof so eg 25mm on the side (or whatever the battern thickness is) and 50mm on the roof (adding extra batterns if necessary). Not just to keep the heat in, but a steel narrowboat's roof can get very hot in the sun and you don't want all that heat inside on a hot day.

I think with diy sprayfoam the difficulty is getting an even fill just up to the batterns and no more. Otherwise you have to spend a lot of time and mess cutting the foam back so that it isn't protruding beyond the batterns.

Edited September 12, 2023 by nicknorman

[magnetman]

 

Another approach I have seen is to empty the entire cabin, battens and all then get the sprayfoam man to come and do a good thick coating. 

 

Then you move into the boat. 

 

Its a bit like living in a cave (which I would really like) and I suppose there might be environmental factors such as dirt or perhaps foam dust but it would be a heck of a lot less work and you would have an exceptionally well insulated boat. 

 

I still think the windows on that boat are too big for a liveaboard craft.