Boating on ‘un-navigable’ rivers.

[Jimbobs]

I’ve been thinking for a while about getting a small motor boat, something like a small dory with an outboard, that I can trailer around and pop in the odd river or take to the coast. I’m on hols in Northumberland at the moment and was walking along the Tweed, a bit upstream from Berwick, and thought that it would be lovely to have a potter up the river. 

 

According to the Boatlaunch website, there’s a public slipway in Berwick so it would be possible to get a boat in, but the river isn’t listed as navigable on either the CRT or IWA websites. There’s a trip boat that runs from Berwick and goes up the river, and it’s a pretty big boat, so the river is obviously deep enough. 

 

I’ve searched online and I can’t find anything about a navigation authority that covers the Tweed. I’m not sure you can get ever so far upstream, probably 10 miles-ish, and it would almost definitely depend on tides. 

 

Assuming that the boat was CRT licensed, insured etc, is there any reason why I couldn’t just drop a boat in at Berwick and potter as far upstream as the depth would allow?

[matty40s]

I bought a pair of paddleboards in 2021 to do such as this. Absolutely silent but for the paddle strokes, you creep up on the wildlife quite easily, which in the case of swans can be an uncomfortable experience!! 

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, Jimbobs said:

Assuming that the boat was CRT licensed, insured etc, is there any reason why I couldn’t just drop a boat in at Berwick and potter as far upstream as the depth would allow?

 

 

I am pretty sure that C&RT have no responsibility or authority over the River Tweed.

 

As the Tweed is a "Special Area of Conservation" You may be better advised to talk with the "River Tweed Commission"

I imagine that they might not be happy with a petrol powered boat trolling thru an area designated under the highest possible rating for protection.

 

I realise you are not planning on building a factory, but the attached may be of interest showing the importance of the area.

 

River Tweed SAC & SSSI guidance (Final draft in template) - 11 December 2017 (A2464025) (nature.scot)

Edited August 26, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[David Mack]

If there's a public slipway then presumably you aren't the only person to be doing this. So I would just go ahead.

More generally for a river which has no obvious navigation authority there is probably no right of navigation, so in theory you will be trespassing (the river and bed beneath it belonging to the riparian landowner). But its pretty unlikely anybody will stop you on a river of any size.

That said, an unpowered (hunan powered) or electric boat would create less disturbance as well as being less likely to attract attention.

[MtB]

15 minutes ago, David Mack said:

If there's a public slipway then presumably you aren't the only person to be doing this. So I would just go ahead.

 

Seconded. 

 

As they say, better to beg forgiveness than ask permission. 

 

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

I'd say this is the wrong forum to be asking this question. Much better to ask it of canoeists, for whom it is a big issue. There are very few rivers with a right of navigation, so canoeists are confined to the small number that are. The owners of riparian and fishing rights for other rivers are for the most part of the "Get orrf my water" persuasion. Going for stealth in an unpowered boat is less likely to attract attention and possible legal unpleasantness.

The Book of Trespass, by Nick Hayes is a good general read. He writes about the tiny proportion of land and water we plebs are allowed to visit in England and how it got that way, interspersed by various travels he has done, by land and water in places the owners don't want him and others to be.

[magpie patrick]

Tidal waters generally have a public right of navigation, often with no navigation authority to manage them. Some non-tidal rivers also have a right of navigation but no navigation authority although there aren't many of those and working out which they are isn't straightforward. 

 

If its tidal, launch your boat and go for it, for your own sake have insurance but you don't need a CRT license  

[ditchcrawler]

11 hours ago, David Mack said:

If there's a public slipway then presumably you aren't the only person to be doing this. So I would just go ahead.

More generally for a river which has no obvious navigation authority there is probably no right of navigation, so in theory you will be trespassing (the river and bed beneath it belonging to the riparian landowner). But its pretty unlikely anybody will stop you on a river of any size.

That said, an unpowered (hunan powered) or electric boat would create less disturbance as well as being less likely to attract attention.

There are public slipways on the broads but you still need a licence from the BA

[mrsmelly]

Interesting topic. Its the UK so I expect someone would moan and try to stop you? Remember that in the UK you generaly need a licence to breath, whilst CRT rules are few and easy to comply with it will be harder to comply when there isnt a list to comply with. Just remember that in the UK we need a licence just to watch television ffs so I reckon someone will try to stand in your way.

[Mike Todd]

12 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Seconded. 

 

As they say, better to beg forgiveness than ask permission. 

 

 

Better  by what criterion? Ethically? Personal expression?

[Alan de Enfield]

I prefer the other version ..............

 

"Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6"

[Jerra]

13 hours ago, David Mack said:

If there's a public slipway then presumably you aren't the only person to be doing this. So I would just go ahead.

More generally for a river which has no obvious navigation authority there is probably no right of navigation, so in theory you will be trespassing (the river and bed beneath it belonging to the riparian landowner). But its pretty unlikely anybody will stop you on a river of any size.

That said, an unpowered (hunan powered) or electric boat would create less disturbance as well as being less likely to attract attention.

Having looked at the position of the slipway, near the mouth of the river beside the lifeboat station I suspect its main use is for small boats at sea and not the river.

[PeterScott]

15 hours ago, Jimbobs said:

... There’s a trip boat that runs from Berwick and goes up the river, and it’s a pretty big boat, so the river is obviously deep enough. ...

 

Had a ride upstream on the tripboat last year.

 

 

 

 

Lots of water in Berwick when the tide is in ...

 

 

 

and less water when it goes out. Compare my 'Tonic' posts 10Oct2022  (#2) (#3)  9Oct2022  (#2) (#3)

Berwick has an operational commercial dock, with a thriving trade in wood. Upriver riparian interests are concerned with salmon fishing. Looks a seriously tricky tidal navigation ...

[Jerra]

20 minutes ago, PeterScott said:

Upriver riparian interests are concerned with salmon fishing. Looks a seriously tricky tidal navigation ...

From my experience of canoeing Salmon rivers (admittedly several decades ago) they don't take kindly to canoeists, so what they would think of motor power I don't know but sus[ect i could guess. 

[Jimbobs]

Thanks for the replies everyone and many thanks Jen-in-Wellies - the British Canoeing website has a mine of information, such as:

 

“In nearly all cases there is a Public Right of Navigation (PRN) on tidal waters. This includes the seas, estuaries and tidal rivers – up to their historic Normal Tidal Limit (NTL).”

 

And, as it happens, there’s an ordnance survey map in the house we’re staying at which has the NTL marked. Every day’s a school day and I certainly know more this afternoon than I did this morning. 

 

PeterScott - we walked down the river in Berwick this morning at low tide and there certainly wouldn’t be any boating at that time!

[magnetman]

If its tidal as already mentioned it has a PRN status so you can go there on a boat. Depth and general condition is another kettle of fish. 

 

I would be wary of doing off-boat exploration of things such as islands or adjacent land as shootists and fishists might be interested and have arrangements in place to discourage this. 

 

 

There could be acid traps. 

Edited August 27, 2023 by magnetman

[Momac]

You can navigate the Humber and the Trent all the way up to Gainsborogh with no license for example. So its well established that a license isn't required for every bit of river.

[ditchcrawler]

18 minutes ago, MartynG said:

You can navigate the Humber and the Trent all the way up to Gainsborogh with no license for example. So its well established that a license isn't required for every bit of river.

Or the Thames to Teddington

[David Mack]

13 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

There are public slipways on the broads but you still need a licence from the BA

Yes. But the Broads aren't 'unnavigable' waterways with no apparent navigation authority, as the OP suggested was the case here.

[Cheese]

9 hours ago, MartynG said:

You can navigate the Humber and the Trent all the way up to Gainsborogh with no license for example. So its well established that a license isn't required for every bit of river.

That's because it is tidal up to Cromwell lock, so covered under the tidal PRN.

[magpie patrick]

5 hours ago, Cheese said:

That's because it is tidal up to Cromwell lock, so covered under the tidal PRN.

The PRN as a result of being tidal doesn't mean a license isn't needed - where a navigation authority or harbour authority has been created in law they can impose conditions including the payment of tolls or the need for a licence. The difference for tidal rivers is that the PRN default setting even on rivers or lengths of river that don't have a navigation authority or harbour authority.

 

In practice on the Trent ABP, the navigation authority, don't require a licence on their length from Trent Falls to Gainsborough, whereas CRT do above Gainsborough 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Is the "tidal OK to canoe on" thing applicable in Scotland as well as England? Once you get out of Berwick the border runs down the middle of the river, so you might be OK, or not, depending on which side of the river you are on! 😀

[magpie patrick]

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Is the "tidal OK to canoe on" thing applicable in Scotland as well as England? Once you get out of Berwick the border runs down the middle of the river, so you might be OK, or not, depending on which side of the river you are on! 😀

That was a question I didn't want to ask! As far as I'm aware the law over public footpaths is different in Scotland - there aren't any, I think because there is a general right of access? How this relates to rivers is well beyond the outer reaches of my knowledge.

[Momac]

7 hours ago, Cheese said:

That's because it is tidal up to Cromwell lock, so covered under the tidal PRN.

Yes it is tidal up to Cromwell but C&RT have authority over the tidal river above the road bridge at Gainsborough. Speed restrictions are in place and are set  by C&RT.

I may be wrong but belive the right to navigate includes the Trent up to at least Trent Bridge if not further. 

This is why there is no such thing as a river license.

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, MartynG said:

This is why there is no such thing as a river license.

 

Have you thought of mentioning that to C&RT ?

 

They call it a licence so they can charge VAT on it, whilst a 'registration' is zero rated for VAT