Calor Gas 13 Kg. Propane Cylinder

[MtB]

18 minutes ago, magnetman said:

To be fair I think that Calor could be described as part of a cartel. 

 

No they could not. Which competitors do you hold Calor is they colluding with? There are none, so where is the cartel?

 

 

 

20 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Obviously they are not in themselves a cartel but do you ever see reasonably priced bottled gas at boatyards? 

 

So you agree they are not part of a cartel. If they were over-pricing why has no competition appeared?

 

I appreciate your political views make the hard left seem reasonable, so you have an axe to grind here. 

 

 

[magnetman]

5 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

No they could not. Which competitors do you hold Calor is they colluding with? There are none, so where is the cartel?

 

 

 

 

So you agree they are not part of a cartel. If they were over-pricing why has no competition appeared?

 

I appreciate your political views make the hard left seem reasonable, so you have an axe to grind here. 

 

 

Calor do have competitors. 

 

Flo Gas is the most obvious. 

 

I think shell might still do bottles as well. 

 

Not many but Calor are not in fact the only supplier. 

 

 

Why bring politics into it? 

 

I'm just pointing out that Calor actually are effectively part of a cartel which is artificially keeping the price of bottled gas higher than it would naturally be. 

 

 

I said they are "not in themselves a cartel" because a cartel by definition requires a group of producers/suppliers to act together. Therefore one company can not be a cartel. 

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Calor do have competitors. 

 

Flo Gas is the most obvious. 

 

I think shell might still do bottles as well. 

 

Not many but Calor are not in fact the only supplier. 

 

 

Why bring politics into it? 

 

I'm just pointing out that Calor actually are effectively part of a cartel which is artificially keeping the price of bottled gas higher than it would naturally be. 

 

 

 

So because in your opinion, bottled gas costs more than you think it should, Calor are in a cartel? 

 

What expertise do you have in the petrochemical industry?

 

 

 

[magnetman]

I don't have any expertise but OPEC is described as a cartel so why would bottled gas not have the same arrangements? Nobody is worried that the world supply of oil is controlled by a cartel, that is just normal. 

 

Just because the word cartel is usually associated with illegal drug providers does not necessarily mean it is a Bad Thing. It is just how some industries work and I think the bottled gas industry may be an example. 

 

 

It does look a bit like a cartel when you investigate the production and supply of bottled gas to consumers. 

 

 

 

"A cartel is an organization formed by producers to limit competition and increase prices by creating artificial shortages through low production quotas, stockpiling, and marketing quotas"

 

If course we all know there have never been any shortages or supply problems with Calor. God forbid. This would never happen. 

 

There is no shortage of gas and there is no shortage of steel to make the bottles. It didn't happen. 

 

 

 

 

 

[robtheplod]

15 hours ago, NB Alnwick said:

We used to get our pop delivered by Corona in re-sealable bottles but that was in the good old days when our railways were still British . . .

and 2p each to collect and take back to newsagent?   ah happy days! 

[Stroudwater1]

42 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

and 2p each to collect and take back to newsagent?   ah happy days! 

2p? I’m sure it went up to 10p at some time, it was worth looking in hedgerows at that point. We did and the poor post office stores took back some proper grubby bottles. 

 

 

[Ronaldo47]

My local off licence used to take any bottles, but the one at my cousins' used to rubber stamp the labels of the bottles they sold and would only accept back bottles with their own stamp.

 

There was an item on the radio at the weekend about the government's proposed introduction of a compulsory returnable deposit on drink cans and bottles. Apparently the industry believe that the scheme will cost at least ten times as much as the government's estimate, and would result in a significant increase in prices.  

Edited August 21, 2023 by Ronaldo47
typos

[NB Alnwick]

The price of progress! Why is anything that we used to do rather well now regarded as too expensive or too complicated?

For example:

Despite massive opposition from landowners (nothing new there), plans for the original London to Birmingham Railway (now part of the West Coast main line) were approved by Parliament in May 1833 and the line opened throughout on 17 September 1838 - the actual construction works taking less than five years!

With the benefit of modern technology and mechanised earth-moving equipment, HS2 has already taken more than five years to build and as far as I know they haven't laid any significant length of railway track yet. And just look at the mess they are making . . .

 

[Mike Tee]

^^^^ and the cost is rising astronomically.

[magnetman]

The aqueduct near Harefield is impressive. 

 

 

It will be a strange day when/if HS2 gets shelved. 

My best friend from school's dad was Mr HS2 (Jim Steer). I remember his house.  Loads of glass cabinets with model trains. Some people are very keen on rail. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by magnetman
typo

[jonathanA]

complete waste of money/time/effort the sooner someone has the balls to pull the plug on HS2 the better. 

 

ETA - a very kind offer by the Op to pass on his spare bottles.  Based on the scaremongering about 3.9/4.5Kg dumpy's I found a couple on Ebay - think I paid about £12 for two, but some people were asking £50+ for empty bottles - crazy. 

 

I was thinking I might look at refilling the smaller ones, but realised that the popular 6KG size is perfectly fine and for the amount of use I get its not worth messing about,  so swapped one for a 6KG bottle at my local dealer without problem and still have a 4.5Kg butane (MT) if anyone wants to swap for a bigger bottle. 

Edited August 21, 2023 by jonathanA

[sigsegv]

5 hours ago, Ronaldo47 said:

There was an item on the radio at the weekend about the government's proposed introduction of a compulsory returnable deposit on drink cans and bottles.

Works great in Germany. 25c for cans, glass bottles are something like 7c iirc, and plastic bottles somewhere in between. If you've got a 20er crate of empty beer bottles, you also get the deposit (Pfand auf Deutsch) back for the crate and the bottles. Rarely see empties littering the street or parks, even on very sunny days when people are out getting drunk and having fun. Plenty of less well-off people make a not tiny amount of money collecting people's empties at the large parks, train stations etc (at least in Berlin)

[Ken X]

I understand at one time Grolsch had a deposit scheme on their bottles in the UK.  Rumour has it the bods at RAF Odiham were regularly popping over to Germany and coming back with crates full of empty bottles.  Apparently they almost did for the local pub due to the amount they were cashing in. 😲.

[Ex Brummie]

On 20/08/2023 at 13:09, Peanut said:

Quite correct Sir.

Too much truanting.

 

The French don't seem to follow all the rules all the time.

 

like many in the EU, they will follow the rules they like but ignore those they don't.  

When we were in the EU, we would accept all and employ an army of civil servants to enforce them.

Take the regulation about full automotive tax on propulsion fuel. Our suppliers were saddled with the paperwork and extra admin. In Ireland, boaters were asked to pay what they considered they owed when renewing their licences.

[Peanut]

 

22 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

like many in the EU, they will follow the rules they like but ignore those they don't.  

When we were in the EU, we would accept all and employ an army of civil servants to enforce them.

Take the regulation about full automotive tax on propulsion fuel. Our suppliers were saddled with the paperwork and extra admin. In Ireland, boaters were asked to pay what they considered they owed when renewing their licences.

Truanting, strikes again, or just plain ignorance, apparently Calor hails from the Netherlands, nice, honest, hard-working citizens of the EU, taking a laissez-faire attitude to their business and economy. Fleece the customers.

[ditchcrawler]

You are not the only one with some to spare 

[Ronaldo47]

On 20/08/2023 at 20:59, magnetman said:

 

"A cartel is an organization formed by producers to limit competition and increase prices by creating artificial shortages through low production quotas, stockpiling, and marketing quotas"

 

I don't think that definition is strictly correct. One of the famous cartels, that certainly limited competition and led to increased prices of lamp bulbs, was the one set up by European light bulb manufacturers in the early days of the electric lighting industry.  I understand they just agreed not to sell items below a certain price, but not by creating artificial shortages etc. 

 

Rather the cartel was established to provide order out of anarchy after Edison and Swan's patents were held to be invalid or unenforceable in virtually all European countries other than the UK.  This resulted in savage price cutting by lamp bulb manufacturers and the consequential manufacture of poor quality lamp bulbs which had short lives. The cartel allowed manufacturers to make better-quality bulbs that lasted and could be sold at a profit by effectively removing the cheap inferior rubbish from the market.  

Edited August 22, 2023 by Ronaldo47
typos

[Oddjob]

On 20/08/2023 at 23:38, MtB said:

 

Amazing! Are they delivered in a Tesla, too?

 

 

 

When I was a 11year old back in the 60’s I did a milk round on weekends on Sunday that was 1200 pints the milkman his son or daughter and me. My pay was 2 shillings a day 10 pence in todays money lol milkman today I bet doesn’t do 1200 pints in a week

[Ogwr]

On 21/08/2023 at 10:09, Ronaldo47 said:

My local off licence used to take any bottles, but the one at my cousins' used to rubber stamp the labels of the bottles they sold and would only accept back bottles with their own stamp.

 

There was an item on the radio at the weekend about the government's proposed introduction of a compulsory returnable deposit on drink cans and bottles. Apparently the industry believe that the scheme will cost at least ten times as much as the government's estimate, and would result in a significant increase in prices.  

I managed a Corona factory manufacturing returnable  bottles  and it was 10p deposit per bottle.. The trade killed off by the demise of the corner shop. The supermarkets being unwilling to devote store space for returns. Which is why government recycle schemes will face an uphill battle. I do remember  going into a carrefour in France in the 80;s that had a hatch in the entrance where they paid deposits on the vin rouge Lltre bottle returns.  

[Nightwatch]

I remember 3d a bottle.

[IanD]

On 22/08/2023 at 17:33, Ronaldo47 said:

I don't think that definition is strictly correct. One of the famous cartels, that certainly limited competition and led to increased prices of lamp bulbs, was the one set up by European light bulb manufacturers in the early days of the electric lighting industry.  I understand they just agreed not to sell items below a certain price, but not by creating artificial shortages etc. 

 

Rather the cartel was established to provide order out of anarchy after Edison and Swan's patents were held to be invalid or unenforceable in virtually all European countries other than the UK.  This resulted in savage price cutting by lamp bulb manufacturers and the consequential manufacture of poor quality lamp bulbs which had short lives. The cartel allowed manufacturers to make better-quality bulbs that lasted and could be sold at a profit by effectively removing the cheap inferior rubbish from the market.  

You do know that the "light bulb cartel" also secretly agreed between themselves to design bulbs to only last 1000 hours typically, so people had to spend money replacing them regularly?

 

They could have easily doubled or trebled this with negligible impact on light output, but that would have made them less money...

[Momac]

On 20/08/2023 at 20:16, magnetman said:

 do you ever see reasonably priced bottled gas at boatyards? 

I wouldn't know about 13kg Propane but the bottle gas I use on the boat is at less cost at the marina this year   compared the caravan shop which is reversal of what it was a couple of years ago.  

But even the lower price is not reasonably priced.

[ditchcrawler]

51 minutes ago, IanD said:

You do know that the "light bulb cartel" also secretly agreed between themselves to design bulbs to only last 1000 hours typically, so people had to spend money replacing them regularly?

 

They could have easily doubled or trebled this with negligible impact on light output, but that would have made them less money...

Isn't the same true for LED lighting

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Isn't the same true for LED lighting

No.

[Jon57]

3 hours ago, Nightwatch said:

I remember 3d a bottle.

I remember taking soda syphones back to the local off licence. Can't remember how much I got. But it was a good little earner as the pop factory was at the end of our garden. No cctv then 😜