Help understanding energy systems

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

Bear in mind that even one the days they dont move their boat, many people will still run their engine anyway for hot water (you could get it by heating water on the stove, but that takes longer), so in those cases it might make sense to make sure you have a decent engine alternator to do the charging.

 

This touches on another point. Hot water from an instantaneous gas water heater such as a Morco is utterly, totally BRILLIANT.

 

BUT... since the RCD came in, new boats have not been allowed to have open flued appliances so you only find Morcos on pre-1998 boats generally. And on post-1998 boats where the owner doesn't care about the arbitrary, meaningless bureaucratic tick-box lists that so many other boaters care so deeply about. 

 

Can you guess which camp I fall into?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bod]

2 hours ago, Mr.T said:

Thanks. Totally get the argument for buying second hand. I’m not looking at spending anywhere near 200k on a boat. From the second hand boats I’ve seen online, they’re not that much cheaper than what I expect to pay for a new one. A new one being a sailaway lined as mentioned, I’ll finish most of the internal myself. But alot of the second hand boats don’t come with the energy systems that I would want so that would obviously cost to upgrade the boat. Fully understand that it might not be for me and I will lose some money if buying new, but I would expect a new boat with solar, lithium batteries etc to still sell for a good price.

As you approach your first lock with a mixture of trepidation/petrified, it matters not what energy system you have, provided it works!

Many marinas will have "Winter moorings" available, with electric hook ups, meaning no engine running at all, whilst moored up.  Old flooded lead acid systems, may end the winter in better condition, than they were in mid summer.

There are ways of "learning" boating, without spending a fortune, on something you don't know if you will like it.

 

Bod.

 

[Mr.T]

15 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Yes, that's right. 

Once we get to October the solar yield drops off, and I start finding I have to run the engine every other day to add some extra charge. 

By mid November, the solar in my case is so low that all I get is a minor top up from it. 

On some sunny winter days, IF the side of the boat is facing south, I can double my solar yield by tilting up the panels, but that's not common. 

Because I only need engine charging on about 100 days of the year, I dont mind running the engine to generate the charge- and more so because I've increased the charging capacity, so I can now charge the batteries at 70-80 amps. The significance of that is that the charging is mostly done within an hour per day, with a little bit added by the solar. 

If I was charging at say 30 or 40 amps and so had to run the engine for two hours or more each day, I would buy a 2kw genny instead, so as to save the wear and tear on the engine, plus extra servicing etc. 

Bear in mind that even one the days they dont move their boat, many people will still run their engine anyway for hot water (you could get it by heating water on the stove, but that takes longer), so in those cases it might make sense to make sure you have a decent engine alternator to do the charging.

My engine alternator couldn't be easily upgraded because of the crank, so make sure the boat has a decent alternator, as Nicks said above.

Many alternators that are rated at 100 amps can't deliver even half of that current on a prolonged charge, without seriously overheating.   

 

Thanks, your system sounds actually really efficient and makes me feel better about getting through winters on board. In terms of engines, I’ve heard that beta 43 is a good one. Showing that I know nothing about boats again, does this engine come with a decent enough alternator or would I have to upgrade?

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, MtB said:

BUT... since the RCD came in, new boats have not been allowed to have open flued appliances

 

 

Are instaneous water heaters classed as "unattended appliances" ?

 

As you know, irresepctive of the RCD, the BSS does allow the installation of open flued water heaters.

 

[magnetman]

Washing and water is another interesting thing with boats. 

 

I do think the lavatory is the main issue on boats but availability of lots of water is quite an obvious one as well. 

 

In a house, I believe, one can turn on the tap and if one were to forget it there will still be water coming out after a number of hours. 

 

Tank stored water is a whole nother kettle of fish. In a Very Real Way. 

 

Filtration can work but you really have to be onto it and have a very very well set up system for this to work on a canal. 

 

So yeah. 

 

Be unconcerned with the electrics. 

 

Be concerned with the lavatory and the fresh water supply. 

 

And the heating. Definitely have solid fuel heating ! 

 

 

[Mr.T]

3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Washing and water is another interesting thing with boats. 

 

I do think the lavatory is the main issue on boats but availability of lots of water is quite an obvious one as well. 

 

In a house, I believe, one can turn on the tap and if one were to forget it there will still be water coming out after a number of hours. 

 

Tank stored water is a whole nother kettle of fish. In a Very Real Way. 

 

Filtration can work but you really have to be onto it and have a very very well set up system for this to work on a canal. 

 

So yeah. 

 

Be unconcerned with the electrics. 

 

Be concerned with the lavatory and the fresh water supply. 

 

And the heating. Definitely have solid fuel heating ! 

 

 

I’m definitely concerned with the loo situation. I like the idea of composting but that’s not ok anymore so as I’ve been told earlier the other options are cassette or pump out?

I didn’t realise there would be an issue with fresh water though. So from what you’ve said am I right in assuming that the water from canal water point is not drinkable and has to be filtered?
I’m open to a solid fuel stove but the storage of logs/coal puts me off slightly. Diesel stoves sounded abit easier and can be left on without having to do anything to it?

[nicknorman]

We just passed this boat, sorry for the bad photo but I was late getting the camera out. Looks a lot worse from the front.

 

 

What’s wrong with it? Well, obviously built by someone who knows nothing about the canals. Leisure boat shapes have evolved from traditional boat shapes that were built to suit the working environment, - the shape of locks, bridges, tunnels etc.

 

The boat in the pic, which was a sail away still in primer and not fitted out yet, has no tumblehome at the front, and very tall. Tumblehome is the jargon word for gently sloping-in sides above the gunnels, such that the boat is narrower at the top. This allows it to fit through low arched bridges and tunnels - most bridges on the canals are arched rather than flat topped. So this boat gains a few inches of internal width at head height (a pretty useless space) at the expense of being prone to scrape and crash into bridge arches. Clearly built by someone who was probably ok at welding but didn’t know why boats are shaped the way they are. Someone is going to spend a long time fitting out, and then discover that it’s fundamentally flawed as it’s a pain to cruise it on the narrow canals of the midlands. And of course because the accepted aesthetic is to have tumblehome, it looks pretty ugly!

Edited August 10, 2023 by nicknorman

[Tony1]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

Be unconcerned with the electrics. 

 

Be concerned with the lavatory and the fresh water supply. 

 

And the heating. Definitely have solid fuel heating ! 

 

 

 

Heaven forfend that I should cause friction Mr M, but I think one has to have some degree of concern for matters electrical when buying/speccing a boat, because it could cost a lot of money afterwards to put things into an acceptable state. 

For example, you probably consider me to be the most effete and bourgeois scoundrel who ever lived, because I run my fridge throughout the winter (instead of storing beer etc in a box in the cratch like a normal caveman would). 

But there's the rub- some of us maniacs will insist on hanging on to some last vestiges of civilisation and luxury, amid the endless mud and the grey skies of winter- and it may be the OP is one of that sort. 

On a vaguely related note, I recall hearing of a chap who specced the largest calorifier available on a new build, and only afterwards realised that this meant he would have to heat up a much larger volume of water on a daily basis, and thus use a lot more energy (from whatever source).

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, Mr.T said:

How would you know if I know what it’s like to work in a confined space, my friend?

 

I think the problem Tracy is referring to relates to manipulating 8' x 4' sheet material in a space about 6' wide and maybe 6'2 2" tall. Once you get bulkheads in, the length of any space starts to reduce. Then you need to consider secure storage for your tools and materials, plus getting them to the boat. It is much easier if you have secure storage and a dry work area with power ashore, close to the boat. FWIW I did the engineering side of fitting put new GRP cruiser hulls on the Thames for some years and even with the boatyard facilities, skilled and experience craftsmen, it always took longer than we planned. I would suggest you should allow at ;east three times longer than you think it will take and five years part-time would not be exceptional.

[magnetman]

5 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

I’m definitely concerned with the loo situation. I like the idea of composting but that’s not ok anymore so as I’ve been told earlier the other options are cassette or pump out?

I didn’t realise there would be an issue with fresh water though. So from what you’ve said am I right in assuming that the water from canal water point is not drinkable and has to be filtered?
I’m open to a solid fuel stove but the storage of logs/coal puts me off slightly. Diesel stoves sounded abit easier and can be left on without having to do anything to it?

 

No I didn't mean tap supplies. 

 

Its just that you have to spend a lot of time there if you want to use a lot of water. 

 

People in houses can just turn on thr tap and water comes out in endless volumes. 

 

I have two boats. One is off grid on the country estate and the other is on a fully serviced mooring in inner London. 

 

The latter boat has a lot of fresh water availability. 

 

 

[Tony1]

7 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

I’m definitely concerned with the loo situation. I like the idea of composting but that’s not ok anymore so as I’ve been told earlier the other options are cassette or pump out?

 

 

Just on this - some people have hung on to their compost toilets (a more accurate name would be 'separating toilets'), and installed fast-composting tubs/boxes on their boat (usually cratch or stern). There's one called a 'Hotbox', I believe.

Its not that these toilets are banned, you just cant put the solid waste into CRT bins, so you have to compost it yourself.

There might even be a thread about composting toilets....

 

As for the water, don't worry. I've been drinking water from the water point taps for several years now without filtering, and I've hardly gone mad at all. 

 

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, Mr.T said:

Many thanks, could you go abit further into the unforeseen issues?

Fully understand that gas for cooking makes sense now, especially in winter.

And absolutely, if I could find the exact boat (or near enough) that I want second hand and was only a few years old, then I would probably go down that route.

 

The unforeseen issues on a new narrowboat will range from little things like doors and draws  jambing because it was fitted out ashore and the hull has altered its shape when afloat, to very serious ones like underwater welds made good with body filler etc.  The boat being under or oversize, banana shape, or both sides not being symmetrical. Undersized cables because the boat fitter was convinced he knew more than the people who specified the cable size, items fitted not being as per the agreed contract, plus general poor practice in the fitting of the engine, fuel system, gas and electrical systems. then there is the issue of the builder's self certifying the boat is RCD/RCR complaint when it is not.

 

You getting real lemon is less likely, but they do happen, it is much more likely that you will end up with a host of less severe problems that niggle away and spoil your ownership of a new boat. (Woodworm on bamboo flooring anyone!)

[Hudds Lad]

13 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

We just passed this boat, sorry for the bad photo but I was late getting the camera out. Looks a lot worse from the front.

 

 

What’s wrong with it? Well, obviously built by someone who knows nothing about the canals. Leisure boat shapes have evolved from traditional boat shapes that were built to suit the working environment, - the shape of locks, bridges, tunnels etc.

 

The boat in the pic, which was a sail away still in primer and not fitted out yet, has no tumblehome at the front, and very tall. Tumblehome is the jargon word for gently sloping-in sides above the gunnels, such that the boat is narrower at the top. This allows it to fit through low arched bridges and tunnels - most bridges on the canals are arched rather than flat topped. So this boat gains a few inches of internal width at head height (a pretty useless space) at the expense of being prone to scrape and crash into bridge arches. Clearly built by someone who was probably ok at welding but didn’t know why boats are shaped the way they are. Someone is going to spend a long time fitting out, and then discover that it’s fundamentally flawed as it’s a pain to cruise it on the narrow canals of the midlands. And of course because the accepted aesthetic is to have tumblehome, it looks pretty ugly!

That boat has been there a while, CRT zip-tied a notice to it last year, it's still there.

With the height out of the water at the back, i'm not even sure it has an engine.

[roland elsdon]

One of the craziest ‘professional’ jobs I encountered was the 150000 boat whose batteries went flat every night.

 

He had just replaced a very big inverter as it appeared to have a high drain constantly.

 

The new one had a drain too.

A £6 meter evidenced a continual load when on.

Eventually he was persuaded to destroy an apparently blind cabinet in the engine room.

Behind it wired into the 240 circuit ( before the fuse box) was a heavy duty battery charger always on.

It charged the bow thruster battery through a 50 ft length of electric string.

[dmr]

27 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

We just passed this boat, sorry for the bad photo but I was late getting the camera out. Looks a lot worse from the front.

 

 

What’s wrong with it? Well, obviously built by someone who knows nothing about the canals. Leisure boat shapes have evolved from traditional boat shapes that were built to suit the working environment, - the shape of locks, bridges, tunnels etc.

 

The boat in the pic, which was a sail away still in primer and not fitted out yet, has no tumblehome at the front, and very tall. Tumblehome is the jargon word for gently sloping-in sides above the gunnels, such that the boat is narrower at the top. This allows it to fit through low arched bridges and tunnels - most bridges on the canals are arched rather than flat topped. So this boat gains a few inches of internal width at head height (a pretty useless space) at the expense of being prone to scrape and crash into bridge arches. Clearly built by someone who was probably ok at welding but didn’t know why boats are shaped the way they are. Someone is going to spend a long time fitting out, and then discover that it’s fundamentally flawed as it’s a pain to cruise it on the narrow canals of the midlands. And of course because the accepted aesthetic is to have tumblehome, it looks pretty ugly!

 

The grey one at the other end looks rather nice, I think you should have taken a picture of that one 😀

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

The grey one at the other end looks rather nice, I think you should have taken a picture of that one 😀

 

I was thinking that too!!

 

So I took one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LadyG]

19 hours ago, Mr.T said:

I had planned for a composting loo but I’ve heard that the CRT don’t want people doing that anymore. Someone said about an incinerator the other day which sounded interesting. But no I haven’t decided on the loo yet, what would be your advice?

Neither.

Most people have a cassete with at least one spare. 

I don't know about pumpout systems, not so simple, I have a tank but I dont use it, its broken.

I use a Thetford cassette  system. I add some blue mixed with a diluted laundry liquid every a.m. ( not too noxious) 

[Tony Brooks]

9 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Neither.

Most people have a cassete with at least one spare. 

I don't know about pumpout systems, not so simple, I have a tank but I dont use it, its broken.

I use a Thetford cassette  system. I add some blue mixed with a diluted laundry liquid every a.m. ( not too noxious) 

 

A decent, well vented drop through toilet is arguably as simple as a cassette, but without the need for the boater to carry waste around and empty it.

[Mr.T]

52 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think the problem Tracy is referring to relates to manipulating 8' x 4' sheet material in a space about 6' wide and maybe 6'2 2" tall. Once you get bulkheads in, the length of any space starts to reduce. Then you need to consider secure storage for your tools and materials, plus getting them to the boat. It is much easier if you have secure storage and a dry work area with power ashore, close to the boat. FWIW I did the engineering side of fitting put new GRP cruiser hulls on the Thames for some years and even with the boatyard facilities, skilled and experience craftsmen, it always took longer than we planned. I would suggest you should allow at ;east three times longer than you think it will take and five years part-time would not be exceptional.

That’s fair enough but the boat will already be lined so I shouldn’t need to have any large sheets left to do, unless I’m missing something? I get the point that getting a kitchen and sofa in requires abit of prior planning and thought. 
And after all the comments I’ve received on here, I have reduced my expectations of getting it done in a month or two. Thanks

[LadyG]

21 hours ago, system 4-50 said:

I disagree strongly.  Bow lockers for gas are a pain.

Not if the gas locker is accessible from the welldeck.

If you erect a fixed cratch, well thats going to create a problem 

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Mr.T said:

That’s fair enough but the boat will already be lined so I shouldn’t need to have any large sheets left to do, unless I’m missing something? I get the point that getting a kitchen and sofa in requires abit of prior planning and thought. 
And after all the comments I’ve received on here, I have reduced my expectations of getting it done in a month or two. Thanks

 

I would expect you to need 8x4 sheets to make up storage cupboards and the bed carcasses, unless you cut them all at home and only fettle the pieces on site.  Kitchen and similar units from the DIY sheds will almost certainly need cutting about, so the backs fit the profile of the hull lining and cabin side. When fitting anything to the cabin side you will probably need to make a template and that needs checking against every such fitting point.

[LadyG]

On 09/08/2023 at 15:04, robtheplod said:

We have 800W solar fitted last Jan so yet to go through a full Winter, but so far its been enough for us........ be interesting to see when it tails off this autumn?

I have a bit less solar (two flat 275W) and I found that while my usage was minimalist, my intake varied due to solar, and travel. Worse case scenario I was running the engine ten hours during the week and once, only once I had to run it for eight hours on a weekend.

With the benefit of hindsight, and starting from scratch I would research for better panels, tiltable.

I want to keep the roof clear to allow for centreline rope handling.

And yes, lithium sounds like a great idea for a newbuild .

I started with about 600ah agm batteries, they seem to be holding up, (four years) but I expect I will have to replace them in the future.

Edited August 10, 2023 by LadyG

[system 4-50]

3 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

If you are taking that attitude, to hell with you, make all the same mistakes that we all made when we started out and the best of luck. I'm out of here, no time for the new boater know it all anymore.

Are you in pain?  Why so grumpy today?

[Mr.T]

Thanks all, it’s been recommended a few times to take a walk down the canal path to have a look at some boats and maybe chat to some people. My local canal is the Basingstoke and there’s not many boats on there so my next nearest is the Kennet & Avon which is where I would likely be based. Anyone know any hotspots between Newbury and Reading where I’m likely to find some boaters?

Or maybe some members on here are local and wouldn’t mind me taking a look at their boat?

Edited August 10, 2023 by Mr.T

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

 

Just on this - some people have hung on to their compost toilets (a more accurate name would be 'separating toilets'), and installed fast-composting tubs/boxes on their boat (usually cratch or stern). There's one called a 'Hotbox', I believe.

Its not that these toilets are banned, you just cant put the solid waste into CRT bins, so you have to compost it yourself.

There might even be a thread about composting toilets....

 

As for the water, don't worry. I've been drinking water from the water point taps for several years now without filtering, and I've hardly gone mad at all. 

 

There is a boat near me with several black dustbin size boxes sitting in the welldeck, it's not a good look. Forget "composting" it's a misnomer.