Gas free boat

[Andyaero]

Thought I'd made my mind up to stay with gas, but a few of the answers are to questions I didn't pose......

I did originally state.......

 

"I'd be a continual cruiser with a minimum 1.2kW solar and either lithium or lead carbon batteries (opinions and a suggested minimum Ah?), would this require a 3kW or 5kW inverter? Size of alternators?"

 

Solar may be 1.6kW, depends what we can fit on a 60' with a couple of medium sized skylights and 5 vents.

I'm not trying to do anything on the cheap, although I can't afford a Rolls Royce boat or an all electric £200k+ new build. I'd rather use the extra £30k enjoying boatlife with an engine that'll probably out live me anyway. As I said in the first post it was more to have a space saving and the convenience of one less fuel (we are having a multifuel stove). 

 

I guess there's a reason that the majority of boats for years have used diesel engines and gas cooking, I'm sure that'll do fine for the next 25, let's not go down the government banning diesel propulsion rabbit hole.......not in my lifetime.

Ta

 

 

[IanD]

43 minutes ago, Andyaero said:

Thought I'd made my mind up to stay with gas, but a few of the answers are to questions I didn't pose......

I did originally state.......

 

"I'd be a continual cruiser with a minimum 1.2kW solar and either lithium or lead carbon batteries (opinions and a suggested minimum Ah?), would this require a 3kW or 5kW inverter? Size of alternators?"

 

Solar may be 1.6kW, depends what we can fit on a 60' with a couple of medium sized skylights and 5 vents.

I'm not trying to do anything on the cheap, although I can't afford a Rolls Royce boat or an all electric £200k+ new build. I'd rather use the extra £30k enjoying boatlife with an engine that'll probably out live me anyway. As I said in the first post it was more to have a space saving and the convenience of one less fuel (we are having a multifuel stove). 

 

I guess there's a reason that the majority of boats for years have used diesel engines and gas cooking, I'm sure that'll do fine for the next 25, let's not go down the government banning diesel propulsion rabbit hole.......not in my lifetime.

Ta

 

 

 

If you're going electric with engine/alternator charging I'd strongly suggest LFP not lead-carbon. LC are a lot more expensive than LA but reports on their claimed longevity and immunity to partial SoC have not been good, possibly because the data sheet cycle life still specifies proper regular equalisation and few people do this. Also they still have the tail current issue of LA, not quite so bad but still needing long engine running times to get to 100% SoC. With LFP you don't have to worry about any of this, cycle them anywhere you want between 10% SoC and 90% SoC and you'll be fine.

 

If you can get 1.6kW of solar in that'll yield about 6kWh/day in summer, and you need at least this big a usable battery bank to fill in the sun-free gaps -- that's 500Ah usable at 12V (625Ah nominal at 80% DoD), probably still a bit small but will cost you about £2000 (Fogstar?). For an all-electric kitchen (induction hob, electric oven, kettle, toaster, microwave...) you need at least a 5kW nominal inverter (4kW real), a Victron Quattro or similar will be another couple of grand. But then this might force you to a bigger battery bank to keep up with the current demand.

 

If you're going to charge this up with alternators in a sensible time you're going to need some pretty hefty ones, probably 2 high-current automotive ones (e.g. 170A) or a single mega-alternator from Balmar or similar. To charge LFP with these you'll also need a good external alternator controller like the Wakespeed WS500. That's all going to add another couple of grand.

 

At these power levels you'd be a lot better going for a 24V domestic system not a 12V one, the components are cheaper and cables are far thinner -- things like LED lights are also easily available at 24V.

 

Including all this and the solar and the MPPT controllers and all the other bits needed, I guess you're looking at maybe £10k or a bit more for the electrical system.

 

If you want to add an onboard cocooned diesel generator for charging instead of the engine, add the same again.

Edited June 14, 2023 by IanD

[blackrose]

22 hours ago, Andyaero said:

I fancy the idea of gas free, basically to have one less energy cost on board 

 

 

Although LPG has increased significantly in price in recent years, a 13kg bottle lasts for ages and the cost is actually very low. I go through about 2 bottles a year, that's less than 100 quid. I think all the additional gear you're going to need  to install on your boat to cook is going to represent a long payback time.

 

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by blackrose

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Although LPG has increased significantly in price in recent years, a 13kg bottle lasts for ages and the cost is actually very low. I go through about 2 bottles a year, that's less than 100 quid. I think all the additional gear you're going to need  to install on your boat to cook is going to represent a long payback time.

 

 

Certainly longer than the lifetime of the boat, very possibly longer than the lifetime of the poster. Maybe even longer than the lifetime of the UK canals, or even the human race given climate change... 😉

[Andyaero]

I'll stick with gas then 😄

 

[blackrose]

Gas is great. It's got a bad name on boats but if you install a safe system you'll be glad to have it.

[cheesegas]

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

Although LPG has increased significantly in price in recent years, a 13kg bottle lasts for ages and the cost is actually very low. I go through about 2 bottles a year, that's less than 100 quid. I think all the additional gear you're going to need  to install on your boat to cook is going to represent a long payback time.

If you look at just the LPG costs you'll save from installing lithium batteries then yes, it'll be many many many years until you break even. However, if you're a cc'er with a decent amount of solar already and don't winter in a marina with power, the payback time is something like 6 years when I worked out how much diesel I saved, and less engine services. Plus, it's so much more convienient to run the engine/generator once a week rather than daily!

[IanD]

13 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

If you look at just the LPG costs you'll save from installing lithium batteries then yes, it'll be many many many years until you break even. However, if you're a cc'er with a decent amount of solar already and don't winter in a marina with power, the payback time is something like 6 years when I worked out how much diesel I saved, and less engine services. Plus, it's so much more convienient to run the engine/generator once a week rather than daily!

The debate wasn't just about installing equivalent drop-in lithium batteries in place of LA (which are A Good Idea), it was about installing everything needed to go gas-free and "cook electric" which is far more costly...

[cheesegas]

Just now, IanD said:

The debate wasn't just about installing equivalent drop-in lithium batteries in place of LA (which are A Good Idea), it was about installing everything needed to go gas-free and "cook electric" which is far more costly...

True, I was just mentioning that if you do the changes needed for a gas-free boat, it'll save money in areas other than LPG.

[IanD]

12 hours ago, cheesegas said:

True, I was just mentioning that if you do the changes needed for a gas-free boat, it'll save money in areas other than LPG.

Of course, but the payback period will still be huge -- saving money isn't the reason to do it, quite the opposite, what you're doing is paying more for a better boating experience -- assuming you think being gas-free is better, of course... 😉

 

Exactly the same justification as for hybrid/electric boats but on a smaller scale. And in both cases other people will think the benefit isn't worth the cost, and that's an equally valid opinion... 🙂

[Slim]

On 14/06/2023 at 08:30, Mad Harold said:

You might consider an Origo type meths hob.

Had one on my last boat, a very simple hob. 

Drawbacks are, fumes set the CO2 alarm off so windows need to be open, and Meths is expensive.

I had an Origo meths hob on my first yacht. Pain in the #r#e from start to finish.   

[BilgePump]

8 hours ago, Slim said:

I had an Origo meths hob on my first yacht. Pain in the #r#e from start to finish.   

What were you doing wrong? Always fancied one and one came in a boat a couple of years ago. It's great. Think of it as a posh Trangia!

[robtheplod]

Seems converting to electric cooking etc is like all other conversions - cars/houses etc.... massive outlay with little return, replacing something that was more efficient/convenient and often cheaper to run. The rush for electric is an odd thing isn't it?

[MtB]

1 hour ago, robtheplod said:

Seems converting to electric cooking etc is like all other conversions - cars/houses etc.... massive outlay with little return, replacing something that was more efficient/convenient and often cheaper to run. The rush for electric is an odd thing isn't it?

 

Not really. Have you not heard of global warming? Caused by burning fossil fuels?

 

Or climate change we have to call it now, as the public is too thick to differentiate between weather and climate, apparently.

[IanD]

2 hours ago, robtheplod said:

Seems converting to electric cooking etc is like all other conversions - cars/houses etc.... massive outlay with little return, replacing something that was more efficient/convenient and often cheaper to run. The rush for electric is an odd thing isn't it?

Nothing is cheaper, easier and more convenient than carrying on using fossil fuels for all these purposes, which is why many people and industries want to carry on doing it.

 

The only teeny weeny problem is that doing this is slowly destroying the planet. But if you don't care about what happens within the lifetimes of our children, carry on as now... 😞

[ditchcrawler]

Interesting program about electric cars on TV the other night, A manufacturer (cant remember which one) said there is no one developing new IC cars now, they are all working on electric, he didn't mention hydrogen 

 

[IanD]

7 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Interesting program about electric cars on TV the other night, A manufacturer (cant remember which one) said there is no one developing new IC cars now, they are all working on electric, he didn't mention hydrogen 

 

Because nobody is seriously considering hydrogen for cars except a few diehards like Toyota and BMW, who don't want to admit that they got it wrong and wasted a lot of money going down this particular blind alley -- and are both now backing EVs, reluctantly in the case of BMW and belatedly in the case of Toyota... 😉

[LadyG]

On 13/06/2023 at 23:33, Andyaero said:

So, how feasible is a gas free boat? 

I'm a beginner, beginning the process of a new build. I fancy the idof gas free, basically to have one less energy cost on board and extra storage. If gas would only be used for cooking, can an old skool 42hp diesel powered boat run gas free with electric cooking, induction hob?

Thinking out loud, I'd be a continual cruiser with a minimum 1.2kW solar and either lithium or lead carbon batteries (opinions and a suggested minimum Ah?), would this require a 3kW or 5kW inverter? Size of alternators? 

Be gentle.

Cheers

 

I think we all have thoughts about boats, but practicalities overtake dreams.

I would start with a power audit.

Build  a system which fits your needs. 

The plan is normally to use as little power as possible, you have to generate your own and it is not easy, unless you have a great deal of money for this fit out, and if that is the case, why  DIY, buy something second hand and start cc ing. If you want to fit out your own boat set aside three years, plus or minus X years 

 

 

[IanD]

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

I think we all have thoughts about boats, but practicalities overtake dreams.

I would start with a power audit.

Build  a system which fits your needs. 

The plan is normally to use as little power as possible, you have to generate your own and it is not easy, unless you have a great deal of money for this fit out, and if that is the case, why  DIY, buy something second hand and start cc ing. If you want to fit out your own boat set aside three years, plus or minus X years 

 

The OP did say he was in the process of specifying a new build, so it seems unlikely that he'll want to DIY and spend three years fitting it out himself... 😉

 

In this case anything from a traditional low-electrical-power gas/diesel/stove boat via gas-free diesel/genny all the way to full electric/hybrid is possible, it all depends how much he wants to spend.

 

If money is tight, the traditional route is the best option, which is why most people go this way. Cocooned diesel generators are *expensive*... 😞

[Andyaero]

Whilst we're on the subject.......I need to get a 13kg green patio gas for the BBQ, probably won't use it all this summer, is this the same stuff as used on a boat?

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Andyaero said:

Whilst we're on the subject.......I need to get a 13kg green patio gas for the BBQ, probably won't use it all this summer, is this the same stuff as used on a boat?

 

Yes the gas is the same but the BBQ regulator fitting is a 27mm 'click-on' whilst the boat is a "POL screw in'" fitting. (So you cannot use a boat cylinder on your BBQ unnless you can change the BBQ reulator)

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, Andyaero said:

Whilst we're on the subject.......I need to get a 13kg green patio gas for the BBQ, probably won't use it all this summer, is this the same stuff as used on a boat?

 

I don't think so. "Green Patio Gas" is not a real gas, it's an invention of the marketing gurus. I think it is a blend of propane and butane and if this turns out to be correct, it is not the same as "boat gas" (which is propane in the red bottles, or butane in the blue). 

 

And as Alan points out, the bottle connection is different.  

 

The interesting thing is when it comes to the gas training we gas bods do, "patio gas" is totally and utterly ignored in the syllabus! 

 

 

[Ronaldo47]

Butane/propane mixture is available in small cannisters for use in blowlamps and the like. My understanding is that the mixture allows use in sub-zero temperatures where butane would remain liquid, and will last longer than a pure propane fill. Presumably that is why the mixture is used for patio heaters.

[David Mack]

7 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

Butane/propane mixture is available in small cannisters for use in blowlamps and the like. My understanding is that the mixture allows use in sub-zero temperatures where butane would remain liquid, and will last longer than a pure propane fill. Presumably that is why the mixture is used for patio heaters.

The whole idea of using patio heaters in sub-zero temperatures in an era of climate change...

[cuthound]

4 hours ago, MtB said:

 

I don't think so. "Green Patio Gas" is not a real gas, it's an invention of the marketing gurus. I think it is a blend of propane and butane and if this turns out to be correct, it is not the same as "boat gas" (which is propane in the red bottles, or butane in the blue). 

 

And as Alan points out, the bottle connection is different.  

 

The interesting thing is when it comes to the gas training we gas bods do, "patio gas" is totally and utterly ignored in the syllabus! 

 

 

 

I'd like to know how they know it's coloured  green, coz it burns with a blue flame... 🤣😅

 

Or is it only to be used on green coloured patios?