Gas free boat

[Andyaero]

So, how feasible is a gas free boat? 

I'm a beginner, beginning the process of a new build. I fancy the idea of gas free, basically to have one less energy cost on board and extra storage. If gas would only be used for cooking, can an old skool 42hp diesel powered boat run gas free with electric cooking, induction hob?

Thinking out loud, I'd be a continual cruiser with a minimum 1.2kW solar and either lithium or lead carbon batteries (opinions and a suggested minimum Ah?), would this require a 3kW or 5kW inverter? Size of alternators? 

Be gentle.

Cheers

 

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, Andyaero said:

So, how feasible is a gas free boat? 

 

Lots of boats are, but as usual massive compromises are necessary. A diesel hob, no oven cooking. Some people (like me) use their oven every day. Others, never. No grill either. How will you cook your gourmet kippers for breakfast?

 

If you only ever cook on a hob then yes, a whopper of an inverter and a mahoosive (technical term) battery bank will do the trick. But as always, the thing people overlook is how they will put the equally huge amounts of energy the hob takes BACK INTO the battery bank, whatever the chemistry. How will YOU do it?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by MtB

[Andyaero]

Thanks, maybe I should have asked.....

Is fully electric cooking, feasible on a diesel powered boat? 

I guess I'd replace the energy used by the fact I'd be continually cruising and using a lot of the traditional directional solar panels (not the pretty flexi things) and using batteries that let me use 80% capacity. I accept this isn't a year round solution. Alternatives....run the engine or sit on shore power for a couple of months?

[dmr]

Redundancy is a good thing so making everything dependant on electricity is a risk, especially in winter when there is no solar so you will be 100% dependant on the engine. Gas is one of the smaller bills on a full time liveaboard boat and a useful source of heat on a winters morning (cup of tea and toast puts a fair bit of heat into the boat).

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, dmr said:

Gas is one of the smaller bills on a full time liveaboard boat and a useful source of heat on a winters morning (cup of tea and toast puts a fair bit of heat into the boat).

 

Yes and if your solid fuel stove is busted or run out of solid fuel or just plain gorn out, it is amazing hot much heat lighting the oven and all four hob rings puts into the boat. 

 

Not that this is advisable.... 

 

 

[dmr]

4 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Yes and if your solid fuel stove is busted or run out of solid fuel or just plain gorn out, it is amazing hot much heat lighting the oven and all four hob rings puts into the boat. 

 

Not that this is advisable.... 

 

 

 

Stove dies down overnight, cold in the morning, all four rings on plus toast in the gorilla, and a fan on the worksurface next to the cooker and it all really helps.

Kettle on one ring, frying pan on another and a couple of spares , whats not advisable ? 😀

[MtB]

Just now, dmr said:

 

Stove dies down overnight, cold in the morning, all four rings on plus toast in the gorilla, and a fan on the worksurface next to the cooker and it all really helps.

Kettle on one ring, frying pan on another and a couple of spares , whats not advisable ? 😀

 

UPF! 

 

 

(I.e any food wrapped in plastic and containing at least one ingrediment you don't find in the typical galley cupboard.) 

 

 

[cheesegas]

Fine for 8 months of the year but not for the rest. I have 1kw of solar and 400ah of lithium - from March onwards I don't run the engine for power (in fact, my alternator has been turned off since April) and cook mainly (less in March, more April onwards) with an induction hob, electric kettle, toaster and a little air fryer. A 13kg gas bottle lasts 8 months as it's only used for hot water!

 

However, during winter it's not feasible. There isn't enough roof space on a narrowboat for sufficient solar to power the fridge, pumps, lighting in the darkest months, let alone spare enough power for electric cooking. You'd need to run the engine or generator a lot more, which is a very inefficient way to cook. Best to have both gas and electric options, I plan to get rid of my standard 4 burner gas hob and replace it with a 2 burner gas, 2 ring induction hob so I have both options throughout the year.

[MtB]

15 minutes ago, dmr said:

whats not advisable ?

 

But more seriously, a cooker is an unvented appliance, not designed for space heating. Intended for supervised use only. 50% of the products of combustion are water vapour which stays inside the boat. When you do as you describe on a cold morning, I bet the walls run with condensation....

 

 

 

 

[LadyG]

4 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Lots of boats are, but as usual massive compromises are necessary. A diesel hob, no oven cooking. Some people (like me) use their oven every day. Others, never. No grill either. How will you cook your gourmet kippers for breakfast?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kippers can be boiled then plated up, with a knob of butter.

I suppose and air fryer might do it.

Benefit of boiling is no smell , even better boil in the bag.

Only Manx kippers are worth the grilling treatment.

Edited June 14, 2023 by LadyG

[Jen-in-Wellies]

No one has mentioned range cookers yet. Either diesel powered, or solid fuel. This gives you an oven, as well as hobs and double as a heat source locally and for radiators and hot water. Solid fuel range cookers have a couple of centuries of use on canal boats. Disadvantages are that it gets very hot in summer, as the stove is pumping out heat for hours on end before and after doing the cooking. Possible 24 hours a day. Wasn't so much of a problem for working boat people, as they would be outside working pretty much any time they weren't either sleeping, or eating, but not so much for leisure use, especially over the last week! Also a single point of failure. If the range breaks, you lose heating as well as cooking.

@Andyaero hasn't said why he wants a gas free boat. The vast majority use gas for cooking, because it is fast, cheap and very convenient. Provided it is installed and maintained properly, the safety history is very good. When boats have gas explosions, it is because some one has done something dodgy.

[Tony Brooks]

7 hours ago, Andyaero said:

Thinking out loud, I'd be a continual cruiser with a minimum 1.2kW solar and either lithium or lead carbon batteries (opinions and a suggested minimum Ah?), would this require a 3kW or 5kW inverter? Size of alternators? 

 

I don't think that we can answer that because you need to do a power audit to see how much electricity you will use per 24 hours in a worse case scenario. We don't know what electrical equipment you will be using and for how long, only you know that so only you can do the calculations. From the power audit you can calculate a sensible battery size and also what charging sources will be needed in the depths of winter. Google "power audit" and there are some examples in both sets on notes on tb-training.co.uk

 

Forget about any solar charging during the winter, any you get look on as a bonus.

 

If you are starting from scratch and have the money, then forget any lead acid battery technology because it will make your recharging demands many times worse/longer. One of the inherently safe lithium technologies are far easier to charge (many are not inherently safe, so basically look at LiFePo4) BUT make sure your charge control meets all the requirements, especially if you are using charging equipment designed for lead acid batteries.

[Mad Harold]

You might consider an Origo type meths hob.

Had one on my last boat, a very simple hob. 

Drawbacks are, fumes set the CO2 alarm off so windows need to be open, and Meths is expensive.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

21 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

You might consider an Origo type meths hob.

Had one on my last boat, a very simple hob. 

Drawbacks are, fumes set the CO2 alarm off so windows need to be open, and Meths is expensive.

How easy/expensive is meths to find these days? I do like meths stoves. Use a Trangia for camping.

<pedant>CO alarm, not CO2</pedant>

[Col_T]

Google suggests meths available via Amazon, eBay, B & Q - these being the only places I checked.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Col_T said:

Google suggests meths available via Amazon, eBay, B & Q - these being the only places I checked.

 

Also, Camping shops / outdoor stores &  many (petrol station) garages, shops selling painting stuff, Screwfix, etc etc.

 

Ebay is expensive with 5 litres at £40+ (I paid £16 last year at a local petrol station)

 

If you only want small amounts Screwfix at £4.49 for 500ml is about the going rate, or £12 for 2 litres at Toolstation

 

Methylated Spirits High Quality Clear Meths 5L & 25L | eBay

 

No Nonsense Methylated Spirit 500ml - Screwfix

 

Methylated Spirit 2L | Toolstation

 

 

[BilgePump]

Our little local hardware shop sells 750ml bottles of meths for £3.50, which works out at about £4.67 per litre. Bought a couple last week as I was on the canal and cooking on the Trangia. Other boat has an Origo twin burner, like @Mad Harold suggests. I'm a big fan of it for proper hob cooking without gas or pressurised paraffin. Always tend to have some meths on the boats or in the car because it's also great for cleaning up Sikaflex and other jobs.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Mad Harold said:

You might consider an Origo type meths hob.

Had one on my last boat, a very simple hob. 

Drawbacks are, fumes set the CO2 alarm off so windows need to be open, and Meths is expensive.

 

 

Point of Order:

 

You have a CO2 alarm?! These are very rare and expensive, mainly because CO2 is not really much of a health risk to occupants of a boat. I suspect your monitor/alarm is actually for CO, which is a completely different kettle of fish, and lethal.

 

[PCSB]

As @dmr says above gas is the least expensive of bills. We are full time liveaboard and we spend a lot of time actually cruising . We do a lot of cooking onboard too. We used 4 13Kg gas bottles last year so approx £160 in cost. It does use storage space for the bottles but seems a small price to pay.

[IanD]

10 hours ago, Andyaero said:

So, how feasible is a gas free boat? 

I'm a beginner, beginning the process of a new build. I fancy the idea of gas free, basically to have one less energy cost on board and extra storage. If gas would only be used for cooking, can an old skool 42hp diesel powered boat run gas free with electric cooking, induction hob?

Thinking out loud, I'd be a continual cruiser with a minimum 1.2kW solar and either lithium or lead carbon batteries (opinions and a suggested minimum Ah?), would this require a 3kW or 5kW inverter? Size of alternators? 

Be gentle.

Cheers

 

 

It's feasible but *very* expensive if you're doing it just to get rid of gas for cooking -- you not only need a big inverter and battery bank but also lots of solar, and ideally an inbuilt diesel generator because it's unlikely that solar alone will meet your power needs in winter. Using alternators on a 42hp diesel to provide all the power for this is horribly inefficient (high fuel costs) and means running the engine for long periods (wear and tear, noise).

 

The only way it makes sense is if you're doing all this anyway in an electric/hybrid boat to provide propulsion, in which case gas-free cooking is "free" because you've already got all the infrastructure needed to support it -- in fact it's cheaper because you don't need to install gas.

 

However such a boat is an expensive luxury at the moment (because unlike EVs there's no charging network on the canals, so you absolutely need an onboard generator) for people with deep pockets who are willing to pay for silent cruising and/or lower CO2 emissions and/or having "house-level" 230V AC on board. There are more and more boats like this being built, though the temptation to cut corners to keep cost down is irresistible to many builders... 😞

 

To give you an idea of what's involved in doing this properly, my boat (when it's completed shortly...) includes:

 

48V 700Ah LFP battery bank with custom BMS

15kW continuous/25kW peak direct-drive PMAC motor and controller

10kVA inverter/charger

7kVA isolation transformer

2kW solar + MPPT controllers

9kVA cocooned diesel generator

10kW diesel boiler for heating/hot water

Domestic induction hob, electric oven, fridge, freezer, washer/drier...

 

Like a Rolls-Royce, if you have to ask what all this costs then you probably can't afford it -- compared to a conventional diesel boat with gas cooking and lower-power electrics (and no generator), my guess is at least £30k extra but I don't have an exact figure. No doubt many people would say this is not worth it, but it should be pointed out that this is smaller than the cost difference for diesel boats between low/midrange and top-end boatbuilders which they usually think is justified... 🙂

 

"Gas-free" on a diesel boat really doesn't make sense...

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, PCSB said:

As @dmr says above gas is the least expensive of bills. We are full time liveaboard and we spend a lot of time actually cruising . We do a lot of cooking onboard too. We used 4 13Kg gas bottles last year so approx £160 in cost. It does use storage space for the bottles but seems a small price to pay.

 

There are people about who who are just scared of gas and would rather not have it on their boat, no matter how good the safety record of a well-maintained installation might be. I met a boater last year whose home as a child had a gas explosion. They survived (obviously) but they were dead nervous of the gas in their boat and didn't fully realise there are ways around having it. 

[Mad Harold]

2 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

 

<pedant>CO alarm, not CO2</pedant>

I thank you and Mtb for your enlightenment and illumination. 🐴🎃

[IanD]

46 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

There are people about who who are just scared of gas and would rather not have it on their boat, no matter how good the safety record of a well-maintained installation might be. I met a boater last year whose home as a child had a gas explosion. They survived (obviously) but they were dead nervous of the gas in their boat and didn't fully realise there are ways around having it. 

There are, but the total cost is *many* times higher than just the cost of adding on an induction hob and electric oven...

[MtB]

23 minutes ago, IanD said:

There are, but the total cost is *many* times higher than just the cost of adding on an induction hob and electric oven...

 

Indeed. The conventional (and probably cheapest) way of doing it was to install a 10KVA cocooned and silent generator somewhere in the boat. Under the tug deck is ideal which is why gas-free boats are often tug-style. Then just start the genny whenever you want to cook stuff. 

 

 

[IanD]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

Indeed. The conventional (and probably cheapest) way of doing it was to install a 10KVA cocooned and silent generator somewhere in the boat. Under the tug deck is ideal which is why gas-free boats are often tug-style. Then just start the genny whenever you want to cook stuff.

 

 

True, but apart from still being *very* expensive -- well over £10k installed, which most people would say is a tad expensive to get rid of a gas cooker -- this means you have to start and run the generator whenever you want to cook, as you say. Which can mean slightly annoying noise and vibration inside the boat, and also any boat you happen to be breasted up to after 8pm -- as somebody complained about on CWDF some time ago... 😞

 

It also means you need a generator big enough to supply the total peak load -- 10kVA is typical, as you say -- which will actually end up running well below this most of the time, which is not efficient and means a lot of hours on the generator (wear, servicing...).

 

The whole point of adding an inverter/battery bank setup is to avoid this, you can have a smaller generator and run it less often -- and not need to run after 8pm. But this is even more expensive, the added battery/inverter costs more than the saving on a smaller generator -- but is cheaper to run... 😞

 

I looked into all this in depth when deciding which way to go, and rapidly rejected a gas-free diesel boat as a bad idea. Other ideas like lead-carbon batteries, massive alternators and parallel hybrid also fell by the wayside due to significant disadvantages. With all of these things that look attractive at first sight to a newcomer, it's often only when you really dig down into the details that the disadvantages become apparent... 😉

Edited June 14, 2023 by IanD