70ft issues

[Alakefic]

Hi all

 could do with any advice.

not new to boating but new to the idea of Liveaboard 

we are considering buying a 70’ wide beam and have all the time in the world to cruise her.  We would like to navigate the Kennet and Avon and, on paper, all looks good with the lock sizes etc but do any of you good folk see things differently?

 

Edited May 7 by Alakefic

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Alakefic said:

Hi all

 could do with any advice.

not new to boating but new to the idea of Liveaboard 

we are considering buying a 70’ wide beam and have all the time in the world to cruise her.  We would like to navigate the Kennet and Avon and, on paper, all looks good with the lock sizes etc but do any of you good folk see things differently?

 

 

Are you planning to ONLY cruise the K&A ?

It is the most 'enforced' piece of water in the country due to the rule breakers that have taken up residence.

 

You only have to look at the lists of boats under enforcement over the last few years (and still ongoing today) to see how bad it is. 

[Alakefic]

Hi Alan, Mrs Alakefic here.   No not only the K&A but for various reasons, we’d like to do that one in the early stage of our new venture. Understand it’s busy but as I say, we’ve got time on our side, so wondered if anyone had any input on potential problems. Cheers

[ditchcrawler]

70 foot widebeam on the K&A its the people behind you who will have the problems plus the ones you meet, especially if they are the same size as you.

[Alakefic]

Ha I get it!  You mean we’d be a pain in the a**e.  However, prejudice aside, the question was what problems might we face but thank you for you response

[dmr]

I spent many happy years, on and off, on the K&A and thought the negativity here was a bit over done, however we were mostly there in the winters.  A friend, also an ex K&A boater, went to visit recently and said it is now just too full to be  good place to live, and she specifically mentioned the huge increase in big widebeams. Maybe its still ok at the Eastern end but the Western end is now full. Quite a few of the "old timers" who were good boaters have now moved elsewhere. 

[David Mack]

Having done the K&A in a 71ft6in narrow boat, we were fine, but could only lock through with a shorter boat alongside. In several locks we had to push across behind a shut bottom gate to get through. A widebeam doesn't have that option. At 70 ft you would be 18 inches shorter (nominally) but it could still be a tight fit.

 

I would expect width to be more of an issue. If 10ft you probably won't have too many problems, if 14ft you will, and you will also upset a lot of other boaters.

1 hour ago, Alakefic said:

Hi Alan, Mrs Alakefic here.   No not only the K&A but for various reasons, we’d like to do that one in the early stage of our new venture.

Do you understand the extent of waterways available to you other than the K&A which your boat would fit, without needing a trip on a lorry or by sea to get there?

[dmr]

26 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Having done the K&A in a 71ft6in narrow boat, we were fine, but could only lock through with a shorter boat alongside. In several locks we had to push across behind a shut bottom gate to get through. A widebeam doesn't have that option. At 70 ft you would be 18 inches shorter (nominally) but it could still be a tight fit.

 

I would expect width to be more of an issue. If 10ft you probably won't have too many problems, if 14ft you will, and you will also upset a lot of other boaters.

Do you understand the extent of waterways available to you other than the K&A which your boat would fit, without needing a trip on a lorry or by sea to get there?

 

I am pretty sure a 70 foot widebeam will just about fit but a few locks will be very tight. I note that CRT now list the maximum length as 72 foot but I think this is wrong, I am pretty sure that it's a 70 foot canal.  Due to the number of moored boats, including  widebeams, it is possible that some places at the Western end will be quite difficult. I remember meeting that huge hotel boat that cruised the K&A a few years ago and even without moored boats we were not able to pass, or we did but I ended up severely grounded.

[Rob-M]

I thought some of the lock entrances on the K&A weren't quite 14' as two narrowboats have to enter separately rather than breasted up.

[Goliath]

Yes there’s one on the Devises flight which catches people out. 

Although it is sign posted, it still gets some. 

[dmr]

3 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

I thought some of the lock entrances on the K&A weren't quite 14' as two narrowboats have to enter separately rather than breasted up.

 

You are correct (and I know this 😀). I had assumed that the OP intends to get nothing wider than about 12'6", Surely nobody would contemplate a 70 x 14 foot boat😀

1 minute ago, Goliath said:

Yes there’s one on the Devises flight which catches people out. 

Although it is sign posted, it still gets some. 

 

Trouble is its half way down so you're just getting into a nice locking rhythm by then and getting over confident 😀  Also one or both at Semmington?  and one at Seend but I think thats fixed now?

[David Mack]

Not do long so there was a wide boat that went onto the K&A but was unable to get off again as in the meantime CRT had reconstructed a lock entrance slightly narrower. I never heard if/how that got sorted.

[matty40s]

25 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Not do long so there was a wide boat that went onto the K&A but was unable to get off again as in the meantime CRT had reconstructed a lock entrance slightly narrower. I never heard if/how that got sorted.

That wide boat had successfully cruised the K&A and other waterways for a long time. It went East for a cruise, and coming back couldnt. CrT tried to blame them at first, and eventually had to get the contractors back who had rebuilt the access wall incorrectly.

 

[Captain Pegg]

6 hours ago, dmr said:

 

I am pretty sure a 70 foot widebeam will just about fit but a few locks will be very tight. I note that CRT now list the maximum length as 72 foot but I think this is wrong, I am pretty sure that it's a 70 foot canal.  Due to the number of moored boats, including  widebeams, it is possible that some places at the Western end will be quite difficult. I remember meeting that huge hotel boat that cruised the K&A a few years ago and even without moored boats we were not able to pass, or we did but I ended up severely grounded.

 

Well it's clearly OK for 71' 6" if it's 7' 0" plus a tiny bit wide and has a finely shaped bow and a rounded stern.

 

The problem with the published craft dimensions is that they don't tell you what works in combination. The published K&A dimensions are 72' x 13' 1" but it seems a boat maxing out at both those dimensions would not fit.

 

Historically the 72' requirement is enshrined in law for Reading to Tyle Mill, but that related to boats that were only 6' 6" wide.

 

 

[dmr]

I think the CRT canal dimensions list does actually say that you can't always have all the maximum dimensions at the same time.

 

Are any navigation dimensions still enshrined in law, even after restoration (and transfer to CRT)?  and would 72 foot imply navigation without going diagonal or shuffling in behind a closed gate etc?     From memory I think the two shortest locks are between Reading and Tyle Mill 😀

[magpie patrick]

Just a quick note, I keep seeing 14 foot beam mentioned - don't try this! The locks were built to take barges 13 feet 8 inches wide! If buying with the intention of cruising the K&A then 12 feet is the maximum sensible figure - if you happen to own a wider boat and need to get it from the Thames to the Severn then 13 foot 6 for a one way trip will probably get through but you'll be slow and stressed....

[Captain Pegg]

12 hours ago, dmr said:

I think the CRT canal dimensions list does actually say that you can't always have all the maximum dimensions at the same time.

 

Are any navigation dimensions still enshrined in law, even after restoration (and transfer to CRT)?  and would 72 foot imply navigation without going diagonal or shuffling in behind a closed gate etc?     From memory I think the two shortest locks are between Reading and Tyle Mill 😀

 

CRT's published dimensions are spectacularly lacking in usefulness when it comes to real critical limits.

 

That's because of they the way they are derived, which is directly related to the dimensions established as requiring to be maintained by the Transport Act 1968, and reflects the craft that actually used the waterway concerned at that time rather then the largest than could actually navigate. They've since evolved into a bit of a mess in trying to perpetuate the base requirements and cater for modern usage.

 

Those requirements are still enshrined in law but of course only apply to waterways designated as either Commerical and Cruising because there was - and still is - no requirement to maintain residual waterways fit for navigation at all.

 

Recent discussions on the thread concluded that CRT have a duty to maintain all their waterways fit for navigation (probably in a condition baselined at the date of their creation) and that powers over residual waterways are retained by the Government - who are still bound by the law.  

 

 

[peterboat]

22 hours ago, Alakefic said:

Hi all

 could do with any advice.

not new to boating but new to the idea of Liveaboard 

we are considering buying a 70’ wide beam and have all the time in the world to cruise her.  We would like to navigate the Kennet and Avon and, on paper, all looks good with the lock sizes etc but do any of you good folk see things differently?

 

I have a 57 x 12 and wouldn't contemplate anything larger, we are based in the North with mostly big waterways for big boats. Down south you are going to be deeply unpopular. Think carefully before going that large

[magnetman]

22 hours ago, matty40s said:

That wide boat had successfully cruised the K&A and other waterways for a long time. It went East for a cruise, and coming back couldnt. CrT tried to blame them at first, and eventually had to get the contractors back who had rebuilt the access wall incorrectly.

 

Boat was called Toggenberg. 

 

Modern dutch style barge. Quite a wide one.

 

Probably findable on Google. I think they did get back to the Thames keeping the bottom wet. 

Canalplan boat list says 13ft6 beam for it. 

 

[matty40s]

I'm quite sure WiltshireWanderer can enlighten us , the lock in question had its entry walls rebuilt to 13ft wide.

[frangar]

On 07/05/2023 at 14:40, Alakefic said:

Hi all

 could do with any advice.

not new to boating but new to the idea of Liveaboard 

we are considering buying a 70’ wide beam and have all the time in the world to cruise her.  We would like to navigate the Kennet and Avon and, on paper, all looks good with the lock sizes etc but do any of you good folk see things differently?

 

Suggest you go and look at the K & A and imagine what might happen if you met a similar sized craft coming towards you….something which most widebeam owners on unsuitable waterways never seem to think might happen…..

[MtB]

44 minutes ago, frangar said:

Suggest you go and look at the K & A and imagine what might happen if you met a similar sized craft coming towards you….something which most widebeam owners on unsuitable waterways never seem to think might happen…..

 

To be fair much of it is wide enough for two 13ft fatties to squeeze past each other (here at the eastern end anyway). But it just seems so bloody selfish to be grabbing so much 'canal estate' with a boat one third of the width of much the canal.

 

Most of them look totally out of proportion, like when you see a tipper lorry driving up a small residential cul-de-sac. 

 

 

 

(Mebbe that was a bad analogy, lol!)

 

 

[Bee]

I really would not recommend it. Our boat is 10m x 3.4, that is a bit over 32` x 11` and has a chined hull and a slightly V bottom. She is a replica Dutch tug but is shallow draft. We have traversed the K&A and it is hard work. We have a big advantage in that we can get right into the edge because of the hull shape. Most wide boats are box shaped and trying to find a bit of bank 70` long to get into to moor up will be hard work.  We have also been up the GU as far as Braunston and that was tough in places too, the GU has a few narrow bridges too where you may well stick tight. If you were to go ahead with this you would probably find it so awkward as to regret it and depreciation on it would be very painful. I must also mention running costs, licencing a boat like this is getting expensive, finding a mooring will be a worry and as for mooring costs, that will be a bit of a shock. 'Bee' was built for European waterways and lives in France now and is happy on all but the biggest commercial waterways which can be a bit bouncy but in my opinion the boat you are proposing will not really fit anywhere, including European waterways where anything over 20 metres falls into a different category.

[Mike Adams]

I don't think there is any canal south of Nottingham that is suitable for Wide (12 to14ft) boats except around London. We just managed to pass one on a canal down south today but their progress was to my mind very slow at 2MPH. The OP might have all the time is the world to hold up traffic but most of us don't. What people fail to remember is that on these wide beam canals and rivers such as the Wey, Basingstoke and Kennet and Avon there were very few wide commercial boats and they generally knew where they all were and could work together where the channel was narrow. OK the GU was widened in the 1930's but not the channel above Berko and wide boats were never a success.

Personally I hate the things, they are generally very ugly, slow and defeat the whole idea of pleasure boating and make everyone else fed up with them. If people want to live in a tin box why can't they buy a mobile home and a small boat for cruising.

[magnetman]

I imagine the incredibly low cost of being able to stay in one area taking advantage of the Bona Fide 1995 Act might be a factor. This could change but I doubt the influx of the things will slow down in a hurry. 

 

 

 

I imagine the incredibly low cost of being able to stay in one area taking advantage of the Bona Fide 1995 Act might be a factor. This could change but I doubt the influx of the things will slow down in a hurry.