Anchor rope size

[Strettonman]

I've got a 40ft narrowboat and looking to start boating on the river part of the network. I can't find a clear guideline for rope type, diameter, length, end loops etc for my anchor so can anyone help.

 

Also the boat came with a large 4 claw folding anchor so is this appropriate ?

 

Cheers

[BEngo]

In an NB on the rivers you are looking for the anchor to be an emergency brake. This means stopping you being pulled into or over a weir.  That is a completely different task to anchoring deliberately for an overnight stop, say.  Your tackle needs to cope with the braking loads. The usual set up is Anchor, chain cable which does most of the holding,  rope to connect the chain to the boat.

 

Rope (aka warp) :  Nylon.  This has good shock absorbing properties..

Size: Big. 25mm at least.

Length:  As much as you can store, arranged so it can run out without tangles.  The rope needs to reach the river bed, so that the chain is on the bottom. A thimble eye at the  chain end, soft eye at the boat end.  Use D shackles to secure to chain and boat. Either wire mouse or studlock the shackle pins.You do not want to find one is loose, or missing.

 

Chain: As much as you can store/afford, again arranged to run out quickly and cleanly.  10 m minimum.

 

Anchor.  Usually a Danforth sort of thing because they are easy to stow.  A picture of yours will help us comment on what you have.

 

A *Strong*, *Secure* fastening point on boat.  This may need to

take all the load of stopping several tons of boat so is important.  Fasten the anchor rope  to it.   NOW!  Not when you are about to go over the weir🙄.

N

 

[magnetman]

I wouldn't trust a folding anchor for anything but a dinghy. 

Danforth is the best for a narrow boat. 

Assuming the OP anchor is one of these:

 

 

Not good although appears sensible and easy to store I don't think it will do the job. 

 

 

[LadyG]

Jimmy Green Marine sell short ends of chain, look in Clearance.

All the info is there about mooring, it refers to anchoring yachts, I considered your the boat size is equivalent to  8-10 metres, so 8mm chain is fine.

There is 6m of 8mm for £50.40 at the moment

My NB is  larger than yours and I went for 10mm chain. Primary function here is to set anchor in correct orientation., 

I used green pin shackles as shackles introduce a weak link situation.

I used a bow (as in bow and arrow) shaped shackle to attach anchor.

With respect to warp I had a 30m of 18mm anchorplait from my salty days. Stretchy and will easily tie to T for anchoring and to the dolly bits for towing and for bollards when used in deep locks.

Refer to the JGM site for all knowledge but of course you are not anchoring a yacht in a force ten storm.

I believe that the T post may be your weak link. I think that deployment and stopping would be your primary worry.

with respect to stopping , I took this seriously and bought a Mantus. MANTUS MARK 1 is for silty bottoms and easier handling 

I don't go on rivers much.

I have never had engine failure (the most likely "weak link") Keep the fuel tank filled will clean diesel and no crud or water. I pumped my tank when I got the boat into the twenty litre containers fron a car wash. It took three days to get 50l of clean from 60l of tank contents. I used a bit of fuel additive to help in the process. 

I remove a litre every year from the tank bottom to see if it is dirty so far no problems.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2023 by LadyG

[Peugeot 106]

Convention for a seagoing yacht is 1/8” per 9 feet. But you’re probably not going to be using it very much (if ever) so its not going to wear out and it won’t be snatching in waves etc. (Hopefully!) I use 11mm nylon  climbing rope ( I used to climb so already had it but you can buy it secondhand eg eBay) but than my boat is only 25 feet. I’m not going to recommend a size but handleability, ease of use and storage ability are important.

The chain is important 10 metres of 5/16” sounds about right 

i wouldn’t go too big with rope and chain. I hasten to add that though I have been on Trent, Ribble Link, Severn Estuary I have never used it though I always have it at the ready. I have seen folk really struggling even to get their anchoring kit on deck due to the size of it all 

Folding anchors are useless nearly everyone gets a Danforth due to their efficiency and price. I would get the biggest I could comfortably chuck over the side. It’s useless if you can’t get it over the side!

so I’m making no recommendations but don’t go daft. You’ll end up with a hernia!

 

[IanD]

I'm sure @Alan de Enfield will chip in with more detail, but if you can afford it (and they're not *that* expensive) a 10kg Kobra + 5m of 8mm chain + 25m of 14mm nylon anchorplait is a good solution for a narrowboat, *much* better holding in an emergency than a much bigger/heavier Danforth and easier to deploy because it's lighter.

Edited April 18, 2023 by IanD

[Tony Brooks]

35 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I have never had engine failure (the most likely "weak link") Keep the fuel tank filled will clean diesel and no crud or water. I pumped my tank when I got the boat into the twenty litre containers fron a car wash. It took three days to get 50l of clean from 60l of tank contents. I used a bit of fuel additive to help in the process. 

I remove a litre every year from the tank bottom to see if it is dirty so far no problems.

 

 

I can't emphasise enough about how important keeping your fuel tank free of water and muck is, although since the "sticky diesel" and odd waxing of filters (not the cold plugging that has been well known for years) I would be a bit wary of additives nowadays, it seems they MIGHT, not are, be implicated in both problems.

 

On the vast majority of narrowboats it is impossible to fully dewater the tank, even if the facility is provided, so I advocate syphoning or pumping the bottom of the tank at least once a year to remove any water. Clear hose so you can see what is coming out with a bent copper pipe "wand" on the end, so you can sweep it over the whole tank, especially into the back and side corners.

 

After over 20 years narrow boating and maybe 7 years on the hire fleet, the only time I have deployed the anchor was once on the fleet to anchor up in the Thames, so the VIPs aboard could have lunch and a few times on canals where I dropped the anchor over the off side in case the local yobs cast me adrift in the night.

 

Proper and diligent maintenance is just as important as an anchor when on rivers.

[David Mack]

33 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Proper and diligent maintenance is just as important as an anchor when on rivers.

Quite. Much more important never to put yourself in a position where you may need to use the anchor. The average narrowboater has one of the less efficient anchor types, no anchor rope/chain locker, roller and winch for reliable  deployment (and recovery) of the rope and chain, and no experience of using an anchor. And the only occasion when he might need to use it will be some sort of emergency such as losing all power just above a river weir. And usually only one chance of deploying the anchor correctly. What are the chances of that happening successfully?

[howardang]

2 hours ago, Strettonman said:

I've got a 40ft narrowboat and looking to start boating on the river part of the network. I can't find a clear guideline for rope type, diameter, length, end loops etc for my anchor so can anyone help.

 

Also the boat came with a large 4 claw folding anchor so is this appropriate ?

 

Cheers

You will get plenty of views on anchor and warps so I'll not add to the repetition. One thing I would say, however, is that your description of the "anchor " supplied sounds like a grapnel which is, in my view, totally unsuitable for use as an anchor,  despite being sold as one.  Think about the reality; when you deploy the device it will, at most only have two of the 4 flukes - what you describe as a claw - digging into the canal or river bed and quite often one fluke which is not enough to act as an anchor, especially in an emergency, which is when you will really need it.

 

Howard

 

[LadyG]

47 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Quite. Much more important never to put yourself in a position where you may need to use the anchor. The average narrowboater has one of the less efficient anchor types, no anchor rope/chain locker, roller and winch for reliable  deployment (and recovery) of the rope and chain, and no experience of using an anchor. And the only occasion when he might need to use it will be some sort of emergency such as losing all power just above a river weir. And usually only one chance of deploying the anchor correctly. What are the chances of that happening successfully?

Just a few of my thoughts:

I would be wary of logs etc soon after storms/flooding

If I see a weir on a river, I get myself well away from it.

 I would avoid going on the river if it is windy that is to say actual breaking waves. Force4 is a no no with a barge.

It will be windier on the river than on the canal. Have a look before you go.

Freshwater waves are short and choppy so it is at this time that the fuel tank contents would start to mix. No worries for you of course ,

Have the anchor ready to deploy, tie the warp end to the T . Coil clockwise in large coils maybe store in a large builders bucket. The rope should not have kinks in it 

Instruct crew if available. 

Wear lifejackets.

I have some pilot booklets writing by locals for use by boaters.

Phone the lock operator at your destination before you set off if the lock is to be operated for you, he then has your number and you  have his.

Edited April 18, 2023 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

11 minutes ago, LadyG said:

tie the warp end to the T

 

I profoundly disagree with this advice, UNLESS you KNOW your T stud is bolted through a decent thickness of deck plate AND has a large, thick spreader plate between nut and deck. All too often the T studs on narrowboats are cast and welded on, not a method of producing a strong and reliable fixing. Such fitting may well just ping off if any force is applied, such as when the anchor bites.

 

Unless you are absolutely sure about the security of the T stud, it is safer to have a strong point fitted elsewhere. What that strong point will be depends upon the individual boat. In my case it was a bit of a hawser pipe, a 1/2" mild steel U welded to the hull plus a very large shackle in the rope eye so if the U pulled off the shackle could not pass up through the hole in the deck.

[LadyG]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I profoundly disagree with this advice, UNLESS you KNOW your T stud is bolted through a decent thickness of deck plate AND has a large, thick spreader plate between nut and deck. All too often the T studs on narrowboats are cast and welded on, not a method of producing a strong and reliable fixing. Such fitting may well just ping off if any force is applied, such as when the anchor bites.

 

Unless you are absolutely sure about the security of the T stud, it is safer to have a strong point fitted elsewhere. What that strong point will be depends upon the individual boat. In my case it was a bit of a hawser pipe, a 1/2" mild steel U welded to the hull plus a very large shackle in the rope eye so if the U pulled off the shackle could not pass up through the hole in the deck.

Absolutely agree, a proper fixing point is ideal, what I meant was fix it to the boat!

[IanD]

18 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I profoundly disagree with this advice, UNLESS you KNOW your T stud is bolted through a decent thickness of deck plate AND has a large, thick spreader plate between nut and deck. All too often the T studs on narrowboats are cast and welded on, not a method of producing a strong and reliable fixing. Such fitting may well just ping off if any force is applied, such as when the anchor bites.

 

Unless you are absolutely sure about the security of the T stud, it is safer to have a strong point fitted elsewhere. What that strong point will be depends upon the individual boat. In my case it was a bit of a hawser pipe, a 1/2" mild steel U welded to the hull plus a very large shackle in the rope eye so if the U pulled off the shackle could not pass up through the hole in the deck.

Conversely I could point out that AFAIK (from what I've read) all the cases of T-studs being pinged off (which have been mentioned several times on CWDF) have happened when being subjected to shock loads from a short non-stretchy rope/chain, such as to a bollard to stop a moving boat or being snatched by another boat to get moving, where the tension builds up from nothing to breaking strain in a few inches. Given the tons of mass involved this will either break the rope, or ping the T-stud off if it's a bit weak as suggested.

 

With an anchor attached by a decent length of nylon anchorplait or similar there is quite a lot of "give" in the rope, and even if the anchor sets instantly the boat won't be brought to an immediate stop, the rope will stretch -- probably by a metre or more -- before the boat is brought to a halt, and this massively reduces the shock load on the T-stud. That's not just guesswork, it's how Newton's laws and ropes work...

 

It's like the clickbait posts about "LITHIUM BATTERY FIRES!!!" -- yes they happen, but not to boats with LFP batteries, there's no recorded case of this happening. T-studs have been "pinged off" when abused, but I've never heard of this happening when anchoring a narrowboat using a suitable (and long enough) warp. Unless someone knows better... 😉

 

(I'm not saying a strong anchoring point isn't better still, but for this case a T-stud should be fine unless it's *really* shoddily made and attached...)

Edited April 18, 2023 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

I'm sure @Alan de Enfield will chip in with more detail, but if you can afford it (and they're not *that* expensive) a 10kg Kobra + 5m of 8mm chain + 25m of 14mm nylon anchorplait is a good solution for a narrowboat, *much* better holding in an emergency than a much bigger/heavier Danforth and easier to deploy because it's lighter.

 

There are so many experts on anchoring that I've given up.

 

Basically you have it covered, that'd be a pretty good combination, but a heavier Kobra would be even better.

 

(As long as its not a grapnel or a Danforth which are both unsuitable for NB use)

[magnetman]

Danforths do work well on the Thames. I was helping someone recover some from pontoons after the trad rally one year and they really didn't come out easily. 

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

There are so many experts on anchoring that I've given up.

 

Basically you have it covered, that'd be a pretty good combination, but a heavier Kobra would be even better.

 

(As long as its not a grapnel or a Danforth which are both unsuitable for NB use)

 

That combination came from the information you provided, which changed my mind about what the "best" solution (for me) was -- so thank you for that... 🙂

 

If it's a good anchor design like the Kobra 10kg is plenty for a 40' boat (or even my 60' one...) for emergency use on rivers according to the information you posted earlier (and the manufacturer's data) -- heavier is not *always* better because a bigger/heavier one is harder to stow and deploy in a hurry in this situation, especially for someone who may be older or less strong.

 

If you're anchoring your catamaran off a rocky lee shore in a force 9 gale then I'm sure much bigger/heavier *would* be better, but that's not what is being discussed here... 😉

Edited April 18, 2023 by IanD

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

Danforths do work well on the Thames. I was helping someone recover some from pontoons after the trad rally one year and they really didn't come out easily. 

 

The trouble is it all depends upon the bottom that could be anything from rock, gravel, mud, or a thick layer of rotting vegetation.

 

Personally, I can't see one of the expensive anchors holding in a river with a rocky bottom unless the rocks are fractured rather than smoothed by the water flow.

 

I considered my Danforth more of a mud weight and an aid to allowing a ferryglide to the edge in a stronger flow

[IanD]

13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

The trouble is it all depends upon the bottom that could be anything from rock, gravel, mud, or a thick layer of rotting vegetation.

 

Personally, I can't see one of the expensive anchors holding in a river with a rocky bottom unless the rocks are fractured rather than smoothed by the water flow.

 

I considered my Danforth more of a mud weight and an aid to allowing a ferryglide to the edge in a stronger flow

 

And how many UK rivers with smooth rocky bottoms are there that a narrowboat is ever likely to go on -- Thames, Trent, Avon, Soar, Severn? Just asking... 😉

 

People should be realistic when worrying about something, whether it's anchors or T-studs or battery fires, and not worry too much about a disaster which is *extremely* unlikely to happen to them -- by all means take precautions against the things that have some chance of happening, but don't sweat too much about being hit by an asteroid... 🙂

Edited April 18, 2023 by IanD

[David Mack]

32 minutes ago, IanD said:

T-studs have been "pinged off" when abused, but I've never heard of this happening when anchoring a narrowboat using a suitable (and long enough) warp. Unless someone knows better... 😉

OK. Not a narrowboat, and not when anchoring, but this was the result of a dodgy bollard weld.

"Between 30 and 35 people were on the pier waiting for Star Clipper and other river
services. As the vessel made the approach, her mate, standing at the port passenger
entrance, passed the eye of a polypropylene berthing rope over a pier bollard and
secured it loosely onto one of the vessel’s bollards. The captain manoeuvred Star
Clipper to align with the pier and vessel passenger gates. When the vessel was about
1.5m from the pier, the rope was secured and slight ahead power maintained to bring
her alongside.
Just prior to coming alongside, Star Clipper’s mooring bollard was torn from the deck
and was catapulted over the 1.1m pier safety fence. It struck one of the waiting
passengers, causing fatal injuries."

https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports/failure-of-mooring-bollard-on-passenger-vessel-star-clipper-at-st-katharine-s-pier-river-thames-england-with-loss-of-1-life

 

[magnetman]

Very nasty. Previous repairs failed. 

 

Apparently the bollard hit the woman straight in the head. Talk about unlucky.

 

 

 

 

"The design of the solid stainless steel bollard and base plate that failed on 2 May had evolved empirically through a series of modifications in reaction to earlier, less catastrophic, failures. The MCA had not been informed of these failures, nor was it consulted over the subsequent proposed modifications."

 

 

Not ideal !

They use staplespun polypropylene ropes. My favourite type but it has very little stretch to it so you have to be confident on the hardware. Ideally the rope should break before the boat fittings. Obviously. 

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Very nasty. Previous repairs failed. 

 

Apparently the bollard hit the woman straight in the head. Talk about unlucky.

 

 

 

 

"The design of the solid stainless steel bollard and base plate that failed on 2 May had evolved empirically through a series of modifications in reaction to earlier, less catastrophic, failures. The MCA had not been informed of these failures, nor was it consulted over the subsequent proposed modifications."

 

 

Not ideal !

They use staplespun polypropylene ropes. My favourite type but it has very little stretch to it so you have to be confident on the hardware. Ideally the rope should break before the boat fittings. Obviously. 

 

Exactly as I said, if you use a short strong non-stretchy rope to try and stop a heavy steel ship/boat in a few inches, something is going to give, very possibly the bollard/T-stud. It's basic physics, innit?

 

A long anchor warp on a narrowboat on a river is a completely different case, and I would be *extremely" surprised if there was a single case of a T-stud being pulled off under these circumstances. You might as well say that steel canal boats shouldn't move in the ice because it might cause severe hull damage -- after all, look what happened to the Titanic!

 

Unless somebody knows better... 😉

Edited April 18, 2023 by IanD

[DHutch]

Don't want to go off topic too much, but was there not a member on here who lost the centreline fixing and or fairlead in a lock, with it hitting them in the arm with enough force to require medical attention.

 

We have reasonably strong 100mm dia fabricated bollards weld into the boat, not up to ship standards but better than most t-studs and dollies, but or centreline fixing is just an M10-12 eye hook in the roof, so we have a check strap from the centreline to the handrail.

[magnetman]

2 minutes ago, DHutch said:

Don't want to go off topic too much, but was there not a member on here who lost the centreline fixing and or fairlead in a lock, with it hitting them in the arm with enough force to require medical attention.

 

We have reasonably strong 100mm dia fabricated bollards weld into the boat, not up to ship standards but better than most t-studs and dollies, but or centreline fixing is just an M10-12 eye hook in the roof, so we have a check strap from the centreline to the handrail.

@chris jw That was some yars ago probably around 2008. 

 

Slowing the boat down in a lock. 

 

The weld on the u shaped piece on the cabin top broke and the steel ring was catapulted into his shoulder. He was very lucky it wasn't the face. 

 

 

[DHutch]

 

 

Rightly or wrongly, for our 22ton 58ft boat with have a 25kg Danforth. Maybe a cobra type would be as good or better?

 

As said, equally key is a good length of heavy chain, because you want the force to be dragging the anchor along the bed, not upwards toward the boat.

Without the chain the length of rope would be prohibitively and problematically long in order to make a good angle with the riverbed. 

 

We actually have all chain and a chain winch on the box, but that isnt necessarily any better a setup and makes deploying from the stern problematic, which might well be the best option if travelling downstream.

 

 

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, magnetman said:

@chris jw That was some yars ago probably around 2008. 

 

Slowing the boat down in a lock. 

 

The weld on the u shaped piece on the cabin top broke and the steel ring was catapulted into his shoulder. He was very lucky it wasn't the face. 

 

 

Same thing again -- short rope, little or no stretch or give, <ping>...

9 minutes ago, DHutch said:

 

 

Rightly or wrongly, for our 22ton 58ft boat with have a 25kg Danforth. Maybe a cobra type would be as good or better?

 

As said, equally key is a good length of heavy chain, because you want the force to be dragging the anchor along the bed, not upwards toward the boat.

Without the chain the length of rope would be prohibitively and problematically long in order to make a good angle with the riverbed. 

 

We actually have all chain and a chain winch on the box, but that isnt necessarily any better a setup and makes deploying from the stern problematic, which might well be the best option if travelling downstream.

 

 

 

A 12 kg Kobra would do a better job on 22 tons than your 25kg Danforth, according to multiple tests, and be *much* easier to deploy.

 

(which is why a 10kg one is fine for me with 18 tons, and has the advantage over the 12kg of not needing the spade assembling before deploying)