Anchor rope size

[magnetman]

It was actually quite a long rope with lots of stretch. I saw him shortly afterwards and he showed me the rope and the fitting. It was remarkably tinny just a bent over piece of steel bar welded onto the top of the boat. 

 

Bound to break. 

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

It was actually quite a long rope with lots of stretch. I saw him shortly afterwards and he showed me the rope and the fitting. It was remarkably tinny just a bent over piece of steel bar welded onto the top of the boat. 

 

Bound to break. 

Not a T-stud with an anchor rope, then... 😉

[magnetman]

No but the discussion has widened to the general suitability of deck hardware rather than specifically anchors connected to narrow boat tee studs. 

 

 

 

One hazard I could see would be if you were to drop an anchor from the front of a boat going downstream the boat has to then turn itself round into the flow. You would want to be very certain that there was room to allow this without fouling the banks or trees or shallow areas. 

 

The most secure way to attach an anchor is probably using a large tested shackle through the stem post. You would need someone to drill the hole for it and it makes it a bit awkward to get the anchor back afterwards due to the leaning over thing but it would be the most secure option. 

 

 

Also exactly central. The tee stud is slightly back from the front of the boat so you would never get a completely straight line to the anchor rope as it would always be slightly to one side unless fed through a fairlead in the middle which itself would be a hazard on lock gates. 

[LadyG]

Its not what comes out of the seabed easily. Any decent seagoing anchor will dig down every tug on the chain.

Get a modern anchor that grabs the bottom straight off for a barge.

 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2023 by LadyG

[IanD]

24 minutes ago, magnetman said:

No but the discussion has widened to the general suitability of deck hardware rather than specifically anchors connected to narrow boat tee studs. 

 

 

 

One hazard I could see would be if you were to drop an anchor from the front of a boat going downstream the boat has to then turn itself round into the flow. You would want to be very certain that there was room to allow this without fouling the banks or trees or shallow areas. 

 

The most secure way to attach an anchor is probably using a large tested shackle through the stem post. You would need someone to drill the hole for it and it makes it a bit awkward to get the anchor back afterwards due to the leaning over thing but it would be the most secure option. 

 

 

Also exactly central. The tee stud is slightly back from the front of the boat so you would never get a completely straight line to the anchor rope as it would always be slightly to one side unless fed through a fairlead in the middle which itself would be a hazard on lock gates. 

 

There may be better ways to attach an anchor, but most narrowboats don't have them.

 

What they do have is a T-stud which will almost certainly be absolutely fine for attaching an anchor and line to. No need for a fairlead, a slightly off-straight line will make little or no difference.

 

If you're going downstream then it should probably be deployed from the stern, whether anyone ever swaps it to there is a moot point -- you're far more likely to need it when pushing upstream against the current than downstream with it, given the most likely reasons to need it (engine/fuel problem, prop fouling...).

Edited April 18, 2023 by IanD

[LadyG]

I chose the Mantus because it had the best rapid stop and the added advantage of being easy to handle and a modern design ie lightweight.

 

I did think about a Danforth on the stern with a bit of rope in case I needed a mud weight type of thing .

Edited April 18, 2023 by LadyG

[bizzard]

When I sailed my old Mirror dinghy all the way from Wallingford right through to Barking creek all I had for an anchor was two old cast steel Ford track control arms tied together on a long rope. When I anchored with them for a bit of a nosh and a can of grog near the Gas Works ''Houses of parliament'' on an out going tide they held jolly well.

Edited April 18, 2023 by bizzard

[Peugeot 106]

Never any posts on retrieving the anchor which can be much more difficult than setting it. I’ve never had to leave one but have had my share of problems over the years especially on rivers and fouled seabeds. 

 

The chain forms a catenary that helps it dig in. If that stretches tight it will probably pull out just when you think it is setting. The anchor normally drags a short way before digging in which absorbs a lot of energy and the rope stretches which  help it dig in and again absorbs energy.

The forces are nothing like as huge as some people imagine.

Non stretch line will just pull it out unless there is loads of chain to absorb the resultant snatching

 

I suggest the plentiful articles on anchoring yachts are read if you are planning to use the anchor a lot. I would also pay attention as to what to do when it gets stuck (it will) as well as about shearing and swinging.

 

most importantly you don’t want it or any of the gear too big. Instruct your crew before you need to use it. Lay it out neatly beforehand. Let it out carefully don’t just chuck everything over the side.  Don’t drop the chain on top of it. KEEP body parts away from coils etc. And make sure you can release it quickly in an emergency (bread knife or whatever). If it is dragging you will feel it scraping along the bottom with a hand on the line.

 

Bear in mind you will need around 6 times the water depth in scope (length of rope + chain out). A lot of stretch and energy absorption. Also think about how you are going to get towed as you may need to be if you can’t fix your boat at anchor

 

an anchor is in my view definitely sensible and I can envisage scenarios where it would be useful but it’s not going to get you out of all your scrapes any more than a parachute will in an airplane. Between you and me I don’t think they are used very much. I’ve yet to see the post where someone was being pulled over a weir......though I suppose they may not have been able to write the post......

 

[Alan de Enfield]

12 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

I’ve yet to see the post where someone was being pulled over a weir......though I suppose they may not have been able to write the post......

 

 

I've been involved in two such episodes on the River Trent. 

One, the anchor (Danforth) slowed then down enough for us to get a line aboard, if we hadn't of been there, they'd no doubt have been rolled under the dolphins / boom / barrels & over the weir.

 

The 2nd one they never even had an anchor on board - wife fell overboard and was hanging on the stern, husband couldn't let go of controls to pull her up, worried that she'd be chopped up in by the prop. They went over and rolled inverted and then it righted itself, everything on the crusier stern was crushed or ripped off - they both survived and were rescued as the boat drifted along into the trees.

 

Boat was recovered by C&RT and taken into our marina. They never came back and, apparently gave up boating altogether, moaning loudly on social media that no one had warned then about the flow in the river and 'someone' should have stopped them.

Its always someone elses fault !

Edited April 18, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[Peugeot 106]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I've been involved in two such episodes on the River Trent. 

One the anchor )Danforth) slowed then down enough for us to get a line aboard, if we hadn't of been there, they'd no doubt have been over the weir.

 

The 2nd on they never even had an anchor on board - wife fell overboar and was hanging on the stern, husband couldn't let go of controls to pull her up, worried that she'd be chopped up in by the prop. They went over and rolled inverted and then righted itself everything on the crusier stern was crushed or ripped off - they both survived and were rescued as the boat drifted along into the trees.

 

Boat was recovered by C&RT and taken into our marina. They never came back and, apparently gave up boating altogether, moaning loudly on social media that no one had warned then about the flow in the river and 'someone' should have stopped them.

Maybe just shows you’re better off with Luck than an anchor. That sounds like some epic!  Doubly lucky with someone in the water and over the weir with engine in gear. Was there no rope or buoys at the weir ? (though i’ve Often wondered what happens if you get tangled in them.)

 

I meant to add that a dragging anchor can get you quite a lot of time. Also you should sight the shore to see if you are dragging!

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

Was there no rope or buoys at the weir ?

 

Yes - but they are not desingned to stop Narrowboats - being so shallow and long they just sit sideways to the current and then they just roll underneath and over the weir.

 

 

Cromwell weir where we just managed to get a line aboard before he would have been into the dolphins / boom

Edited April 18, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[IanD]

35 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Yes - but they are not desingned to stop Narrowboats - being so shallow and long they just sit sideways to the current and then they just roll underneath and over the weir.

 

 

Cromwell weir where we just managed to get a line aboard before he would have been into the dolphins / boom

 

Just to put this into perspective, don't forget this is a very rare occurrence -- maybe one every 5-10 years? -- compared to many of the other hazards on canals/rivers such as cilling/hanging up in locks/weed-hatch sinkings/being knocked over the stern by a tiller/CO poisoning/boat fire/gas explosion which happen much more frequently -- but still only a few times per year...

 

Not saying that you shouldn't have a decent anchor (and lifejackets!) if you ever go out onto rivers, but the odds are that you'll never have to use them even in a lifetime of boating... 😉

Edited April 18, 2023 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

 

24 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Just to put this into perspective, don't forget this is a very rare occurrence -- maybe one every 5-10 years? -- compared to many of the other hazards on canals/rivers such as cilling/hanging up in locks/weed-hatch sinkings/being knocked over the stern by a tiller/CO poisoning/boat fire/gas explosion which happen much more frequently -- but still only a few times per year...

 

Not saying that you shouldn't have a decent anchor (and lifejackets!) if you ever go out onto rivers, but the odds are that you'll never have to use them even in a lifetime of boating... 😉

 

Indeed, it is a low risk, but one that does happens and canal users 1st time on the rivers are at the highest risk.

 

Just like taking out the 'cheapest' life insurance you can find' may prove to be an error when your family make a claim - buying a cheap anchoring system (yes it is a whole system - not just an anchor) can give you a false sense of security and you only find out it was not suitable when you come to 'claim' on it.

 

Like insurance, for years and years, an anchor is a waste of money and space except, on the one day it is needed.

[Peugeot 106]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Yes - but they are not desingned to stop Narrowboats - being so shallow and long they just sit sideways to the current and then they just roll underneath and over the weir.

 

 

Cromwell weir where we just managed to get a line aboard before he would have been into the dolphins / boom

I’d be chucking the anchor over the rope as it passed under the boat. It be a lot more secure than the anchor on the bottom. Maybe a short line and a grapnel. Presumably the boom is strong enough to moor the boat to. 

[magnetman]

Probably better to just not be boating on a river with weirs in conditions where you could get into severe difficulties. 

 

The conditions in the picture above look rather pleasant so this terrible nightmare of having the boat rolled upside down is presumably not a year round problem.

[Alan de Enfield]

46 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

I’d be chucking the anchor over the rope as it passed under the boat. It be a lot more secure than the anchor on the bottom. Maybe a short line and a grapnel. Presumably the boom is strong enough to moor the boat to. 

 

The rope doesn't pass 'under the boat - the boat is rolled over, it lifts the boom / dolphins whilst on it side / inverted and slides underneath, then over the wei it goes.

 

You'd be throwing the anchor over the line whilst you are underwater !!!

[Peugeot 106]

25 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The rope doesn't pass 'under the boat - the boat is rolled over, it lifts the boom / dolphins whilst on it side / inverted and slides underneath, then over the wei it goes.

 

You'd be throwing the anchor over the line whilst you are underwater !!!

That’s what I thought would happen. Like in a canoe trapped sideways it capsizes upstream. So what exactly is the boom supposed to do. Is it just a rather dangerous warning sign?

 

i do agree with Ian though that there are a lot of other dangers lurking on a boat that although they maybe less dramatic may be just as serious for the practitioner and more likely to happen. 

I too have properly prepared anchor gear, the knowledge to use it  and lifejackets where appropriate. 

The only time I nearly came to grief I got hung up on the downstream gate going down. It was my front button. Luckily I had read about this on the forum as a potential problem and put a cable ties in. There was one hell of a crash and splash but all was well. I have seen a couple of boats hung up on their side fenders. It all happens so quickly and they both emptied the contents of their drawers and cupboards onto the floor. Not nice and very frightening for everybody. Luckily the paddles were shut in time to avoid total catastrophe

[David Mack]

4 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

I suggest the plentiful articles on anchoring yachts are read if you are planning to use the anchor a lot.

I suspect most narrowboaters plan on never using the anchor!

[magnetman]

They used to have signs by thames locks "The anchor is your lifeline". I can't count the number of people I have got chatting with around Thames locks and during the conversation I have asked them to not throw the anchor to me if I am in the water. 

 

The anchor is not my lifeline.

 

Some people could take it the wrong way. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

That’s what I thought would happen. Like in a canoe trapped sideways it capsizes upstream. So what exactly is the boom supposed to do. Is it just a rather dangerous warning sign?

 

They are designed to stop boat shaped boats that have a shape, size, and draft that means they won't slide under the dolphons / boom.

 

NBs are not ideal for use on major rivers, and yes there are 100s, 1000s of NB transits per year but if conditions are anything but ideal a NB should not be anywhere near a major river.

[David Mack]

29 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

So what exactly is the boom supposed to do. Is it just a rather dangerous warning sign?

Booms in bright yellow as on that picture or bright orange elsewhere serve to warn boaters where the weir is. But since they are ineffective at holding a boat in anything other than the slightest flow, I do wonder whether they give boaters a false sense of security, meaning that boats may pass closer to the weir than they would if it were completely unguarded. 

I always give the booms a wide berth, just in case...

[Peugeot 106]

Maybe if you ran over it at right angles head on it would go under the boat and then try to hook it. But assuming no engine no steerage it might just not happen

[howardang]

3 hours ago, David Mack said:

Booms in bright yellow as on that picture or bright orange elsewhere serve to warn boaters where the weir is. But since they are ineffective at holding a boat in anything other than the slightest flow, I do wonder whether they give boaters a false sense of security, meaning that boats may pass closer to the weir than they would if it were completely unguarded. 

I always give the booms a wide berth, just in case...

It is obviously wise to keep well clear as you say but you may be interested in what happens if things go wrong.

This link is part of the boom suppliers web site.

 

https://www.bolinabooms.com/news/bolina-safety-booms-keeping-the-river-trent-safe-for-20-years/csb1000-with-barge/

 

Howard

[LadyG]

5 minutes ago, howardang said:

It is obviously wise to keep well clear as you say but you may be interested in what happens if things go wrong.

This link is part of the boom suppliers web site.

 

https://www.bolinabooms.com/news/bolina-safety-booms-keeping-the-river-trent-safe-for-20-years/csb1000-with-barge/

 

Howard

That looks a slightly more stable and seaworthy vessel than a NB.

Edited April 18, 2023 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

 

And even being much higher and there being very little flow you can see the list & how it is already starting to roll into, under, and lifting the boom / dolphins