Harecastle jobsworths.

[Tracy D'arth]

16 minutes ago, Heartland said:

The term "jobs worth" has a different interpretation from those who enforce the rules.

 

But at the heart of this post is the correct observance of rules or strict observance of rules and the over-zealous interpretation of them. Some might believe those that impose them, act too harshly and others think the rules are not essential at all and believe themselves above them. It can be that latter group who shout out "jobs worth" as a means of insult might fall on deaf ears as there are those that receive it feel pride in receiving such a comment. So is it worthwhile, or futile, making such a comment?

 

Looking at the reasons for having fires extinguished in Harecastle tunnel, those that object might miss the point that Harecastle New Tunnel does have connections with old coal workings and that methane gas might accumulate in the tunnel. In the old days of mining some miners would go into workings with lighted candles instead of the safer miners lamps and sometimes the gas would explode and burn or kill the miners involved. What would a boater say if there was on explosion on the boat in Harecastle Tunnel which was caused by methane gas accumulation.

 

 

That's what the great big fans are for.  Highly unlikely there could be a build up to 12%.  

[Arthur Marshall]

15 minutes ago, Heartland said:

The term "jobs worth" has a different interpretation from those who enforce the rules.

 

But at the heart of this post is the correct observance of rules or strict observance of rules and the over-zealous interpretation of them. Some might believe those that impose them, act too harshly and others think the rules are not essential at all and believe themselves above them. It can be that latter group who shout out "jobs worth" as a means of insult might fall on deaf ears as there are those that receive it feel pride in receiving such a comment. So is it worthwhile, or futile, making such a comment?

 

Looking at the reasons for having fires extinguished in Harecastle tunnel, those that object might miss the point that Harecastle New Tunnel does have connections with old coal workings and that methane gas might accumulate in the tunnel. In the old days of mining some miners would go into workings with lighted candles instead of the safer miners lamps and sometimes the gas would explode and burn or kill the miners involved. What would a boater say if there was on explosion on the boat in Harecastle Tunnel which was caused by methane gas accumulation.

 

 

I expect, re the explosion, the boater would say that it had nothing to do with the rules as naked pilot lights are perfectly acceptable, and probably a lot more likely to explode methane than a damped down bit of smouldering coal.

Whether it is worth it, calling a bloke a jobsworth to his face,  is moot. Doesn't stop him being one though, and causing irritation. Also, when they blatantly insist on compliance with their concept of what the rules say, when they don't, it's worth an official complaint (just the same as lockies who won't listen to you).

It is not an interpretation of the rules to say that a horn must be a certain volume, because the rules don't say that. It is simply a blatant bit of throwing your weight about with no justification. The rules say you must have a working horn. End.

Interestingly, the rules also say you must have a licence to go through the tunnel, but that is certainly not enforced (understandably).

I also doubt whether a bloke sitting in a brick hut thirty feet from the tunnel when the fan is going could hear anything short of an explosion that blew the doors off.

[Mike Tee]

They’d probably say ‘now that’s what you call a fart’

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

53 minutes ago, Heartland said:

New Tunnel does have connections with old coal workings and that methane gas might accumulate in the tunnel. In the old days of mining some miners would go into workings with lighted candles instead of the safer miners lamps and sometimes the gas would explode and burn or kill the miners involved.

firedamp I believe was the miners term for the gases

and before the candles they worked by flint on steel, not sure how that worked. 
 

 

36 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

The rules say you must have a working horn. End.

Interestingly, the rules also say you must have a licence to go through the tunnel, but that is certainly not enforced (understandably).

I think if I were tunnel keeper and someone turned up with a horn that worked but wouldn’t wake a budgie, I think I’d insist they took an air horn regardless. 
 

what is it 40min through the tunnel?

50min? Maybe 30 min at a good pace, can’t remember. 
But it’s a simple matter of counting boats in and out over a given time. I’d guess even I’d manage to notice one ain’t come out. 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, Goliath said:

firedamp I believe was the miners term for the gases

and before the candles they worked by flint on steel, not sure how that worked. 
 

 

 

When we had the farm in Wales we owned the land on which the Ffrwd canal and the Ffrwd Iron works and Colliery sat (operational 1796 to 1904) It was one of the deepest and largest pits in Wales at the time.

There was a report explaining the deaths of a couple of miners :

 

November 26, 1887 
Inquest into an accident at Ffrwd colliery where two men named Wm. Taylor , father and son lost their lives and three others were injured. The men were working in the main seam when a shot was fired, something was wrong with it and an explosion followed. The men started to run away but the elder Taylor ran in the wrong direction and into a place where there was choke damp, the son hearing of the accident to his father went to try to rescue him. He also got into the choke damp and was suffocated.
The jury went to view the bodies, on their return the Coroner said it was a very sad thing to see father and son lying there together. It was difficult to tell one from another , the father was so much like the son. Inquest adjourned.

 

The mine eventually closed (1904) following an accident in 1899.

 

The Mine Manager was away in Lancashire, leaving the Deputy Manager in charge - being a Bank Holiday weekend he decided that as the miners were on holiday, he would bring the pit-ponies to the surface for a couple of days and turn off the fans (saving the power needed to drive the fans). Unfortunately, due to the lack of ventilation the gas built up and exploded, but as no one was working there was no one killed or injured. Despite deperate attempts to re-open the mine it was finally realised in 1904 that it would never again produce coal and it was closed.

 

However there is an interesting end to the story, as when we were clearing one of the fields to make a menage we 'struck coal'. Looking at the old maps it was the coal storage yard and it was several feet thick. We subsequently got PP to extract the coal and sold it to a brick making company near Chester.

 

No 2 Son 'in the dig' !

 

 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[Ronaldo47]

"   firedamp I believe was the miners term for the gases

and before the candles they worked by flint on steel, not sure how that worked. "

 

The "flint mill" miners' lights were safe because the temperature of the sparks generated from flint on steel  was insufficiently high to cause ignition. However,  if firedamp were present, the sparks increased in size and luminosity, providing an indication of its presence.   Information from the Science Museum booklet "Lighting: 3. other than the home" on artificial illumination. (1970).

Edited April 9, 2023 by Ronaldo47
typos

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

52 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

"   firedamp I believe was the miners term for the gases

and before the candles they worked by flint on steel, not sure how that worked. "

 

The "flint mill" miners' lights were safe because the temperature of the sparks generated from flint on steel  was insufficiently high to cause ignition. However,  if firedamp were present, the sparks increased in size and luminosity, providing an indication of its presence.   Information from the Science Museum booklet "Lighting: 3. other than the home" on artificial illumination. (1970).

Great stuff 👍

 

Apart from being the first to be blown up, that job’d suit me right fine, better than swinging a pick. 
 

Edited April 9, 2023 by Goliath

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I expect, re the explosion, the boater would say that it had nothing to do with the rules as naked pilot lights are perfectly acceptable, and probably a lot more likely to explode methane than a damped down bit of smouldering coal.

 

What happens when you suck methane through a running diesel engine?

2 hours ago, Goliath said:

 

what is it 40min through the tunnel?

50min? Maybe 30 min at a good pace, can’t remember. 
But it’s a simple matter of counting boats in and out over a given time. I’d guess even I’d manage to notice one ain’t come out. 

 

I think @haggis knows the answer to that one

[haggis]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

What happens when you suck methane through a running diesel engine?

I think @haggis knows the answer to that one

Our horn was certainly loud enough to be heard by the tunnel operators! 

[ditchcrawler]

Well after reading this thread I thought maybe I should test my horn, first press on the button nothing, tried again and a soft of dull whirring noise, several squirts or WD40 in the compressor I now have a muffled honk, I will exercise it a little more tomorrow

[bizzard]

Last time I went through there about 1991 the keeper who opened the doors and switched the fans on never said a word to us about anything. Couldn't give two hoots whether we had a hooter or not or a stove alight. All he did was note our licence plate number.

[Lady M]

Not so much 'Health & Safety' - and less 'Compensation Culture'  back in 1991.

[Ronaldo47]

i'm pretty sure we didn't have to book when we did the 4 Counties Ring in 1983: open for one direction in the morning, the other direction in the afternoon, just turn up at the right time of day.  

[Paul C]

The booking is recent (only last year onwards?) due to water shortage.

[GilesMorris]

Well... Things have changed! Last time I went through Harecastle was around 1974 and in an act of great futility the tunnel bloke complained bitterly that my lighting was an oil lamp and a flashlight. Horn? Not as such. Futility because I was exiting. The lighting had been fine. Fun fact: Shortly afterwards I used Thurlwood steel lock, just because.

[Arthur Marshall]

24 minutes ago, GilesMorris said:

Well... Things have changed! Last time I went through Harecastle was around 1974 and in an act of great futility the tunnel bloke complained bitterly that my lighting was an oil lamp and a flashlight. Horn? Not as such. Futility because I was exiting. The lighting had been fine. Fun fact: Shortly afterwards I used Thurlwood steel lock, just because.

It's tightened up a bit since someone died in it a few years ago.

38 minutes ago, Paul C said:

The booking is recent (only last year onwards?) due to water shortage.

I don't think that's the reason - booking predates last year. I think it's more to save paying the blokes when no-one wants to come through - most people now hit it in the mornings so the staff shove off at their unpaid lunch time. When I booked the other day, there was only one other booked for the afternoon and they were obviously hoping he'd arrive early, like I did.

[ditchcrawler]

15 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

It's tightened up a bit since someone died in it a few years ago.

I don't think that's the reason - booking predates last year. I think it's more to save paying the blokes when no-one wants to come through - most people now hit it in the mornings so the staff shove off at their unpaid lunch time. When I booked the other day, there was only one other booked for the afternoon and they were obviously hoping he'd arrive early, like I did.

I thought it was post Covid

[roland elsdon]

Is there a bss requirement for a horn?

Never heard of that. I normally wander up to the hazards people hoot at and just say ‘hoot hoot as thats my audible warning signal.’.

If they cant see the funking great bow or hear the unsilenced lister then they are blind and deaf , and a little noise going peep peep 30 foot from the din aint going to be heard.

 

[ditchcrawler]

55 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

Is there a bss requirement for a horn?

Never heard of that. I normally wander up to the hazards people hoot at and just say ‘hoot hoot as thats my audible warning signal.’.

If they cant see the funking great bow or hear the unsilenced lister then they are blind and deaf , and a little noise going peep peep 30 foot from the din aint going to be heard.

 

Bylaw 

but says whistle it I remember right

Edited April 9, 2023 by ditchcrawler

[Paul C]

Its not so much to warn of your presence but to communicate with other boaters using the standardised signals, eg 3 short beeps.

[Arthur Marshall]

9 hours ago, Paul C said:

Its not so much to warn of your presence but to communicate with other boaters using the standardised signals, eg 3 short beeps.

Who mostly can't hear them as they're standing on top of a thumping great engine, and who wouldn't understand them if they did....

[howardang]

11 hours ago, roland elsdon said:

Is there a bss requirement for a horn?

Never heard of that. I normally wander up to the hazards people hoot at and just say ‘hoot hoot as thats my audible warning signal.’.

If they cant see the funking great bow or hear the unsilenced lister then they are blind and deaf , and a little noise going peep peep 30 foot from the din aint going to be heard.

 

Yes. Part of your licence conditions asks that you ill will comply with the Bye Laws.

 

An extract of the Bye Laws:-

 

Sound signals 12. (1) Every power-driven vessel navigating on any canal shall be
furnished with an efficient whistle.

 

The actual signals are well know and are set out in the Bye Laws which can be found on C&RT web site.

 

Whether a boater agrees with this or not/doesn't agree with the sense of them or not is irrelevant. By purchasing a licence you have said that you will comply with them, and it is  your responsibility to read and understand them. 

 

BSS does not cover such things but CRT Bye Laws certainly do.

Howard

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by howardang

[Lady M]

IIRC there used to be a BSS requirement for a horn on a boat used for private pleasure but this no longer exists.  Harecastle safety guidelines are that, if you break down and have to stop in the tunnel, you hoot your horn.

[matty40s]

8 minutes ago, howardang said:

Yes.

An extract of the Bye Laws:-

Sound signals 12. (1) Every power-driven vessel navigating on any canal shall be
furnished with an efficient whistle.

 

10 hours ago, roland elsdon said:

Is there a bss requirement for a horn?

Therefore NO, there is no BSS requirement for a horn.

 

[haggis]

Sound signals apart , I don't think I would go into a tunnel now without a fully functioning loud horn.