CIN number

[KatherineS]

Hi 

I purchased a boat in October 2017 from a reputable dealer. 
I have recently sent the boat for sale at anther brockets yard. 
They have informed me that they cannot sell the boat as she does not have a CIN number. 
The boat has a plate showing the fit out by floating homes 2003 

however a builders plate is nowhere! 

Do I have a case against the agents that sold me the boat in 2017??
 (I understand it’s illegal to sell without one) also how has the boat gained a CRT licence without the CIN number. 
 

As I am not the original owner I cannot get a CIN number unless I pay £3/5k 

if I was the original it would cost £750! 
can anybody explain why such a huge difference in cost? What does it involve to get a CIN number? 

 

I am at a loss what to do with my boat, any advice would be appreciated. Thank you 

[Tony Brooks]

To get a CIN number, the boat has to comply with the Recreational Craft Regulations (UK RCD). This involves an inspection, stability test, and a LOT of paperwork. It also needs the person doing the inspection to have access to a whole raft of ISO/BS standards that the boat has to comply with.  The original owner would already have the CIN number and all the RCD paperwork should be in place from the builder.

 

Some very vocal members say the need to get retrospective certification before a broker will sell your boat is a myth, you have proved them wrong, but other brokers may handle it and many private buyers seem happy to buy non-compliant boats, with or without a price reduction.

 

You might have a case against the person (probably not the broker) who sold it to you, and Citizens Advice will be the first step. At one time Hampshire Trading Standards were the RCR enforcement body so they MIGHT be willing to have a very informal phone chat. As in all things legal, taking court action with no guarantee of success could easily cost you more than getting the bat certified.

[David Mack]

3 hours ago, KatherineS said:

Do I have a case against the agents that sold me the boat in 2017??

I doubt it, but in any event I think you would have to bring an action within 6 years, so your possible window of opportunity is running out.

3 hours ago, KatherineS said:

 (I understand it’s illegal to sell without one)

Yes for a new boat, but much debated on here whether that actually applies to second hand boat sales.

3 hours ago, KatherineS said:

how has the boat gained a CRT licence without the CIN number. 

Because you don't need a CIN number to licence a boat.

 

Have you tried selling through another broker or a private sale?

[matty40s]

Take it to another broker. 

 

The brokers have just had a scaremonering training session from the organisation that has come up with the cartels latest regulations, its money for the boys time again.

You will have 20 years of provenance with the boat, it is more than 5 years old, there will be a hull number welded on somewhere, with the fitters plate, this should suffice for all but the most box ticking idiot.

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by matty40s

[Quattrodave]

Sell it privately.

[LadyG]

Sell it via the original broker.

At the moment there is high demand, high market value, get it sold.

There is a sales bit on this forum btw

[Tracy D'arth]

Only consider legal action if you have plenty of money to lose.  The only beneficiaries of the courts are the lawyers.

[matty40s]

Post 1997, although it was very muddy at the beginning, which is where your boat sits.

 

Hull HIN number is welded on when the hull is built, if the hull builder is the boat fitter as well, this number becomes the CIN.

If there is a different fitter, then the build will receive a CIN after completion and the RCD is signed off. 

According to the RCD, there is also now a WIN number.

This must be changed at every major change to the boats equipment or build ie, replacing an Aldi boiler with a Diesel webasto, installing a large solar array, or replacing and upgrading the oven/hob etc.

...and a new WIN applied for. Or something like that.

Completely unworkable as it exists at present in the inland canal network as the testing and  checking system isnt fit for purpose.

 

Before 1997 build, you can do what you like so long as it satisfies the BSS/C, ridiculous.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Hull HIN number is welded on when the hull is built, if the hull builder is the boat fitter as well, this number becomes the CIN.

If there is a different fitter, then the build will receive a CIN after completion and the RCD is signed off. 

According to the RCD, there is also now a WIN number.

 

 

I don't think that is correct, but if you can point me to the documentation that supports that I'd be grateful. Always happy to learn.

 

As far as I am aware the CIN replaced the HIN and the WIN has replaced the CIN. They are identical but just a change in terminology at each new issue of the RCD / RCR

 

10 minutes ago, matty40s said:

This must be changed at every major change to the boats equipment or build ie, replacing an Aldi boiler with a Diesel webasto, installing a large solar array, or replacing and upgrading the oven/hob etc.

...and a new WIN applied for. Or something like that.

 

You know that is absolutely incorrect - just because you don't agree with the rules, you shouldn't mislead newbies who do not have your experience and knowledge.

 

What constitutes a 'major change' is shown within the regulations.

[PaulJ]

The workaround seems to be to sell it with say a £3000 price reduction on the understanding its to cover the cost of the buyer to have the documentation done.Everyone is covered then and even your twitchy broker should be happy.

They wont have it done of course but will be very happy for that few grand youve just given them back and a bargain price boat..

Or as Matty40s says -just find another broker.

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

Sell it yourself, save the brokerage fees, make more money, have less hassle.

[matty40s]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You know that is absolutely incorrect - just because you don't agree with the rules, you shouldn't mislead newbies who do not have your experience and knowledge.

 

What constitutes a 'major change' is shown within the regulations.

I am not misleading anybody.

 

I suggest you discuss this with the RCD organisation, as those equipment  changes were all deemed sufficient at the recent presentation to brokers.

See if you can get an updated pdf for us all.

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

As far as I am aware the CIN replaced the HIN and the WIN has replaced the CIN. They are identical but just a change in terminology at each new issue of the RCD / RCR

The HIN is always the same, it should be welded to the boat.

It becomes the CIN number if the hull builder is also the fitter. 

If not, there will be a new CIN number once craft complete....so there will be boats with one, (or in case of a lined sailaway) or 2 CIN numbers and a HIN number.

[Mike Hurley]

If the OP says what make boat it is maybe someone here would know where the number is likely to be welded? Or are they welded anywhere they feel like.

[matty40s]

1 hour ago, Mike Hurley said:

If the OP says what make boat it is maybe someone here would know where the number is likely to be welded? Or are they welded anywhere they feel like.

Yes

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Mike Hurley said:

If the OP says what make boat it is maybe someone here would know where the number is likely to be welded? Or are they welded anywhere they feel like.

 

The HIN / CIN / WIN must be located in two places, one must be hidden away with the location only known to the manufacturer (so no DIY number changing can take place) and the other is recommended to be on the starboard side of the rear (transom) of the boat, either cut into the fabric (stamped, welded etc) of the boat, or on a permanently attached plate.

[MtB]

10 hours ago, KatherineS said:

Do I have a case against the agents that sold me the boat in 2017??

 

I very much doubt it if they really were acting as "agent".  You would have to go after the owner of the boat selling it, not their agent. 

 

A sales agent acts on behalf of the seller, nothing more than the seller's 'mouthpiece' communicating the seller's information and wishes to the world. Your contract to buy was with the seller, even if their agent prepared the documentation. 

 

 

[matty40s]

On 29/03/2023 at 07:55, matty40s said:

Take it to another broker. 

 

The brokers have just had a scaremonering training session from the organisation that has come up with the cartels latest regulations, its money for the boys time again

 

I have it from reliable authority, that the only broker to conveniently have missed attending above session , and therefore can profess to know nothing about it, is a very well known broker not a long distance from Grand Union Lock 13, Buckby Bottom Lock. 

Could be a safe bet to sell your boat.

Edited March 31, 2023 by matty40s

[David Mack]

On 29/03/2023 at 14:27, Alan de Enfield said:

The HIN / CIN / WIN must be located in two places, one must be hidden away with the location only known to the manufacturer (so no DIY number changing can take place)

But it does rather stretch credibility to think that every boat built under the regulations has a location so hidden away that the boat owner would never find it, while at the same time being sufficienly accessible that if ever called upon to prove that the craft was properly marked in the first place, the manufacturer  could find it again years later.

[Tonka]

28 minutes ago, David Mack said:

But it does rather stretch credibility to think that every boat built under the regulations has a location so hidden away that the boat owner would never find it, while at the same time being sufficienly accessible that if ever called upon to prove that the craft was properly marked in the first place, the manufacturer  could find it again years later.

If builder still alive and or records kept somwhee

[Tacet]

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

But it does rather stretch credibility to think that every boat built under the regulations has a location so hidden away that the boat owner would never find it, while at the same time being sufficienly accessible that if ever called upon to prove that the craft was properly marked in the first place, the manufacturer  could find it again years later.

And how can I be sure that my boat is correctly marked in the very secret place?

[PaulD]

2 hours ago, Tacet said:

And how can I be sure that my boat is correctly marked in the very secret place?

It will be near the golden rivet.

 

[Momac]

4 hours ago, Tonka said:

If builder still alive and or records kept somwhee

That's a good point. The company that built my boat no longer exists.

 

 

[PaulJ]

6 hours ago, David Mack said:

But it does rather stretch credibility to think that every boat built under the regulations has a location so hidden away that the boat owner would never find it, while at the same time being sufficienly accessible that if ever called upon to prove that the craft was properly marked in the first place, the manufacturer  could find it again years later.

Im guessing that each builders would probably use the same location? Sure Floating Homes used/ were/became Darke Group. Interesting company- my cousin also had a three year old Floating Homes boat with no RCD at all on it for a while.

Ive only had to do RCD once and although I can remember exactly where the hidden plate is in my case -I think I remember that when you register the (then) HIN number you also gave the location to RYA. Could be wrong on this though-while ago and I dont tend to retain things I have no interest in.

Seemed a bit pointless as if you removed the obvious HIN number , how could anyone then find out where the hidden one was..

 

[Alan de Enfield]

48 minutes ago, PaulJ said:

 

Seemed a bit pointless as if you removed the obvious HIN number , how could anyone then find out where the hidden one was..

 

 

I believe that if the boat was stolen and another plate / number added then the original owner would know the HIN and the manufacturer contacted to provide / prove the old HIN. 

[Poppin]

This is all very confusing. It does seem that a lined sailaway comes with a HIN and RCD anex iii, and the person who finishes the boat can simply apply for a CIN from the RYA for the price of £35. As long as they don't sell within 5 years. This would require a WIN. 

 

Is that correct?