Mooring Problems

[MtB]

13 minutes ago, perfectlydressed said:

 

'She' actually boy and the only one getting arsey was you in your assumptions, feel free to scroll on...

 

 

I will, thanks. 

 

You clearly only want advice you agree with.

 

 

[magnetman]

1 hour ago, perfectlydressed said:

I

 

 

Ah. OK. 

[Nightwatch]

I’d keep quiet, keep me gob shut and stay where I am if I’m happy with the deal that I have had for two years.

 

Another thought. If………you get a refund, then you have enjoyed two years mooring at no cost, you shouldn’t be surprised if the actual land owner is unaware of this that he comes hunting you for two years mooring cost that might actually be more than you have paid. He may even do that if you don’t get a refund.

 

Have CRT received any contributions from this arrangement?

Edited March 27, 2023 by Nightwatch

[Mad Harold]

Are you also paying CRT's "water rent"

This is for CRT's permission to use a private mooring. Usually charged at 50% of average moorings in the area.

You can then declare your boat's home mooring, but if not, you will be a "continuous cruiser" and bound by the T's + C'c.

Best thing to do in your situation is pay your moorings and keep your head down and not open a can of worms.

 

 

[Nightwatch]

1 minute ago, Mad Harold said:

Are you also paying CRT's "water rent"

This is for CRT's permission to use a private mooring. Usually charged at 50% of average moorings in the area.

You can then declare your boat's home mooring, but if not, you will be a "continuous cruiser" and bound by the T's + C'c.

Best thing to do in your situation is pay your moorings and keep your head down and not open a can of worms.

 

 

Great minds and all that!!

[MtB]

17 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

Are you also paying CRT's "water rent"

This is for CRT's permission to use a private mooring. Usually charged at 50% of average moorings in the area.

You can then declare your boat's home mooring, but if not, you will be a "continuous cruiser" and bound by the T's + C'c.

Best thing to do in your situation is pay your moorings and keep your head down and not open a can of worms.

 

 

 

Its a good point. On one of my moorings, when I moved there I updated my home mooring declaration on the CRT site and it made me select the mooring from a drop-down list of approved moorings. So by extension, we can surmise that if any mooring appears on the CRT drop-down list, it must be fully legit in the eyes of CRT and the CRT 'water rent' is being paid (or isn't due in the first place as some are not liable).

 

So although the OP appears to have 'thrown their toys' and deleted their original post, if they go to the CRT site and try to change their home mooring declaration, they can probably look and see if their mooring appears on the list of CRT approved legitimate moorings.

 

Consequently I'd have though this problem should have revealed itself right back at the beginning when the OP first took the mooring, had they declared their new home mooring to CRT. So perhaps they didn't. Or they don't have a mooring there at all in the first place.

 

If all the above is correct, the OP does not really appear quite to stack up properly if declared their disputed home mooring to CRT. Or perhaps they declared as a CCer in which case they've been dead lucky not to have fallen into the enforcement net. 

 

Or maybe they HAVE fallen into enforcement now, which is what prompted the original question.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by MtB
Clarify.

[Graham Davis]

1 hour ago, perfectlydressed said:

you ask what the problem is?

Simply because its not legal so a legal transaction should have not have been entered into!

Who says it isn't legal?
You are making a statement with no back-up; cite what Laws have been broken.

1 hour ago, perfectlydressed said:

Can I rent out your car even if you say I can without meeting the legal requirements?

If a mooring is not legal would that not have an impact on my insurance for example?

I have evidence from the land registry.

Cars have nothing to do with land renting.
Land Registry proves nothing in this case.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, MtB said:

So although the OP appears to have 'thrown their toys' and deleted their original post,

 

It is still there in its entirity in post #3

 

 

But for reference ................

 

Posted by :

 

@perfectlydressed

 

I have been informed over the weekend that a privately owned mooring site/boat yard was not the legally registered land owner with the land registry during the two years I paid in good faith for a mooring.

Does this mean they shouldn't have rented out the land ?

[magnetman]

The list of CRT approved moorings is interesting. 

 

In the '95 act it goes on about having a place where the boat can lawfully be left etc but it also says the board needs to be satisfied. 

 

One wonders if this automatically generated list may be a precursor to the board deciding to not be satisfied unless the mooring is "one of theirs". This could put quite a lot more boats onto no home mooring licences. 

 

At the moment I think one can add one's own mooring away from CRT water but that must be done off the website. 

 

 

[MtB]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

At the moment I think one can add one's own mooring away from CRT water but that must be done off the website. 

 

 

I would imagine that must be possible, but I'd also imagine it would prompt review by a human bean that your "place where the vessel may lawfully be kept" is legitimate. 

 

So once again had the OP done this, the problem would have arisen two years ago when they took the mooring, not now.

 

The while premise of the OP now looks dead fishy to me. 

 

 

[magnetman]

In terms of saving admin having to verify things and instead putting that work onto computers then it would make an awful lot of sense to simply say you have to have a CRT mooring or your boat will be classed as bona fide for navigation moving every 14 days. 

 

This would simplify a lot of things and cut out all sorts of scam opportunities IF cc licence costs go up a lot as is widely predicted. 

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I would imagine that must be possible, but I'd also imagine it would prompt review by a human bean that your "place where the vessel may lawfully be kept" is legitimate. 

 

So once again had the OP done this, the problem would have arisen two years ago when they took the mooring, not now.

 

The while premise of the OP now looks dead fishy to me. 

 

 

I think you might be onto something about the CRT picking it up and the boat going into enforcement. 

 

I guess the OP deleted the post when they realised everything on here is widely visible public information.

 

It would be interesting to have more details. K&A I think has some interesting things going on with offside canal bank land. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by magnetman

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

In terms of saving admin having to verify things and instead putting that work onto computers then it would make an awful lot of sense to simply say you have to have a CRT mooring or your boat will be classed as bona fide for navigation moving every 14 days. 

 

This would simplify a lot of things and cut out all sorts of scam opportunities. 

I think you might be onto something about the CRT picking it up and the boat going into enforcement. 

 

I guess the OP deleted the post when they realised everything on here is widely visible public information..

 

I find myself wondering if the OP is actually the person someone renting out moorings illegitimately, fishing for information about how they might be found out. 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

If you read her first Post on here in March. She says she’s a CCer, and now she says she’s had and been paying for a mooring for two years, if she can’t remember what’s she has previously written and posted???

 

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Jerra]

To me the situation seems fairly simple and clear.

 

1.  Somebody owns the land.

 

2.  The maria/boatyard 9or whatever) seeks permission to sublet the moorings.  This is granted.

 

3.  Boat owner rents mooring without realising he is renting with permission of the landowner rather than the marina.

 

All perfectly legal and simple.   What is the problem?

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Jerra said:

To me the situation seems fairly simple and clear.

 

1.  Somebody owns the land.

 

2.  The maria/boatyard 9or whatever) seeks permission to sublet the moorings.  This is granted.

 

3.  Boat owner rents mooring without realising he is renting with permission of the landowner rather than the marina.

 

All perfectly legal and simple.   What is the problem?

 

 

Yep.

 

Its beginning to look as though the OP has been renting an illegitimate mooring and been told by CRT to "Continue with your journey".

 

But for reasons we haven't been given, she refuses to explain properly what prompted her initial question (since deleted). Embarrassment about being had for a mug, perhaps.

 

 

Or maybe its simpler than that. Is being pursued by CRT for the EOG charge.

 

 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

9 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Yep.

 

Its beginning to look as though the OP has been renting an illegitimate mooring and been told by CRT to "Continue with your journey".

 

But for reasons we haven't been given, she refuses to explain properly what prompted her initial question (since deleted). Embarrassment about being had for a mug, perhaps.

 

 

Or maybe its simpler than that. Is being pursued by CRT for the EOG charge.

 

 

A week ago she said she was a CCer??

Has she been mooring illegally at the bottom of someone’s garden, paying moorings to the person, who possibly only rented the property and they have been sussed out by the home owner and CaRT?

 Who knows, I imagine she will be liberal with the truth and facts.

Edited March 27, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Hudds Lad]

Ghost mooring?

 

Whatever happens, i don't think the OP is getting her cash back 

[Ex Brummie]

Quite some tears ago, I was one of several boaters renting a mooring on what was assumed to be private land, and it was only found out when one of the other moorers went to the BWB office to pay their licence and they were told they were moored on BWB land that was not an authorised mooring. The assumed owners who already had a lease for adjacent moorings, were given the option by BWB of developing a complete length of mooring and leasing it, or giving it up and being sued for the 'illegal' use. 

BWB could not take it on as the only access and parking was through the owners land. That site was developed and became a good investment to the owners and is still a sought after location. The last thing I thought was someone owes me money. I was more interesred in retaining the facility I had had and was more than happy with.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Ex Brummie

[magnetman]

I wonder if there are occasional circumstances where someone rents out towpath moorings to people who don't realise the towpath all "belongs" to the CRT. 

 

I wouldn't think it would go on for two years but you never know. 

 

On rivers such as the Thames there are hundreds of different riparian owners of land both on the original towing path side and on the other side. The navigation authority own some land as well but not all that much. 

 

Canals are different but would everyone know this?

[MtB]

14 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

A week ago she said she was a CCer??

 

Indeed, and a good spot of yours.

 

 

[David Mack]

14 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

Quite some tears ago...

It didn't work out well  then...😢

[dmr]

It was quite common in the olde days to be a bit less precise about land ownership and the canals are olde.

Lots of changes of ownership    Landowner....canal company.....another canal company......railways.....BW.......CRT   with possibly parts going into private or council ownership at some stage. There are loads of places where the ownership is assumed but not clear, various grandfathers rights issues and informal renting of land. This is part of canal life. I suspect a fair few places where a landowner, or land custodian, is renting out a mooring without official permission from CRT.

If the mooring is good and the price is ok then just keep your head down and enjoy it while it lasts.

 

[exmember290323]

2 hours ago, Graham Davis said:

Who says it isn't legal?
You are making a statement with no back-up; cite what Laws have been broken.

Cars have nothing to do with land renting.
Land Registry proves nothing in this case.

Fraud by deception, pretty stupid to make judgements and assumptions without knowing all the facts.

1 hour ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

A week ago she said she was a CCer??

Has she been mooring illegally at the bottom of someone’s garden, paying moorings to the person, who possibly only rented the property and they have been sussed out by the home owner and CaRT?

 Who knows, I imagine she will be liberal with the truth and facts.

I am a CCer but at the time of having the so called mooring I obviously was not, pretty simple for any normal person.

Where do you draw the conclusion that I will be liberal with the facts?

Post your location if up north and we can clarify it for you at your boat?

 

2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

You like to speculate you don't ya what a queen you are...

Yep.

 

Its beginning to look as though the OP has been renting an illegitimate mooring and been told by CRT to "Continue with your journey".

 

But for reasons we haven't been given, she refuses to explain properly what prompted her initial question (since deleted). Embarrassment about being had for a mug, perhaps.

 

 

Or maybe its simpler than that. Is being pursued by CRT for the EOG charge.

 

 

 

[Mike Todd]

4 hours ago, perfectlydressed said:

because I was under the impression its not legal to rent out something you don't legally own while pretending to be the landlord and having people sign tenant agreements.

Actually I paid for a mooring and that's not what I got because for a mooring to be legal surely it must meet legal requirements otherwise how can it be define as a mooring.

 

The general situation is the opposite of what you assert. There was quite a bit of publicity a couple of weeks or so ago regarding companies that acquire the right to rent out apartments (which they do no own) and appear to be the landlord, except then work needs to be done.

[Mad Harold]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

It was quite common in the olde days to be a bit less precise about land ownership and the canals are olde.

Lots of changes of ownership    Landowner....canal company.....another canal company......railways.....BW.......CRT   with possibly parts going into private or council ownership at some stage. There are loads of places where the ownership is assumed but not clear, various grandfathers rights issues and informal renting of land. This is part of canal life. I suspect a fair few places where a landowner, or land custodian, is renting out a mooring without official permission from CRT.

If the mooring is good and the price is ok then just keep your head down and enjoy it while it lasts.

 

The ownership or the rights that a piece of canal bank has can be quite complex.

I know of one private mooring who's mooring rights are difficult to completely understand.

There are some half a dozen boats there at the moment, and the moorings have been used uneventfully for several years.

That was untill one rather silly moorer complained to CRT about the level of the moorings going down when a boat went through the lock.(it's a short pound)

The result was CRT came and had a look and declared the mooring illegal.

The landowner produced documents to show that the mooring rights were for an old mill that was on the site, and that these rights were still valid as the landowner lived on the site.

CRT of course disagreed but so far have not taken any action, as it was pointed out that they had accepted 'water rent' from the moored boats, so they were in fact accepting that this was a valid mooring.