Hi All

[LadyG]

9 hours ago, mightyslay3r said:

yes PD.. it includes council tax. what other licence would i need if i have a canal licence from the get go.. 

yes my friend, we know this.. but.. renting out incurs repair costs, also its an income and will have an effect on benefits so will increase the marina charges....

But so will your capital from selling a house. I think it's £16K, but not sure if that is correct or per person or any other details. All this means you might need to plan carefully. Due to the expense of boat maintenance and it's irregular nature, I would always want to keep £5000 to £15000 as a contingency fund. Financial planning is difficult in these troubled times.

When you purchase a boat I think it's best done on the first of the month as licences may be annual, but start per month.

 

On 25/02/2023 at 19:59, David Mack said:

 

If you are going narrow then I would suggest you seriously consider 70 ft. You are going to need a double bed cabin for you and the other half, a single bed cabin for the daughter, bathroom (accessible to both cabins), kitchen and living area as well as storage for clothes, bedding, boaty stuff and all your personal posessions. That's a lot to pack into 50-55. If you look at the broker ads for boats this size, most will only have one sleeping cabin. A put-me-up sofa is fine for occasional visitors, but isn't something you would want to rely on every night. And because 50-58 ft is every newbie's choice, and many boaters are a little frightened of a full length boat, 70 footers can often be no more expensive to buy (although licence and moorings will cost more).

I think OP is based in North, so a 57ft would be better, and indeed more available.

With three adults I would look for one with a cratch, that will store fuel and Welly boots in winter, and a sitting area in summer. I'm not convinced about semi trad because they are not sheltered, seating is not often going to be comfortable and waterproof.

[IanD]

40 minutes ago, LadyG said:

But so will your capital from selling a house. I think it's £16K, but not sure if that is correct or per person or any other details. All this means you might need to plan carefully. Due to the expense of boat maintenance and it's irregular nature, I would always want to keep £5000 to £15000 as a contingency fund. Financial planning is difficult in these troubled times.

When you purchase a boat I think it's best done on the first of the month as licences may be annual, but start per month.

 

I think OP is based in North, so a 57ft would be better, and indeed more available.

With three adults I would look for one with a cratch, that will store fuel and Welly boots in winter, and a sitting area in summer. I'm not convinced about semi trad because they are not sheltered, seating is not often going to be comfortable and waterproof.

 

I assume you mean seating for the steerer?

 

I think you're taking your preferences as a single boater and assuming this applies to a family of three, and that's not necessarily correct for them even if it is for you 😉

 

In bad weather a trad stern is great for a single boater, not so good for two (even with an oversized hatch), and definitely not good if you want to have three (or four) people out at the stern while travelling.

 

A cruiser stern is great when moored (and you don't need the bow so much as a sitting area) but horrible when travelling in bad weather.

 

A semi trad is a bit of both, not as good as a trad for one in bad weather but offers partial shelter for more, certainly better than a cruiser -- but isn't so good as a cruiser when moored, or travelling in good weather.

 

Unlike a trad, both cruiser and semi-trad allow the bow to be enclosed if the boat is built like that, giving more space inside (e.g. reverse layout) -- especially good for 3 people in a 58' boat.

 

Depending on your expected use (how much time travelling or moored?) and when you expect to be boating (mostly summer or all year round?) and how many people are on the boat, any of the three might be the best choice -- as usual there's no "best" solution for everybody... 🙂

[Lily Rose]

re semi-trad, some people seem to think semi trad sterns are a compromise that in some respects give you the worst of both worlds. My own experience, apart from a single hire years ago, is trad so I can't comment personally.

 

re benefits (universal credit, other benefits may be different) I believe they gradually start to reduce if you have capital of £6k or more and stop completely when you hit £16k. I suspect that your capital (e.g. from a house sale) would affect you and your partner but would not affect your daughter's benefits but you would need to research this or seek advice from Citizens Advice or similar.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Lily Rose

[cuthound]

10 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I assume you mean seating for the steerer?

 

I think you're taking your preferences as a single boater and assuming this applies to a family of three, and that's not necessarily correct for them even if it is for you 😉

 

In bad weather a trad stern is great for a single boater, not so good for two (even with an oversized hatch), and definitely not good if you want to have three (or four) people out at the stern while travelling.

 

A cruiser stern is great when moored (and you don't need the bow so much as a sitting area) but horrible when travelling in bad weather.

 

A semi trad is a bit of both, not as good as a trad for one in bad weather but offers partial shelter for more, certainly better than a cruiser -- but isn't so good as a cruiser when moored, or travelling in good weather.

 

Unlike a trad, both cruiser and semi-trad allow the bow to be enclosed if the boat is built like that, giving more space inside (e.g. reverse layout) -- especially good for 3 people in a 58' boat.

 

Depending on your expected use (how much time travelling or moored?) and when you expect to be boating (mostly summer or all year round?) and how many people are on the boat, any of the three might be the best choice -- as usual there's no "best" solution for everybody... 🙂

 

Whilst I generally agree with your comments regarding different stern types, my oversize hatch is large enough for myself to steer whilst Mrs Hound sits comfortably on a folding bar stool. It is acceptable for the steerer and two other people to stand comfortably whilst cruising. Not only is is wide, but it is long.

Edited February 28, 2023 by cuthound
To remove a full stop masquerading as a space.

[IanD]

13 minutes ago, Lily Rose said:

re semi-trad, some people seem to think semi trad sterns are a compromise that in some respects give you the worst of both worlds. My own experience, apart from a single hire years ago, is trad so I can't comment personally.

 

re benefits (universal credit, other benefits may be different) I believe they gradually start to reduce if you have capital of £6k or more and stop completely when you hit £16k. I suspect that your capital (e.g. from a house sale) would affect you and your partner but would not affect your daughter's benefits but you would need to research this or seem advice from Citizens Advice or similar.

... and some other people think the opposite 🙂

 

Over the years I've hired and travelled on private boats with all three types of stern; when it's nice and sunny my favourite is a cruiser, when it's cold and rainy and windy and everyone else is inside (swine!) it's a trad -- especially if there's a 500,000BTU steam boiler just inside the doors, but overall my preference as the least bad compromise is a semi-trad. Because on a narrowboat, *everything* is a compromise...

 

So long as it's done properly without an uncomfortable bar across the inside top, with a backrest instead of sloping the wrong way, and with cushions to sit on -- just like a lot aren't, which explains why many people don't like them. In my opinion (others are available) it's a similar case to pumpout toilets -- done badly (again, which many are, see comments on CWDF about rotting poo tanks and leaky/smelly pipes) they can be horrible, but that doesn't mean they're not good when done properly.

 

And others will disagree as you said, and that's absolutely fine, it's all down to personal preference... 😉

 

11 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Whilst I generally agree with your comments regarding different stern types, my oversize hatch is large enough for myself to steer whilst Mrs Hound sits comfortably on a folding bar stool. It is acceptable for the steerer and two other people to stand comfortably whilst cruising. Not only is is wide, but it is long.

 

Agreed, so long as the people are happy standing for long periods. Many aren't, especially with advancing years, and want/need a seat, and then a trad stern isn't so good.

 

(also not many boats have your type of trad stern with a really big hatch, and it's pretty much impossible to retrofit)

 

YMMV 🙂

Edited February 28, 2023 by IanD

[cuthound]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

... and some other people think the opposite 🙂

 

Over the years I've hired and travelled on private boats with all three types of stern; when it's nice and sunny my favourite is a cruiser, when it's cold and rainy and windy and everyone else is inside (swine!) it's a trad -- especially if there's a 500,000BTU steam boiler just inside the doors, but overall my preference as the least bad compromise is a semi-trad. Because on a narrowboat, *everything* is a compromise...

 

So long as it's done properly without an uncomfortable bar across the inside top, with a backrest instead of sloping the wrong way, and with cushions to sit on -- just like a lot aren't, which explains why many people don't like them. In my opinion (others are available) it's a similar case to pumpout toilets -- done badly (again, which many are, see comments on CWDF about rotting poo tanks and leaky/smelly pipes) they can be horrible, but that doesn't mean they're not good when done properly.

 

And others will disagree as you said, and that's absolutely fine, it's all down to personal preference... 😉

Agreed, so long as the people are happy standing for long periods. Many aren't, especially with advancing years, and want/need a seat.

 

(also not many boats have your type of trad stern with a really big hatch, and it's pretty much impossible to retrofit)

 

YMMV 🙂

 

Very easy to fit an oversize hatch to.a modern, rear engined trad, as most have the bulkhead between engine and cabin space in front of the engine. In this case it really is just a question of cutting a bigger hole for the new, larger hatch, adding appropriate runners and tidying up the lining.

 

I have seen a couple of semi-trads converted to trads with oversized hatches simply by extending the roof, (including welding up the old hatch), adding the new hatch and runners, lining out and adding stern doors. However not all semi-trads can have this done. It depends on how much the cabin sides curve in towards the stern. Many semi-trads get this wrong so that when stern doors are added they stick out too far.

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Very easy to fit an oversize hatch to.a modern, rear engined trad, as most have the bulkhead between engine and cabin space in front of the engine. In this case it really is just a question of cutting a bigger hole for the new, larger hatch, adding appropriate runners and tidying up the lining.

 

I have seen a couple of semi-trads converted to trads with oversized hatches simply by extending the roof, (including welding up the old hatch), adding the new hatch and runners, lining out and adding stern doors. However not all semi-trads can have this done. It depends on how much the cabin sides curve in towards the stern. Many semi-trads get this wrong so that when stern doors are added they stick out too far.

 

You're right, retrofitting to a modern trad is possible, much harder for an old-style trad with an engine room. I wonder how many of each are out there, any idea?

 

Your solution is undoubtedly a good (but not very common) one for you -- and like all the other solutions (including mine!) it won't work so well for everyone, which was my point 🙂

 

As I said, many semi-trads get things wrong, including doors that stick out too far. Actually, many boats of all types get various things wrong due to poor design/building... 😉

Edited February 28, 2023 by IanD

[Hudds Lad]

My gripe with cruiser sterns (only experience is from hiring and observing others) is the positioning of the controls out of easy reach, why are they so often at knee height?

You're forced to either bob up and down, or sit on some awful rail that puts you in a bad tiller operating position.

 

My other gripe is you get a load of folk on the back generally getting in the way, but that's a personal issue  

[magnetman]

Whatever type of stern you have on a narrow boat don't sit or stand inside the arc of the tiller when steering the boat. If the rudder is fouled it can, in unusual situations, turn the tiller bar into a lever which is capable of throwing someone in the water or pinning them against the stern rail. 

 

Some very nasty accidents have happened like this although I think most of them were when going astern which is obviously likely to whip the tiller round specially if you hit a low edge which is below the level of the stern fender.

 

Not ideal.

 

 

[IanD]

13 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Whatever type of stern you have on a narrow boat don't sit or stand inside the arc of the tiller when steering the boat. If the rudder is fouled it can, in unusual situations, turn the tiller bar into a lever which is capable of throwing someone in the water or pinning them against the stern rail. 

 

Some very nasty accidents have happened like this although I think most of them were when going astern which is obviously likely to whip the tiller round specially if you hit a low edge which is below the level of the stern fender.

 

Not ideal.

 

 

When I was planning my boat, I was told that Tim Tyler refused to build in "suicide seats" as a matter of principle, and so I'd have to get them added afterwards if I wanted them. Which I didn't, obviously... 😉

 

The risk is mainly (entirely?) when going astern, but nevertheless several people have been killed this way over the years 😞

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

52 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Whilst I generally agree with your comments regarding different stern types, my oversize hatch is large enough for myself to steer whilst Mrs Hound sits comfortably on a folding bar stool. It is acceptable for the steerer and two other people to stand comfortably whilst cruising. Not only is is wide, but it is long.

That sounds very much like mine.

Just measured it, the slide hatch is 5’ long giving a standing space of 4’2”.

Its a great space for two, one steering and one sat up on the side.

But 3 people and 2 dogs can manage.

 

 

Its also handy for hopping down into when doing locks. 
In bad weather I pull the hatch as close to me as I can and stay dry from waist down.

I wouldn’t fancy being on a cruiser stern in the rain.

[Hudds Lad]

We made a couple of cushions for the sides of our trad that sit on the roof between the hatch side and rail, means we can both be on the back when out and about. I say we, all i did was buy the foam and cut to shape and buy the vinyl for the covers, J did all the fancy sewing and adding zips.  

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

2 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

We made a couple of cushions for the sides of our trad that sit on the roof between the hatch side and rail, means we can both be on the back when out and about. I say we, all i did was buy the foam and cut to shape and buy the vinyl for the covers, J did all the fancy sewing and adding zips.  

I used to do same til one of my visitors lost the cushion in the cut somewhere on the Leeds Liverpool.

He suffered from piles, and got his just reward.

 

[Hudds Lad]

17 minutes ago, Goliath said:

I used to do same til one of my visitors lost the cushion in the cut somewhere on the Leeds Liverpool.

He suffered from piles, and got his just reward.

 

They wedge in so not easy to dislodge, and have already survived the acid test of the BiL

 

Although now you've made me tempt fate haven't you, you little tinker  

[mightyslay3r]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

 

I assume you mean seating for the steerer?

 

I think you're taking your preferences as a single boater and assuming this applies to a family of three, and that's not necessarily correct for them even if it is for you 😉

 

In bad weather a trad stern is great for a single boater, not so good for two (even with an oversized hatch), and definitely not good if you want to have three (or four) people out at the stern while travelling.

 

A cruiser stern is great when moored (and you don't need the bow so much as a sitting area) but horrible when travelling in bad weather.

 

A semi trad is a bit of both, not as good as a trad for one in bad weather but offers partial shelter for more, certainly better than a cruiser -- but isn't so good as a cruiser when moored, or travelling in good weather.

 

Unlike a trad, both cruiser and semi-trad allow the bow to be enclosed if the boat is built like that, giving more space inside (e.g. reverse layout) -- especially good for 3 people in a 58' boat.

 

Depending on your expected use (how much time travelling or moored?) and when you expect to be boating (mostly summer or all year round?) and how many people are on the boat, any of the three might be the best choice -- as usual there's no "best" solution for everybody... 🙂

probably 7 months travel, 5 months marina

2 hours ago, Lily Rose said:

re semi-trad, some people seem to think semi trad sterns are a compromise that in some respects give you the worst of both worlds. My own experience, apart from a single hire years ago, is trad so I can't comment personally.

 

re benefits (universal credit, other benefits may be different) I believe they gradually start to reduce if you have capital of £6k or more and stop completely when you hit £16k. I suspect that your capital (e.g. from a house sale) would affect you and your partner but would not affect your daughter's benefits but you would need to research this or seek advice from Citizens Advice or similar.

the remainder of the house sale will be gifted in to my grand childrens saver accounts.. which i am the trustee of... if you get my drift... so we wont have any capital at all so to speak.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, mightyslay3r said:

probably 7 months travel, 5 months marina

 

A boat that is suitably equipped (electrically, water etc etc) for a 7 month family cruise will be a very different boat to a '2 weeks holiday a year' boat, just ensure you buy a properly equipped liveaboard boat, and not a 'leisure boat', or, you will have lots of fun spending lots of money to make it comfortably usable.

[mightyslay3r]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

A boat that is suitably equipped (electrically, water etc etc) for a 7 month family cruise will be a very different boat to a '2 weeks holiday a year' boat, just ensure you buy a properly equipped liveaboard boat, and not a 'leisure boat', or, you will have lots of fun spending lots of money to make it comfortably usable.

when i say 7 months cruising... i should have said 7 months in & out of the marina... we couldnt stand to be away from our grand children for very long  

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, mightyslay3r said:

when i say 7 months cruising... i should have said 7 months in & out of the marina... we couldnt stand to be away from our grand children for very long  

So what matters is how long you plan to be away from the marina from in each trip, how many trips per year and at what time of year -- for example if you're in the marina all winter and never way from it for more than a couple of weeks at a time in the summer, you'll have different needs to a boat taking month-long (or longer) trips away from the marina all year round -- and on trips will you be moving regularly or spending extended periods (up to 14 days, obviously) in different places.

 

This affects decisions about solar, toilets, heating and fuel, water, washing machine -- in fact pretty much everything... 😉

Edited February 28, 2023 by IanD

[mightyslay3r]

10 minutes ago, IanD said:

So what matters is how long you plan to be away from the marina from in each trip, how many trips per year and at what time of year -- for example if you're in the marina all winter and never way from it for more than a couple of weeks at a time in the summer, you'll have different needs to a boat taking month-long (or longer) trips away from the marina all year round -- and on trips will you be moving regularly or spending extended periods (up to 14 days, obviously) in different places.

 

This affects decisions about solar, toilets, heating and fuel, water, washing machine -- in fact pretty much everything... 😉

thanks Ian, short cruises each week, then maybe 2 or 3 x 2 week voyages...  my son has solar panels for us to fit to a boat if it isnt supplied with them, cassette toilet should be fine, fuel = full tank, water = full tank, the marina has a washer & dryer with 4 free tokens a month for each... heating fuel, hoping to get 1 with multi fuel burner... with be mainly timber with some coal....

Edited February 28, 2023 by mightyslay3r

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, mightyslay3r said:

thanks Ian, short cruises each week, then maybe 2 or 3 x 2 week voyages...  my son has solar panels for us to fit to a boat if it isnt supplied with them, cassette toilet should be fine, fuel = full tank, water = full tank, the marina has a washer & dryer with 4 free tokens a month for each... heating fuel, hoping to get 1 with multi fuel burner... with be mainly timber with some coal....

 

Just be aware that you are not really allowed to use coal, and wood is going thru' some 'issues' at the moment due to the PM2.5 particulates.

(You have probably read about the call for wood burning stoves to be banned ?)

 

I'd suggest you concentrate on using smokeless fuels - "Excel" is a widely used one, but it will of course depend on what is available at the time you need it.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[PD1964]

No one really uses Coal anymore, the stuff that people used to throw on their open fires years ago. Basically every thing that is sold these days is DEFRA approved, any worries have a look on their website for a list of what you can use.

Edited February 28, 2023 by PD1964

[ditchcrawler]

52 minutes ago, mightyslay3r said:

 the remainder of the house sale will be gifted in to my grand childrens saver accounts.. which i am the trustee of... if you get my drift... so we wont have any capital at all so to speak.

Please take advice before doing that.

 

[magnetman]

13 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

No one really uses Coal anymore, the stuff that people used to throw on their open fires years ago. Basically every thing that is sold these days is DEFRA approved, any worries have a look on their website for a list of what you can use.

 

I still burn some Columbian doubles now and again. It is real coal and smells like real coal but less dirty than old house coal.

 

It's all going to be banned end of May  but I'm interested to see if one can still acquire it.

 

Is it going to be like the drug trade I wonder.

10 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Please take advice before doing that.

 

It is called Deprivation of Assets.

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Please take advice before doing that.

 

And from a qualified financial advisor who understands trusts and taxation, not somebody on the Internet... 😉

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

And from a qualified financial advisor who understands trusts and taxation, not somebody on the Internet... 😉

Exactly. It sounds a good idea but I know that elderly going into care have come unstuck trying it.

Its not something I am in favour of as basically you intend to give your family money and expect me to pay for you to live.