CaRT's dismal failure of lock gate replacement

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Quote

 

THE Canal & River Trust is failing to replace anywhere near the number of lock gates it should.

For at least 30 years, and probably longer, CaRT and British Waterways have told the public that lock gates need replacement, on average, every 25 years.

Following a tip-off from within CaRT, Allan Richards has used the Freedom of Information Act to get the actual figures.

Gates and leaves

CaRT does not make it easy for the public to understand how it is performing in its lock gate replacement programme.

It should be simple! CaRT has 3105 lock gates that need to be replaced, on average, every 25 years. To achieve this it needs to replace about 124 gates per year. 

However, instead of saying how many gates it replaces and how that compares to 124, it double counts mitre gates and gives figures in 'lock gate leaves'. This is meaningless to most and only serves to hoodwink the public into believing that CaRT is performing better than it is.

The real figures

Here are the figures provided by CaRT for gates replaced in each of its ten financial years. Remember that the trust needs to replace 124 gates per year ...

2012/13—100
2013/14—75
2014/15—81
2015/16—88
2016/17—97
2017/18—115
2018/19—81
2019/20—81
2020/21—55
2021/22—75
 

CaRT's webpage "Building Lock Gates" reads:

‘An average lock gate lasts for about 25 years. As they come to the end of their working life they will get a visit from our carpenters, who measure it up, ready to be rebuilt back at the workshop. Usually it takes a couple of carpenters two weeks to build a pair of lock gates, but for the biggest gates it can take over a month'.

States it builds 180 a year!

And adds: 'Each year the two workshops normally build 180 lock gates between them, at a cost of over £2 million'.

The truth of the matter is that over the last ten years, the average number of lock gates built is just 85 per year (not 180). This is 39 gates short of the 124 needed....

But don't worry, it gets worse!

This year (2022/23) CaRT intend to replace just 71 gates and certainly not 124.

 

The above is from an narrowboatworld article posted today. I have tried to cut though crap of "lock gate leaves" to simplify the matter. However if anyne wants these figurs please let me know. 

[magpie patrick]

"leaves" is a relevant figure as it removes the confusion over what "gates" means - a wide lock has four leaves, most narrow locks have three, some narrow locks have two. Thus the number of leaves per year will vary on the type of lock where gates have been replaced. They could refer to gates but it's a rather generic term. 

 

A quick sum suggests they are replacing gates at an average of every 36 years. There are a lot of gates on the system with a life expectancy well beyond that, the top gates at Devizes for example should last 120 years - they're steel and have already serves for 33 years, many other steel gates around the system are getting towards their half century and more. Then add in the large locks on the Trent and the Yorkshire waterways where gate life span and replacement is a whole different ball game and it becomes very apparent you can't just apply an "average 25 years" (which it isn't - its "typically 25 years" to the number of locks that CRT have 

 

I do not doubt CRT put a gloss on their performance - but to really understand these figures we need a breakdown of the type of gates replaced and on what locks. "typically 25 years" actually means the shortest realistic life of a wooden gate on a "standard" canal lock  - many last longer and many gates are not wooden. I'd suggest wooden gates last 25-30 years and steel gates - who knows, hardly any have reached the end of their life, but well beyond that. 

[Slim]

In which case why don't they refer to 'lock leaves' throughout. 🤔 

[David Mack]

Narrowboat World doesn't make it easy to understand either. Does the quoted figure of 3105 gates refer to the number of individual gate leaves, or to the number of head/tail gate locations, some of which are pairs of mitre gates and some of which are single gates? And where does the figure of 3105 come from? And does it include gates which are not at locks, such as the flood protection gates at the ends of embankments, some of which are maintained and some not?

Edited January 19, 2023 by David Mack

[Alway Swilby]

Rather than say "Oh, that gate is 25 years old we'd better replace it" perhaps they inspect the gate and then decide whether or not to replace it depending on its condition. It might be good for another 10 years. Seems sensible to me.

[Tacet]

There is likely to be a difference between the life of an average lock gate (CRT) and the average life of a lock gate (NBW).

 

Magpie Patrick gives good reasons why it might be so.

[bizzard]

You can always tell when following  dustman boaters, they leave all the gates open.,

[Athy]

14 minutes ago, bizzard said:

You can always tell when following  dustman boaters, they leave all the gates open.,

....and bins in the middle of the towpath?

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, Alway Swilby said:

Rather than say "Oh, that gate is 25 years old we'd better replace it" perhaps they inspect the gate and then decide whether or not to replace it depending on its condition. It might be good for another 10 years. Seems sensible to me.

There will be several engineer visits and at least two years of planning before a gate is replaced unless an emergency.

[Creaking Gate]

Narrowboat world is like the drunk at the end of the bar.... 

 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, bizzard said:

You can always tell when following  dustman boaters, they leave all the gates open.,

 

 

I was asked recently by a towpath gongoozler why I didn't just open the gates at both ends of the lock and cruise straight through. 

 

Rather taken aback, I pointed out the 8ft difference in levels each side of the lock and explained that the lock was there to keep the levels separate whilst still permitting navigation. They though about it for a moment and the light dawned. They looked very pleased and thanked me profusely for giving them a clear explanation. I got the impression they'd asked other boaters but I was the first to take their question seriously. 

[Allan(nb Albert)]

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

Narrowboat World doesn't make it easy to understand either. Does the quoted figure of 3105 gates refer to the number of individual gate leaves, or to the number of head/tail gate locations, some of which are pairs of mitre gates and some of which are single gates? And where does the figure of 3105 come from? And does it include gates which are not at locks, such as the flood protection gates at the ends of embankments, some of which are maintained and some not?

The figure of 3015 was most provided by CRT in December 2022 whilst confirming the 25 year life expectancy. As the article states, it refers to gates (i.e top or bottom gates).

The  figure for "lock gate leaves" (i.e. counting mitre gates as two and other gates as one leaf) was given at the same time as 5843. 

 

[alan_fincher]

4 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

"leaves" is a relevant figure as it removes the confusion over what "gates" means - a wide lock has four leaves, most narrow locks have three, some narrow locks have two.

 

Pedants alert!

Some wide locks have 6 leaves - Tuel Lane is an example.

What about a broad lock with a guillotine at one end?

Is that 2 leaves, (i.e don't count guillotine), or 3, (count it)?

[Allan(nb Albert)]

2 hours ago, Tacet said:

There is likely to be a difference between the life of an average lock gate (CRT) and the average life of a lock gate (NBW).

 

Magpie Patrick gives good reasons why it might be so.

As the article directly quotes CRT, no difference exists.
 

Quote

 

CaRT's webpage "Building Lock Gates" reads:

‘An average lock gate lasts for about 25 years. As they come to the end of their working life they will get a visit from our carpenters, who measure it up, ready to be rebuilt back at the workshop. Usually it takes a couple of carpenters two weeks to build a pair of lock gates, but for the biggest gates it can take over a month'.

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

I wonder when they will do this one 

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by ditchcrawler

[Tacet]

13 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

As the article directly quotes CRT, no difference exists.

 

The quote from CRT in your first post says:

 

"An average lock gate lasts for about 25 years".   This is (should be) the median whereas in NBW analysis:

 

"It should be simple! CaRT has 3105 lock gates that need to be replaced, on average, every 25 years."  which is (should be) the mean.

 

The figures are unlikely to be identical. 

 

For example, if there were 1000 lock gates - 600 of which were timber with an average life of 25 years and 400 of which were steel/iron with an average life of 75 years.  The life of an average lock gate would be 25 years - as that is the life of the middle-life gate (i.e the 500th or 501st (timber) gate), but the average life of a lock gate would be 45 years [(600x25)+(400x75)]/1000.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Not sure why you feel the need suggest that 40% of CRT's lock gates are not wood. We both know that is not true.

It is very simple maths based on CRT's figures. 3105 lock gates need to be replaced over a 25 year period. The requires, on average, 124 gates to be replaced each year.

Applied to lock gate leaves it is 5843 leaves over a 25 year period. This requires on average, 234 leaves to be replaced each year.

CRT used this method of calculation but in reverse (5843/140=42) in December.

[IanD]

Either way they're not replacing them quickly enough, along with all the other things not being done as required like paddle repairs and replacement... 😞

 

Especially since the system expanded with the restoration of canals like the Rochdale and HNC, CART simply haven't got the funds to maintain the system properly -- they should have more money than BW had in the late 20th century, now in real terms they've got less. There's a huge backlog of maintenance that's built up since then, and this is growing not shrinking -- lock gate replacement is merely one example.

 

Unless CART get more money from somewhere -- boaters, the government, property sales/rental, water extraction, wherever -- this is going to continue, unless expensive to maintain and little-used parts of the system are closed... 😞

 

But every time measures that might help like getting more money out of boaters (who don't really pay that much for what they get) -- you know, the ones who are complaining -- there's a howl of "unfair!" or "can't afford it!" or "it will price people off the canals", even if suggestions like graduated pricing (the rich pay more) are proposed to alleviate this -- just like taxation works. Or should, if the rich didn't avoid paying it... 😞

 

It's rather like the way that the government is running the country, promising tax cuts and improved services -- people want more (NHS, teachers, police, social care...) but don't want to pay for it (higher taxes), so it should come from either somebody else or a magic money tree.

Edited January 19, 2023 by IanD

[magpie patrick]

11 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

Not sure why you feel the need suggest that 40% of CRT's lock gates are not wood. We both know that is not true.
 

Because ot showed the difference between two averages - Tacet was making the same point as me.

 

And whilst more than 60% of gates are wooden I'll lay odds that well over 40% will last more than 25 years, and some of them three to five times that long. 

 

However CRT have phrased it, the minimum life of a gate is 25 years unless inferior wood has been used or someone twonks it with a heavy boat. When approving grant funding I allow a gate life of 30 years for wooden gates. 

 

Just as there is a difference between the life of the average gate and the average life of a gate, there is also a difference between looking at statistics with a critical eye and looking to criticise... 

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Because ot showed the difference between two averages - Tacet was making the same point as me.

 

And whilst more than 60% of gates are wooden I'll lay odds that well over 40% will last more than 25 years, and some of them three to five times that long. 

 

However CRT have phrased it, the minimum life of a gate is 25 years unless inferior wood has been used or someone twonks it with a heavy boat. When approving grant funding I allow a gate life of 30 years for wooden gates. 

 

Just as there is a difference between the life of the average gate and the average life of a gate, there is also a difference between looking at statistics with a critical eye and looking to criticise... 

 

This is like arguing whether the flames are yellow or red when the immediate problem is that your ar*e is on fire... 😉

Edited January 19, 2023 by IanD

[magpie patrick]

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

This is like arguing whether the flames are yellow or red when the immediate problem is that your ar*e is on fire... 😉

How many locks are short of gates at the moment? You know, actually missing one or two? Paddles yes, gates not so much...

 

The millennium canals are actually part of the problem because BW ordered so many gates in a short space of time that inferior wood was used in some instances and had to be replaced after less than 20 years. 

 

One reason Tacet and I are labouring the point is because Alan is a regular CRT moaner and doesn't actually critically assess the figures he presents. The analysis offered is too simplistic and a more detailed one doesn't cast CRT in such a bad light. 

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

How many locks are short of gates at the moment? You know, actually missing one or two? Paddles yes, gates not so much...

 

The millennium canals are actually part of the problem because BW ordered so many gates in a short space of time that inferior wood was used in some instances and had to be replaced after less than 20 years. 

 

One reason Tacet and I are labouring the point is because Alan is a regular CRT moaner and doesn't actually critically assess the figures he presents. The analysis offered is too simplistic and a more detailed one doesn't cast CRT in such a bad light. 

 

The problem isn't missing gates, it's gates which are so old and knack*red that the rotten beams break off or they leak like a sieve with fountains from under/between the gates or within them -- I'm sure you've seen plenty like this recently, I certainly have. I'm equally sure that earlier this century there were a lot fewer quite so decrepit.

 

I'm deliberately not trying to make CART look worse than they are, I'm often one of the people defending them against the "it's all because of blue signs and executive pay" brigade, but the simple fact is they haven't got sufficient funds to properly maintain the UK canal system.

 

Do you agree?

Edited January 19, 2023 by IanD

[magnetman]

21 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

How many locks are short of gates at the moment? You know, actually missing one or two? Paddles yes, gates not so much...

 

The millennium canals are actually part of the problem because BW ordered so many gates in a short space of time that inferior wood was used in some instances and had to be replaced after less than 20 years. 

 

One reason Tacet and I are labouring the point is because Alan is a regular CRT moaner and doesn't actually critically assess the figures he presents. The analysis offered is too simplistic and a more detailed one doesn't cast CRT in such a bad light. 

K&A must be getting interesting now with the old Wijma Ekki timber from Liberian war zones.

 

Was it any good in the end?

[Cheshire cat]

Every time this kind of discussion comes up I wonder about the validity of ongoing restoration schemes. It just seems to be more straws for the camels back.

[IanD]

25 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

Every time this kind of discussion comes up I wonder about the validity of ongoing restoration schemes. It just seems to be more straws for the camels back.

That is a problem which is often ignored by the (well-meaning) restorers -- more canals need more money for upkeep, and there isn't enough now.

 

OTOH I don't think there is anything likely to be restored in the near future with anything remotely close to the maintenance costs of the Rochdale, HNC and K&A -- I remember walking down the Caen Hill locks while they were being restored and thinking "Wow, that's a big job -- wonder how long it'll last?"...

Edited January 19, 2023 by IanD