This is what diesel looks like after a night at -9° C

[Alan de Enfield]

Wax coated filter :

 

 

[Momac]

Assuming the engine is not required to be used and if left alone would that not revert to normal when temperatures warm up a bit.

[MoominPapa]

... and this is what canal water looks like after a night in a lock at -9°C

 

MP.

[Bee]

Often wondered what happens to diesel in really cold weather. Spent a night in some dreary service station some years ago when the diesel froze. And yes, when it warms up it turns back into proper fuel again.

[jonesthenuke]

Road diesel in the winter is supplied to a different spec with a lower waxing point, the trouble is many boaters will still have summer diesel on board, and I wonder if marinas etc get winter grade as their consumption will be lower over the winter.

 

When I was working we took considerable  care to fill all the tanks on site with summer grade diesel and tested all supplies over the winter to ensure it was actually winter grade being delivered.

Edited December 15, 2022 by jonesthenuke
typo

[Tonka]

What happens to Kerosene at a similar temperature. Just wondering because our oil boiler has been going into a lockout state on loads of occasions recently and the oil tank is outside. Overnight temp is -10.8 at the moment. 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Wax coated filter :

 

 

It is a car engine though ain’t it?

 

I don’t think many people should panic that their boat’s filter in an engine bay will go that cold?

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Goliath said:

It is a car engine though ain’t it?

 

Not exactly - its a 3-cylinder Yanmar engine (a model regularly marinised for canal use)

It is in my digger which was parked in our barn.

 

It has not been started for several days so has been getting progressively colder, until today and I find the diesel has waxed.

 

I think it could quite easily happen to a canal boat that is not in regular use. I guess a liveaboard boat would generally be a bit warmer which would 'transmit' to the engine room.

[jonesthenuke]

21 minutes ago, Tonka said:

What happens to Kerosene at a similar temperature. Just wondering because our oil boiler has been going into a lockout state on loads of occasions recently and the oil tank is outside. Overnight temp is -10.8 at the moment. 

I cannot find info on Kerosene some US information seems to suggest plugging starts about -9C It is probably worth asking your supplier as there may be regional variations.

 

This table from Crown oils is if general interest, red diesel that they supply is A2 gas oil or EN590 gas oil, not the summer and winter Cold Filter Plugging Point temperatures. I suspect many boaters will be seeing -4C so summer grade will be a problem

 

Grade	Flashpoint (°C)	Sulphur (ppm)	Winter grade CFPP (°C)	Summer grade CFPP (°C)	Colour	Max. Bio content	Cetane number
A2 Gas Oil	56	10	-12	-4	Cherry red	7%*	45
D Gas Oil	56	1000	-12	-4	Cherry red	7%*	45
C2 Heating Oil	38	1000	NA	NA	Clear	NA	NA
C1 Heating Oil	43	20	NA	NA	Clear	NA	NA
EN 590 Gas Oil	56	10	-12	-4	Cherry red	7%	45
EN 590 Diesel	56	10	-15	-5	Clear	7%	50
EN 14214 Gas Oil	>120	10	-20	NA	Cherry red	100%	51
EN 14214 Diesel	>120	10	-20	NA	Clear	100%	51
EN 15940 Gas Oil	70	5	-15 to -34	-15	Cherry red	100%	70
EN 15940 Diesel	70	5	-15 to -34	15	Clear	100%	70

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by jonesthenuke
typo

[Bob Chamberlain]

Before the days of diesel already having additives we used to put paraffin (kerosene) in the tank with the diesel to stop it 'freezing'.

[Jerra]

I remember back in the 60s seeing truckers lighting fires under fuel tanks to try to get going after a night of hard frost.

[Sea Dog]

I was up in Liverpool in '81 when the Mersey froze over. All the Crosville buses were grounded due to diesel wax. Had to go out and buy a duffel coat!

[Cheshire cat]

The cooking oil in our galley waxes when the boat is unattended in winter. It goes back to normal once the heating is on.

 

If I try to fire up the webasto tomorrow evening and it doesn't want to play I'll know why.

[booke23]

Very interesting @Alan de Enfield, thank you for posting. 

The other day I took my infrared thermometer to the boat out of interest. It had been well below freezing overnight for over a week, -5c overnight and the canal was frozen over. The air temperature was -1c and I measured the temperature of the baseplate and the sides of the swim in the engine bay.....all were around +3c due to the water under the ice being this temperature. In fact everything on or below the level of the Uxter plate was +3. That includes the engine and fuel filter so as long as these items are at or below the level of the Uxter plate, the temperature would have to get quite a bit colder than it's been recently to wax diesel on a boat.

Edited December 15, 2022 by booke23

[peterboat]

4 hours ago, Tonka said:

What happens to Kerosene at a similar temperature. Just wondering because our oil boiler has been going into a lockout state on loads of occasions recently and the oil tank is outside. Overnight temp is -10.8 at the moment. 

Stays liquid that's why I used it in my bubble stove 

[jonathanA]

4 hours ago, Bob Chamberlain said:

Before the days of diesel already having additives we used to put paraffin (kerosene) in the tank with the diesel to stop it 'freezing'.

My recollection was petrol was often added to diesel in the days before winter additives too.  Upto 10% I think.

 

Calor gas has a similar winter and summer version. I've had to pour kettles of hot water on bulk calor tank regulators in the past after a hard frost and a tank full of summer gas

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

Calor gas has a similar winter and summer version.

 

Really? That's interesting. I can't imagine how but I'll ask the trainers next time I do my LPG exams. 

 

 

[jonathanA]

Yes I can't give any technical details on what they do to the gas, but it's definitely something I personally have had to do on more than one occasion until we made sure we ran the tank down towards autumn. Guess it's a problem with the regulator orifices icing up or something?  

[MtB]

1 minute ago, jonathanA said:

Yes I can't give any technical details on what they do to the gas, but it's definitely something I personally have had to do on more than one occasion until we made sure we ran the tank down towards autumn. Guess it's a problem with the regulator orifices icing up or something?  

 

Actually, this is exactly the sort of thing they'll deny happens despite practical experience of real life users! 

[peterboat]

13 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

My recollection was petrol was often added to diesel in the days before winter additives too.  Upto 10% I think.

 

Calor gas has a similar winter and summer version. I've had to pour kettles of hot water on bulk calor tank regulators in the past after a hard frost and a tank full of summer gas

Propane vaporiser at -47c so no issues, however butane vaporises at +4c so that's why we don't uses it on boats

[DandV]

18 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

My recollection was petrol was often added to diesel in the days before winter additives too.  Upto 10% I think.

 

Calor gas has a similar winter and summer version. I've had to pour kettles of hot water on bulk calor tank regulators in the past after a hard frost and a tank full of summer gas

In NZ the propane to butane ratio in LPG was elevated in winter increase the evaporation rate for the gas take off. 

Just vaporizing the liquid drops the temperature, as does reducing gas pressure in the regulator, hence regulator freeze. 

Bulk users often took a liquid take off from the tank, through an electric powered vaporiser , (or the horrid lpg fueled version)

Edited December 15, 2022 by DandV

[jonathanA]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

Propane vaporiser at -47c so no issues, however butane vaporises at +4c so that's why we don't uses it on boats

I don't think the problem was with the propane itself but the hot water was applied to the regulator 

[MtB]

11 minutes ago, DandV said:

In NZ the propane to butane ratio in LPG was elevated in winter increase the evaporation rate for the gas take off. 

Just vaporizing the liquid drops the temperature, as does reducing gas pressure in the regulator, hence regulator freeze. 

Bulk users often took a liquid take off from the tank, through an electric powered vaporiser , (or the horrid lpg fueled version)

 

Here in the UK bulk storage tanks officially are always filled with 100% propane. Maybe in reality it is a mix of propane and butane, with the mix adjusted according to the season. This would explain JA's experience with needing kettles with summer gas in winter.

[Alan de Enfield]

Certainly for Winter camping / hiking it is normal to use a 'Winter mix' of 70/30.

 

Butane is normally the preferred gas as it has more energy by volume that Propane, but 'freezes' at temperatures around 0C. (Boiling point of Butane is -1C)

Adding 30% by volume of Propane keeps much of the benefit of Butane but give a lower usable temperature of around -27C

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

7 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Wax coated filter :

 

 

 

 

There are at least two recent threads on here where newbie boaters' engines are failing to start now the cold weather is on us. I suggested right at the start of one thread waxing is probably the cause but no-one seems to agree. 

 

Huh !