CRT training vlockies today, wrongly

[MtB]

2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

It’s fascinating that this topic causes so much disagreement. There’s not much simpler than going through a lock, and people have been doing it fuss-free for 200+ years, and yet a massive industry of lock passage micro-management seems to have developed in the last 25 years or so.

 

I think it has happened since the invention of vollies, most of whom have never even been on a boat through a lock let alone taken their own boat through. Until then, anyone 'helping' (read getting you through and out of their way faster) was at least a boater with some appreciation of what can go wrong.

 

It can be summed up as "If I sink my boat in a lock, yes it's my problem! But if YOU sink my boat in a lock it is STILL my problem, not yours."

 

So please leave the paddles alone for me to do it my way, not yours.

[Arthur Marshall]

2 hours ago, Paul C said:

 

Leaky front doors?

You try sitting at the bottom of a wide deep lock when someone opens a gate paddle. The water goes about thirty foot with terrific force. I had a deep front deck, below the waterline, and the water smashed the boat's door open.

2 hours ago, frangar said:

The trouble with that is a lot depends on the position of the bollard....depth of lock....and length of boat..for each given lock. Hence why I find it easier with a 50ft deep draughted boat to ride the gates. Having said that if it works for you and your boat then thats fine..But I know may locks where it wouldn't stop me slamming the gates or would cause other issues.

Your boat is ten foot longer than mine, which would certainly make a difference. 

This, of course, is why there's no "one size fits all" way of doing things, and only the boat owner knows the best way for themselves, and why anyone offering help should do it the boat owners way and according to their instructions.

[ditchcrawler]

36 minutes ago, Goliath said:

Oh, and wind the paddles down after you’ve opened the gate or when shutting it again but not when the boats waiting to come out 

 

 

That use to happen at Napton top lock and by the time they had reached the beam the lock had leaked and you couldn't open the top gate

[alias]

13 hours ago, Paul C said:

When you drive into a lock, you kinda need the gate open. Then once you're in it, you need it closed. Broad locks and the "single gate open for a narrowboat" debate aside, there's nothing much complicated about that, and nothing much to go wrong.

 

 

I used to think that, until I saw an over enthusiastic youth rush up to the bottom gates at Calcutt bottom lock and start to open a paddle as the front of my boat was just passing through the open top gates... 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

8 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

That use to happen at Napton top lock and by the time they had reached the beam the lock had leaked and you couldn't open the top gate

Perhaps everyone needs to do the BCN challenge and learn how to get a shift on?

 

This is all tongue in cheek by the way. 
I am a patient person..

 

to a point 

[David Schweizer]

2 hours ago, Paul C said:

 

Its blindingly obvious that this forum is a vacuous soap box for a minority of bored boaters and non-boaters who metaphorically 'like the sound of their own voice' (myself included). It has absolutely no relevance to actual boating which occurs on the canal network. So, yes I am aware how pompous and patronizing today's posts have been, but as explained I am bored and playing devil's advocate with some of the half-baked drivel which is posted by others here.

 

Thanks for the reminder though, normal service will be resumed shortly.

 

Your response is suitably vague enough to avoid confirming, or otherwise, whether I fall into your catagory of uttering " half-baked drivel", Nevertheless. I would be interested to learn whether you do, or ever have, owned a boat, and if so, how much actual boating experience you have. Some of those you have been taking issue with in this discussion have substantial experience of boating, gained over very many years, and they are not talking "round objects"

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

 

We do this sometimes, still don't fully understand, its just some locks when we have gone down and we just can't get out, even been shouted at a couple of times. I think its because we are so big, its just really hard to start the water flowing round the boat.   and then that time at Star lock, we were in there for ages, a waiting hire boater went crazy and said we were deliberately making him wait. I said we were sat on the bottom. I opened a top paddle to flush us out and the hire boater almost died of rage insisting the top paddles must never be opened with the bottom gates open,  "Ive been hiring for ten years and never seen anything so stupid before" 😀

Marston Doles top does that , then suddenly the boat rises 4" and off you go

 

 

This bit was a separate posting.

I do wonder if it was a proper training session for a volockie it they were on a work boat clearing vegetation

Edited July 23, 2022 by ditchcrawler

[Tacet]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

I think it has happened since the invention of vollies, most of whom have never even been on a boat through a lock let alone taken their own boat through. Until then, anyone 'helping' (read getting you through and out of their way faster) was at least a boater with some appreciation of what can go wrong.

 

It can be summed up as "If I sink my boat in a lock, yes it's my problem! But if YOU sink my boat in a lock it is STILL my problem, not yours."

 

So please leave the paddles alone for me to do it my way, not yours.

If there is another boat waiting, I feel there is some expectation that you don't keep it waiting unreasonably.  Elsewhere, you have said you don't keep to Canal Plan standard timings whereas others can consistently make progress in shorter times.  It might be the speed travelled in the pounds, but with a single crew it is more likely that you can't clear the locks as expeditiously as the mob-handed (unless you are a no-reason ditherer).   So if someone waiting to use the lock is safely reducing the time you are taking, that is understandable even when it deprives you of the fun of drawing a paddle.  

 

Wardle Lock on the Middlewich branch  on a busy Saturday is illuminating.  Despite a couple of hours queue for all, the boat next-ahead of me must have taken at least ten minutes to enter the lock once it was vacated.  No doubt he was boating in his preferred style.

[LadyG]

I can't believe all this activity:  up here, in t'North I usually see three boats in one day, though I'm not near a hire boat centre at the moment, and I don't think they really bother about locks per hour, the canal is rather foreshortened and prone to unplanned stoppages, so the won't be in training for next year's BCN challenge!

[ditchcrawler]

What bothers me is approaching an empty narrow lock and see someone on each top paddle with the windless on, I know they will wiz them up before the bottom gate touches the frame and I am still 10 feet away from the top gate/cill.

[Captain Pegg]

5 hours ago, Paul C said:

 

True, by letting MtB or any other boater relegate the volockie to gongoozler status, he (probably) could have got through the lock eventually.

 

The original point remains....that once the boat is in the lock and the gates are shut, the next step in lock operation is the opening of the paddles to alter the water level as appropriate. If he wants to do something the volockie is not expecting - like positioning in a specific way, getting off the boat, or attaching a rope/line to something, he'd better either 1) make that crystal clear or 2) do it before the gate is shut..........because some volockies and many 'helpers' don't wait, or don't feel the need to check with the boater of the boat in the lock. Its simply laying the facts out. Think of it as the locking equivalent of defensive driving.

 

The volockie is there for a reason. Sometimes that reason is so they can 'play' with the canal system, in much the same way MtB wants to.

 

 

 

So they DON'T leak but the water still gets through? 

You are simply wrong in your view of how other people work locks. If I am descending a lock single handed I will step off as soon as the counter clears the balance beam and close the gate while the boat decelerates on it’s way toward the bottom gate.

 
The next step in the process is not to open a bottom paddle; it is to take the centre line and take a suitable number of turns around a bollard. The reason for needing to do this is that if your boat is shorter than the distance between the lock ladder and one of the gates you won’t necessarily be able to get back on board. In any case when not on board it’s simply expedient - and arguably safety critical - to have the boat on a line.

 

You are the one who fails to demonstrate experience in your posts; if only for no other reason than you chose not to. Which is why you are verging on trolling.

 

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Captain Pegg

[gatekrash]

1 hour ago, Goliath said:

Perhaps everyone needs to do the BCN challenge and learn how to get a shift on

That's definitely in the plan for next year for us 😁

 

10 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

You are simply wrong in your view of how other people work locks. If I am descending a lock single handed I will step off as soon as the counter clears the balance beam and close the gate while the boat decelerates on it's way towards the bottom gate.

 

The next step in the process is not to open a bottom paddle; it is to take the centre line and take a suitable number of turns around a bollard. The reason for needing to do this is that if your boat is shorter than the distance between the lock ladder and one of the gates you won’t necessarily be able to get back on board. In any case when not on board it’s simply expedient - and arguably safety critical - to have the boat on a line

 

 

This is exactly our process 2 handed (usually because 1 of is is of setting ahead so the other is working the boat through the lock). We' up and down through Hanbury pretty much every time we're out, and the ladders are positioned so that you can't get back on a 50 footer if it's sat back in the lock when you're going down, so you need a line in a bollard so you can line the boat up with the ladder, else you can't get back on (don't ask me how I know that one 😔)

[Captain Pegg]

6 minutes ago, gatekrash said:

That's definitely in the plan for next year for us 😁

 

This is exactly our process 2 handed (usually because 1 of is is of setting ahead so the other is working the boat through the lock). We' up and down through Hanbury pretty much every time we're out, and the ladders are positioned so that you can't get back on a 50 footer if it's sat back in the lock when you're going down, so you need a line in a bollard so you can line the boat up with the ladder, else you can't get back on (don't ask me how I know that one 😔)

I will do similar if I have a fully able and competent crewmate. Often though I boat with a steerer only crewmate (a young or old member of the family).

 

Hanbury is one place I am glad to see volockies. The side ponds and the sheer depth of the locks makes them difficult to single hand.

 

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Captain Pegg

[Iain_S]

45 minutes ago, Tacet said:

(snip)

Wardle Lock on the Middlewich branch  on a busy Saturday is illuminating.  Despite a couple of hours queue for all, the boat next-ahead of me must have taken at least ten minutes to enter the lock once it was vacated.  No doubt he was boating in his preferred style.

The most annoying one like that we had was on the T&M, locking down to Fradley. Woodend Lock was fairly busy, with two or three boats waiting in each direction. Not much of a queue at Shadehouse, but about a dozen boats waiting to descend Middle Lock. The reason soon became apparent : boats ascending were waiting at the Swan until the descending boat had passed them, with both boats on tickover past the moored boats between the Swan and Middle Lock. Despite a lot of waving, the crowd at the lock were unable to convince any of the ascending boats that there was room for them to pass below the lock. 

After about an hour, and much timing of lock operation, we turned the lock as soon as a descending boat had left, let another boat down, and had the lock ready for the arrival of the somewhat disgruntled ascending boater who'd had "the lock turned in his face" 

[Captain Pegg]

2 hours ago, Goliath said:

Perhaps everyone needs to do the BCN challenge and learn how to get a shift on?

 
Tufty the BCN Challenge winning Squirrel says:

 

”Always take a moment to make sure everything is ready before winding a paddle, don’t JFDI”.

 

[Tacet]

11 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

You are simply wrong in your view of how other people work locks. If I am descending a lock single handed I will step off as soon as the counter clears the balance beam and close the gate while the boat decelerates on it’s way toward the bottom gate.

 

It's quicker if you step off just before the counter reaches the gate........

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

1 hour ago, Tacet said:

It's quicker if you step off just before the counter reaches the gate........

then while waiting to close the gate as the boat passes, you can be closing ground paddle and gate paddle (if there is one).

 

[cuthound]

19 hours ago, howardang said:

Surely Lady G was saying that he/she needed assistance, not instructions.

 

Howard 

 

Well he would certainly need assistance removing the windlass if he had upset @frangar

Edited July 24, 2022 by cuthound
To remove a duplicate post.

[cuthound]

16 hours ago, dmr said:

 

We do this sometimes, still don't fully understand, its just some locks when we have gone down and we just can't get out, even been shouted at a couple of times. I think its because we are so big, its just really hard to start the water flowing round the boat.   and then that time at Star lock, we were in there for ages, a waiting hire boater went crazy and said we were deliberately making him wait. I said we were sat on the bottom. I opened a top paddle to flush us out and the hire boater almost died of rage insisting the top paddles must never be opened with the bottom gates open,  "Ive been hiring for ten years and never seen anything so stupid before" 😀

 

I had something similar at Glascote top lock last year.

 

Boat in the lock but couldn't get the top gate open because the lock wouldn't make a level. They had been in the lock for about 20 minutes so I ambled up to see if I could help. Both bottom paddles appeared to be down, so I surmised something must be stuck under one. 

 

I opened the paddle a bit and the boater went mad at me. "I've been boating for 10 years, don't you know you should never have too and bottom paddles open at the same time".

 

Opening the bottom paddle a bit flushed whatever was under it out, and when I closed it again the lock quickly filled.

 

I said "I've been boating for about 50 years and if you don't know that in certain circumstances you do need to open both sets of paddles, then you still have a lot to learn".

 

Ignorant sod didn't even apologise. ☹️

[cuthound]

16 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

You try sitting at the bottom of a wide deep lock when someone opens a gate paddle. The water goes about thirty foot with terrific force. I had a deep front deck, below the waterline, and the water smashed the boat's door open.

Your boat is ten foot longer than mine, which would certainly make a difference. 

This, of course, is why there's no "one size fits all" way of doing things, and only the boat owner knows the best way for themselves, and why anyone offering help should do it the boat owners way and according to their instructions.

 

Many people on the canals today don't realise that many (most?)  locks had unshuttered gate paddles until the late 80's/early 90's.

[Cheese]

These novices seem to manage satisfactorily: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/commonwealth-games/62209370  😀

[Mike Todd]

15 hours ago, Tacet said:

If there is another boat waiting, I feel there is some expectation that you don't keep it waiting unreasonably.  Elsewhere, you have said you don't keep to Canal Plan standard timings whereas others can consistently make progress in shorter times.  It might be the speed travelled in the pounds, but with a single crew it is more likely that you can't clear the locks as expeditiously as the mob-handed (unless you are a no-reason ditherer).   So if someone waiting to use the lock is safely reducing the time you are taking, that is understandable even when it deprives you of the fun of drawing a paddle.  

 

Wardle Lock on the Middlewich branch  on a busy Saturday is illuminating.  Despite a couple of hours queue for all, the boat next-ahead of me must have taken at least ten minutes to enter the lock once it was vacated.  No doubt he was boating in his preferred style.

I think that there must be a scientific formula for the optimum number of crew when working locks. Up to a certain point, more means greater efficiency but beyond that it generally seems to me that they get in each other's way or distract in conversation. 

 

Generally, I find that that number is three although I know that some record breaking runs through long flights, eg Hatton, Wolverhampton, use more but they are carefully marshalled,  each with a specific role.

 

Normally it is just the two of us, no longer quite as agile as we once were, but rarely do we find a following boat catching us in a flight.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

12 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I think that there must be a scientific formula for the optimum number of crew when working locks. Up to a certain point, more means greater efficiency but beyond that it generally seems to me that they get in each other's way or distract in conversation. 

 

Generally, I find that that number is three although I know that some record breaking runs through long flights, eg Hatton, Wolverhampton, use more but they are carefully marshalled,  each with a specific role.

 

Normally it is just the two of us, no longer quite as agile as we once were, but rarely do we find a following boat catching us in a flight.

I think 3 too. 
3 and a bicycle. 
Single locks anyway. 
 

Possibly 4 or 5 for wider locks 🤷‍♀️,

[Captain Pegg]

4 hours ago, Tacet said:

It's quicker if you step off just before the counter reaches the gate........

Marginally quicker, marginally less safe.
 

Sometimes I’ll get off on the offside in the jaws if the paddle needs lowering and then step back via the counter but I’m happy being at the helm until the back end passes the gate. Maybe because that is what works for me and my boat which being 35’ still has further to go than most at that point so is probably travelling faster.

 

The quickest single operation for each element doesn’t make for the quickest overall operation of the lock if it can’t be repeatedly executed without the something undue happening.

 

@Bargebuilder said yesterday that it’s possible to take a single boat through a broad lock more quickly without using a line. I’ve learnt to do this on the GU Birmingham line locks but only by learning how to manipulate the paddles so they can be used to control the boat (and gates). What it requires is only using the near side paddle when ascending and opening it in three stages. It’s most definitely not the quickest method of filling the chamber but it is the quickest method of safely ascending the lock singly with a small boat.

[MtB]

9 minutes ago, Goliath said:

I think 3 too. 
3 and a bicycle. 
Single locks anyway.

 

 

Was gonna post earlier that I tend to find following boats rarely catch me in (narrow) flights no matter how many crew they have, but thought it must be my imagination. Then your post reminded me I use my bike to dash up and down setting locks and closing gates. It lives on the tug deck!