CRT training vlockies today, wrongly

[Rob-M]

40 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

 

Working pairs sometimes used to wait below locks in forward gear with the bows nestled against the gates, especially if there was a fierce flow of water from the paddles. But if there were boats preparing to leave the lock they always reversed out of the way in good time. The last time I saw it happen was when David Blagrove was bringing a loaded pair up the Braunston flight

I do that when towing the butty, leaving the butty against the gate but if a boat comes through the lock the butty gets pulled out the way. 

[haggis]

At single locks if there is no one coming down and I have to turn the lock, Iain sits with the bows against the bottom gates. I don't open a paddle till the boat is in position and it just sits there. This allows Iain to walk along the gunwales and come up to do a paddle if they are stiff. 

 

 

[nicknorman]

6 hours ago, frangar said:

If you or your OH pulled a paddle without acknowledgement from myself or anyone I had crewing for me you would quickly find yourself at best yelled at and at worst wearing your windlass in an unfortunate place....you might be fine with a lock being worked like that...I am not and I wouldn't impose how I worked a lock on anyone else....we all have our own methods when its our "crew" and our boat but to impose those on other boaters is the height of ignorance.

 

I may not agree with how you work a lock or you with me but "my boat my rules" is a mantra to work by.....yes some people faff about and its annoying but such is life....boat a bit longer into the day and you will often pass them tied up for lunch or dinner and they are then behind you.

Oh yes don’t worry, I fully appreciate that whilst we just get on with it, there are loads of boaters who are incompetent and nervous and need a fully blood-signed contract before contemplating opening a paddle, even though because they have been boating for a few years they like to consider themselves experts. It goes with the general dumbing down of the waterways and the boaters thereon. Even though 55 years ago when I started boating people just got on with it, now a lot of people are very precious so we have had to adapt. I was talking about what we do, not what we would do to other precious, nervous and incompetent people.

[frangar]

14 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Oh yes don’t worry, I fully appreciate that whilst we just get on with it, there are loads of boaters who are incompetent and nervous and need a fully blood-signed contract before contemplating opening a paddle, even though because they have been boating for a few years they like to consider themselves experts. It goes with the general dumbing down of the waterways and the boaters thereon. Even though 55 years ago when I started boating people just got on with it, now a lot of people are very precious so we have had to adapt. I was talking about what we do, not what we would do to other precious, nervous and incompetent people.

Seems theres some that are arrogant (expletive) as well which you fit into nicely....as has been shown when our paths crossed....although of course you had your nose so far in the air you dont acknowledge anyone.....Perhaps if you charged about less and took time to boat properly you may have a better life experience.

Edited July 23, 2022 by frangar
typo

[Arthur Marshall]

4 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Oh yes don’t worry, I fully appreciate that whilst we just get on with it, there are loads of boaters who are incompetent and nervous and need a fully blood-signed contract before contemplating opening a paddle, even though because they have been boating for a few years they like to consider themselves experts. It goes with the general dumbing down of the waterways and the boaters thereon. Even though 55 years ago when I started boating people just got on with it, now a lot of people are very precious so we have had to adapt. I was talking about what we do, not what we would do to other precious, nervous and incompetent people.

The trouble is, of course, that those of us on the  boat at the bottom of a lock have no clue as to whether you, the helpful person at the top, know what you're doing (and the characteristics of the lock) or whether you're just another dumb incompetent. So winding up a paddle without the ok from the person in charge of the boat is simply another example of incompetent boating. Smashing someone else's boat against a lock gate is not the act of an expert, however they may regard themselves. It doesn't make the person at the bottom precious, nervous or incompetent. Well, nervous maybe, and justifiably so of the pompous, opinionated and sadly misguided egotist at the top!

[Paul C]

4 minutes ago, frangar said:

Perhaps if you charged about less and took time to boat properly you may have a better life experience.

 

Sounds like you are imposing your style of boating onto others. Not good karma.

[frangar]

Just now, Paul C said:

 

Sounds like you are imposing your style of boating onto others. Not good karma.

Just like you want to do you mean?

[Athy]

6 hours ago, frangar said:

If you or your OH pulled a paddle without acknowledgement from myself or anyone I had crewing for me you would quickly find yourself at best yelled at and at worst wearing your windlass in an unfortunate place. 

I am not sure that yelling or rectal windlass insertion would be at all appropriate ways of treating people whose motive was just to be helpful.

[howardang]

8 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

Methinks you need to make your mind up.

 

It was only last week you were complaining that as a single hander you need help 😕

Surely Lady G was saying that he/she needed assistance, not instructions.

 

Howard 

[frangar]

Just now, Athy said:

I am not sure that yelling or rectal windlass insertion would be at all appropriate ways of treating people whose motive was just to be helpful.

Far from helpful to be slammed into a gate....better to yell and prevent damage to my boat....If people take offence then so be it....Im not wanting to be their best friend.

[Paul C]

1 minute ago, frangar said:

Just like you want to do you mean?

 

I think you need to go back and read the thread properly. My original point, was that as an experienced boater, you should 1) know that once your boat is in a lock and the gates are closed, the next step in the operation is to open the relevant paddles, 2) be aware that some volockies might just open the paddles.

[Athy]

Just now, frangar said:

Far from helpful to be slammed into a gate....better to yell and prevent damage to my boat....If people take offence then so be it....Im not wanting to be their best friend.

But do you want them all to become your enemies?

[frangar]

Just now, Athy said:

But do you want them all to become your enemies?

Not bothered in the slightest...thats their decision....would you rather be sweeping up broken crockery or worse for fear you might have offended someone by pointing out their error?

3 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

I think you need to go back and read the thread properly. My original point, was that as an experienced boater, you should 1) know that once your boat is in a lock and the gates are closed, the next step in the operation is to open the relevant paddles, 2) be aware that some volockies might just open the paddles.

Yet you said you would shut the gate and the boater in the lock best be ready to have the paddles raised.....surely thats enforcing your "style" of boating onto them?....

I guess you are being a twattish troll and just looking for a fight....

[Mike Todd]

3 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

You did it very nicely, and I didn't tie the boat up either!

I've been boating, mostly on my own, for thirty years and I know how I feel safe doing it, and how quickly I can go. In a flight of close locks I'm going to be slower than some boats with crews, but hardly any of those send someone ahead anyway, so most go slower than me as they seem to take an age to untie, move and reload their crew, even in short pounds. And the other thing I've noticed is that when I started this lark, most boaters were older than me, and now I'm 70 odd and they still are. That doesn't speed them up, either - we break easier at this age and tend to be a bit more careful.

Riding the gate is fine for those who feel comfortable doing it, and I can see the advantages, but it's not for me.

All the vlockies I've met this trip have asked if I want help and have asked for a signal before winding anything, and watched the lock throughout. There's bound to be a few officious knowalls here and there, but they seem a lot better than they were.

That's a horrible corner, though. He probably went too wide and couldn't get back to the bollards. This week there was a boat tied up outside the dry dock, which made it even worse.

Really not a bad way to do things - coming round that corner is really hard and the boat has a tendency to go where it wants, not where I want it to. Getting to the lock landing is pretty difficult! At least in that position it is likely to be more stable having come to rest and then backed off enough to let the boat out. 

[nicknorman]

23 minutes ago, frangar said:

Seems theres some that are arrogant (expletive) as well which you fit into nicely....as has been shown when our paths crossed....although of course you had your nose so far in the air you dont acknowledge anyone.....Perhaps if you charged about less and took time to boat properly you may have a better life experience.

The trouble is that not everyone one is like you. I know, it is annoying! The counter to your need for a signed contract and 30 minute briefing before opening a paddle, are the plenty of boaters who sit at the helm waiting for you to open the paddle, whilst you are waiting for the thumbs up that is never going to come. They don’t even look up. When you eventually decide just to open the paddle anyway, you can see them thinking “why are they pissing about and not getting on with it.”. One cannot win, with each side thinking their’s is the only sensible way and everyone else is an idiot.

[Cheese]

25 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

The trouble is, of course, that those of us on the  boat at the bottom of a lock have no clue as to whether you, the helpful person at the top, know what you're doing (and the characteristics of the lock) or whether you're just another dumb incompetent. So winding up a paddle without the ok from the person in charge of the boat is simply another example of incompetent boating. ...

Agreed. But one positive about regular volockies (as opposed to helpful passers by) is that they usually work the same lock or flight repeatedly, and so do know the characteristics of the lock. They should also get used to how different length boats behave in that lock.

 

So provided they acknowledge the helm, and follow instructions, i am happy to take their advice.

[frangar]

4 minutes ago, Cheese said:

Agreed. But one positive about regular volockies (as opposed to helpful passers by) is that they usually work the same lock or flight repeatedly, and so do know the characteristics of the lock. They should also get used to how different length boats behave in that lock.

 

So provided they acknowledge the helm, and follow instructions, i am happy to take their advice.

You would like to hope so but many of them have never actually steered a boat through "their" lock so do in fact remain blissfully unaware of the fluid dynamics of the lock....let alone how each boat reacts in said lock....its not just length but the underwater profile such as differing swims or draft that affect how the boat behaves.

[haggis]

I think there are at least two scenarios here.  When a couple boat together they get to know  what their partner is going to do at a lock and they know when to whack up the paddles and when to pause after a few inches to let the boat settle.

if the person on the boat and the person on the paddle are strangers one has no idea what the other is going to do and a degree of caution is called for. If I am on the paddle for anyone other than Iain I will not start winding till the skipper indicates that it is OK , however long that may take.. I find that a high percentage of skippers indicate almost right away and if there is a delay when they are obviously not sorting out the boat, I say to them when the boat comes up that I always look for a signal. They quickly learn that an OK signal is a good idea and there is no hanging about which Nick seems to object to.   Waiting for a signal also gives the skipper the opportunity to indicate a half paddle first then a pause o whack them right up. 

Edited July 23, 2022 by haggis

[Stroudwater1]

6 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I never, ever, leave the boat in gear on the front gate going up. Plenty of sunk boats refloated by RCR to make my argument. I've always regarded it as stupid, and still do. I can see the point in a seventy footer, but anything else is just daft (EtA no offence to MtB above - it's just my opinion).

Any fool who decides to help me up or down without checking with me how I want the lock managed is going to get yelled at, probably with some obscenities. A 40 foot boat in any lock is going to get thrown about by the various surges, and I know how it behaves and what to do about it.

And yes, I singlehand faster than most crewed boats, and the few that are obviously quicker I let through. But I can't believe how slowly most crews do locks.

out of interest Arthur how do you manage your boat going up the Cheshire locks?
 

The pull to the top gate  is ferocious and like MtB I wasn’t able to reverse with enough speed to prevent crashing into the top gate. I tried centreline reversing. Most locks I don’t like doing what MtB does especially as he is off the boat so can’t reverse but could see no way to avoid a bash. Similar on the right Hillmorton middle going up it always seems to drag rapidly forward 

[nicknorman]

It’s fascinating that this topic causes so much disagreement. There’s not much simpler than going through a lock, and people have been doing it fuss-free for 200+ years, and yet a massive industry of lock passage micro-management seems to have developed in the last 25 years or so.

[Athy]

50 minutes ago, frangar said:

Not bothered in the slightest...thats their decision....would you rather be sweeping up broken crockery or worse

A hypothetical question to which there are at least two answers:

1) No, of course not.

2) No, but in about 25 years of boating we have been helped through locks by hundreds of people (and have helped hundreds of others through) and I can't recall a single incident in which crockery was broken.

[haggis]

2 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

It’s fascinating that this topic causes so much disagreement. There’s not much simpler than going through a lock, and people have been doing it fuss-free for 200+ years, and yet a massive industry of lock passage micro-management seems to have developed in the last 25 years or so.

While I agree that going through locks is fairly simple, they are the places on the cut where most accidents and fatalities occur and I don't think taking a second or two to work a lock how a skipper wants can be called micro management. I think of it as consideration for others 🙂 . I think that the percentage of "new" boaters has gone up a lot in the last 20 years or so and you are therefore more likely to encounter inexperienced boaters . We all started somewhere 🙂 

[frangar]

5 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

It’s fascinating that this topic causes so much disagreement. There’s not much simpler than going through a lock, and people have been doing it fuss-free for 200+ years, and yet a massive industry of lock passage micro-management seems to have developed in the last 25 years or so.

When boat crews knew what they were doing and all boats be that single boat in a narrowlock or a pair in a broad lock fully filled a lock then in way it was easier....as well as no open front decks to flood...hence deckboards and cloths...the boat couldn't move much and there was less chance of sinking....now with well decks....no deckboards...no cloths...and shorter boats there is more chance for things to go wrong...not to mention those who think they have a god given right to pull paddles and dictate to others what should be done...I could mention that they also seem to own a certain type of boat......

[Captain Pegg]

11 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

It’s fascinating that this topic causes so much disagreement. There’s not much simpler than going through a lock, and people have been doing it fuss-free for 200+ years, and yet a massive industry of lock passage micro-management seems to have developed in the last 25 years or so.

Possibly because working boaters left each other’s locks well alone.

[Paul C]

1 hour ago, frangar said:

Yet you said you would shut the gate and the boater in the lock best be ready to have the paddles raised.....surely thats enforcing your "style" of boating onto them?....

I guess you are being a twattish troll and just looking for a fight....

 

Please can you use the quote function to remind me where I said that.