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CRT training vlockies today, wrongly


LadyG

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We have had a similar experience. We were on the Shroppie last year and CRT were assessing a volockie who had finished his training. after a few minutes I had to explain to the assessor that I would not be taking any instructions from the volockie regarding the passage of out boat through the lock.

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11 minutes ago, jonesthenuke said:

We have had a similar experience. We were on the Shroppie last year and CRT were assessing a volockie who had finished his training. after a few minutes I had to explain to the assessor that I would not be taking any instructions from the volockie regarding the passage of out boat through the lock.

Quite right, I kept my powder dry as it would have annoyed the "trainer" and confused the trainee.

There seemed to be a lot of volunteers on the workboat. I can only identify the experienced ones by the fact their lifejacket is a dirty red, and they are more likely to talk to me.

Newbies will have bright red lifejackets, and litter pickers most likely, brand new polo shirts.

Edited by LadyG
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I'm going to be the devil's advocate here, excuse me....

 

When you drive into a lock, you kinda need the gate open. Then once you're in it, you need it closed. Broad locks and the "single gate open for a narrowboat" debate aside, there's nothing much complicated about that, and nothing much to go wrong.

 

Once you're in a lock.....the paddles need opening. As a boater, you should be aware that, at some point in the next 5 minutes, the paddles ARE going to be opened. So......GET YOUR BOAT AND YOURSELF READY FOR THAT!!!!! I don't know what some boaters are doing when there is a huge delay between gates closing and paddles open. Its a waste of time. JFDI, etc.....

 

My pet peeve is when I'm driving the boat, its driven into the lock (sometimes I'm not even on it, if I've nipped off to close the offside paddle going down) and it goes to the front then..............nothing. Or another 'helpful' boater is doing it 1 click at a time, or waiting for intimate eye contact or a secret squirrel signal. JFDI..........please.....

 

And if you're singlehanding and going up in the lock........and you want to get off once in the lock......just tell them before "I'm going to be getting off the boat, not staying on it" and get off it quick so the boat behind isn't inconvenienced (any further).....and maybe if its going to take 10 minutes to hobble along the roof or inch your way up a ladder, you'd be better taking their offer of just staying on the boat?

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30 minutes ago, Paul C said:

I'm going to be the devil's advocate here, excuse me....

 

When you drive into a lock, you kinda need the gate open. Then once you're in it, you need it closed. Broad locks and the "single gate open for a narrowboat" debate aside, there's nothing much complicated about that, and nothing much to go wrong.

 

Once you're in a lock.....the paddles need opening. As a boater, you should be aware that, at some point in the next 5 minutes, the paddles ARE going to be opened. So......GET YOUR BOAT AND YOURSELF READY FOR THAT!!!!! I don't know what some boaters are doing when there is a huge delay between gates closing and paddles open. Its a waste of time. JFDI, etc.....

 

My pet peeve is when I'm driving the boat, its driven into the lock (sometimes I'm not even on it, if I've nipped off to close the offside paddle going down) and it goes to the front then..............nothing. Or another 'helpful' boater is doing it 1 click at a time, or waiting for intimate eye contact or a secret squirrel signal. JFDI..........please.....

 

And if you're singlehanding and going up in the lock........and you want to get off once in the lock......just tell them before "I'm going to be getting off the boat, not staying on it" and get off it quick so the boat behind isn't inconvenienced (any further).....and maybe if its going to take 10 minutes to hobble along the roof or inch your way up a ladder, you'd be better taking their offer of just staying on the boat?

I'd heaps rather have a cautious approach from someone helping me through a lock. If not I'd prefer to do the lock solo.

 

Take the case of ascending a deep lock as a single hander. I don't want to have the front fender resting on the gate as it may get snagged, so I hold the boat some way back.

 

If a "helper" winds the paddle up all the way, in certain locks the boat tends to surge toward the front, even with solid reverse revs. I indicate that I'd like half paddle to begin with, and most comply. This required eye contact and the lock helper to be facing you.

 

I can think of little worse than being in a lock with the volly lockies facing away from the steerer in the manner @LadyG describes. Becoming stuck on the gate or lock sides with front or rear fenders, rudder or even side fenders requires constant observation and immediate action from the paddle operator.

 

Maybe your boat is short and spherical so is unlikely to suffer hanging or cilling.

Edited by Puffling
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No worries, I completely respect your viewpoint, its just that I don't agree with it. But I don't want to tell others how to boat, unless it directly affects me badly. If you happen to be locking directly in front of me, I'll help you through to speed things up, whacking paddles open before the gates are fully closed while looking away, etc (joking).

 

 

9 minutes ago, Puffling said:

 

 

I'd heaps rather have a cautious approach from someone helping me through a lock. If not I'd prefer to do the lock solo.

 

Take the case of ascending a deep lock as a single hander. I don't want to have the front fender resting on the gate as it may get snagged, so I hold the boat some way back.

 

I'd be interested to know how the front fender could get snagged - there is nothing to snag it? And in any case, its chains should have a weak link to guard the boat's continued floaty-ness, should it be horrendously snagged on some object I'm unaware of.

 

9 minutes ago, Puffling said:

 

If a "helper" winds the paddle up all the way, in certain locks the boat tends to surge toward the front, even with solid reverse revs.

 

That's why I'll be at the front with the boat in forwards gear, as a general rule. If the gates are particularly leaky and the front is getting absolutely soaked, I might go back a little then do the baby-steps approach to filling it.....but only exceptionally....

 

9 minutes ago, Puffling said:

 

 

I indicate that I'd like half paddle to begin with, and most comply. This required eye contact and the lock helper to be facing you.

 

I can think of little worse than being in a lock with the volly lockies facing away from the steerer in the manner @LadyG describes. Becoming stuck on the gate or lock sides with front or rear fenders, rudder or even side fenders requires constant observation and immediate action from the paddle operator.

 

Maybe your boat is short and spherical so is unlikely to suffer hanging or cilling.

 

Its unlikely to be hanged or cilled because I keep an eye on it and check its free floating at all times, if its not I can stand on the horn to get someone's attention. And its "short" in the sense that its shorter than ~72feet or however long the average lock is, so no chance of being cilled (because I'm at the front).

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6 hours ago, LadyG said:

Just sent a message to CRT today, also putting it on here as I suspect they get feedback on here.

Under NO circumstances should an operator stand with their back to the lock and wind down the paddle.

Under no circumstances should the operator not communicate with the boater before operating the lock.

The boater is in charge of the operation NOT some guy who has decided to volunteer, however well meaning, they should be trained to understand this from day 1 lock 1.

I'm not sure, but  I would think that only CRT paid employees with some basic training experience should be training these vlockies in order to makes sure they all get the same training.

 

Methinks you need to make your mind up.

 

It was only last week you were complaining that as a single hander you need help 😕

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1 hour ago, Paul C said:

I'm going to be the devil's advocate here, excuse me....

 

When you drive into a lock, you kinda need the gate open. Then once you're in it, you need it closed. Broad locks and the "single gate open for a narrowboat" debate aside, there's nothing much complicated about that, and nothing much to go wrong.

 

Once you're in a lock.....the paddles need opening. As a boater, you should be aware that, at some point in the next 5 minutes, the paddles ARE going to be opened. So......GET YOUR BOAT AND YOURSELF READY FOR THAT!!!!! I don't know what some boaters are doing when there is a huge delay between gates closing and paddles open. Its a waste of time. JFDI, etc.....

 

My pet peeve is when I'm driving the boat, its driven into the lock (sometimes I'm not even on it, if I've nipped off to close the offside paddle going down) and it goes to the front then..............nothing. Or another 'helpful' boater is doing it 1 click at a time, or waiting for intimate eye contact or a secret squirrel signal. JFDI..........please.....

 

And if you're singlehanding and going up in the lock........and you want to get off once in the lock......just tell them before "I'm going to be getting off the boat, not staying on it" and get off it quick so the boat behind isn't inconvenienced (any further).....and maybe if its going to take 10 minutes to hobble along the roof or inch your way up a ladder, you'd be better taking their offer of just staying on the boat?


Do you own a 60’ boat based on a narrow canal? In which case that’s all probably fine, particularly if you generally stay at the helm through the lock.

 

If you work a short boat up T&M, S&W or Oxford narrow locks, or pretty much  any broad lock you really will want to take a few moments to ensure the boat is positioned and possibly secured before anybody touches a paddle.

 

It’s also a real danger to a single hander to have anybody moving paddles (or the other boat if sharing a broad lock) when the single hander is in the process of accessing or egressing their helm via the lock ladder.

 

The last thing any helper should do is JFDI, they simply don’t know what the steerers requirements and movements are going to be.

 

There are plenty of things that can wrong and most of them are triggered by undue speed at the outset, or by drawing paddles in the wrong order.

 

Conversely the steerer of a short boat can be far less careful with gate paddles than a long boat.

 

There simply isn’t a single way that applies to working locks.

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1 hour ago, Paul C said:

I'm going to be the devil's advocate here, excuse me....

 

When you drive into a lock, you kinda need the gate open. Then once you're in it, you need it closed. Broad locks and the "single gate open for a narrowboat" debate aside, there's nothing much complicated about that, and nothing much to go wrong.

 

Once you're in a lock.....the paddles need opening. As a boater, you should be aware that, at some point in the next 5 minutes, the paddles ARE going to be opened. So......GET YOUR BOAT AND YOURSELF READY FOR THAT!!!!! I don't know what some boaters are doing when there is a huge delay between gates closing and paddles open. Its a waste of time. JFDI, etc.....

 

My pet peeve is when I'm driving the boat, its driven into the lock (sometimes I'm not even on it, if I've nipped off to close the offside paddle going down) and it goes to the front then..............nothing. Or another 'helpful' boater is doing it 1 click at a time, or waiting for intimate eye contact or a secret squirrel signal. JFDI..........please.....

 

And if you're singlehanding and going up in the lock........and you want to get off once in the lock......just tell them before "I'm going to be getting off the boat, not staying on it" and get off it quick so the boat behind isn't inconvenienced (any further).....and maybe if its going to take 10 minutes to hobble along the roof or inch your way up a ladder, you'd be better taking their offer of just staying on the boat?

Not a volockie fan as you know, but I agree with much of what you say. But I think we have to bear in mind that a fairly high % of private owners don’t really know what they’re doing, having just spent their £££ on a shiny new toy. And many people are very unaware of what is transpiring around them. They did a lock on the T&M where the boat got pulled forward strongly and hit the gate, so now they are on the Coventry they continue to be “one click wonders”, opening a top paddle a few clicks whilst intently staring at the boat which is not moving at all. It doesn’t occur to them that if they fully open the paddles, the boat will continue to barely move. Being moored at Fazeley we see this all the time. Or worse, doing same for bottom paddles.

 

So I don’t care if someone opens a paddle without my “authorisation”, after all as you say what else do I expect to happen? Jeff does it all the time, and me to him. If it is an unusual or fierce looking lock we will be more circumspect but otherwise on narrow midlands locks it is both paddles fully up and let’s not piss about too much.

 

What I dislike about volockies is not that they might open paddles without my “authorisation”, it is the micro-managing and back seat driving that sometimes goes with it.

 

And anyway, we like working locks, and pay for it. Why should some random volunteer steal that from us?

Edited by nicknorman
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Worse things happen at sea. (c.MM)  Or on the Thames, where with several boats in the lock, lock keeper opened the paddles and then immediately walked off site and down the road to see a mate for 5 mins, came back to open the gates. Of course all boat crew were on their boats as per EA instructions. Ok it’s pretty unlikely that something would go wrong, but…

Edited by nicknorman
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20 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

......... you really will want to take a few moments to ensure the boat is positioned and possibly secured before anybody touches a paddle.

...................... the single hander is in the process of accessing or egressing their helm via the lock ladder.

................

 

If you're experienced, learn to do this efficiently.

If you're not experienced, ask for help.

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9 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

If you're experienced, learn to do this efficiently.

If you're not experienced, ask for help.

You have no idea of the other boaters circumstances and without first engaging with them you may do something that could cause an issue.  What if they take things slowly because they have a disabled partner in the boat or young baby that would be unable to get themselves out of the boat if it were to sink, what if they like to bring the boat to a stop in the lock and then walk down the gunnels and climb the lock ladder and work the lock, whilst you whack the paddle up there is potential for them to be caught between the side of the boat and the lock wall.  Your proposed actions could have dangerous consequences.  I've been on the roof of our boat to go and climb a lock ladder when a "helpful" boater decided to whack a top paddle up, this sent the boat backwards hitting the bottom gates and only because of my experience I had seen the potential situation and was ready for it so I wasn't thrown off the roof with the impact.  I am more than happy to say to someone to put a paddle straight up once I have the boat where I want it in a lock and decided whether I am staying on or getting off.

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My experience of volockies, is not that they act dangerously, but quite the opposite, they can be too cautious. They discourage walking across gates, make you open both gates before entering a double lock, lift the paddles half way etc. 

 

Sharing with single handers can also be slow and frustrating if you are in a hurry, as they have a lot more to be careful about and seem in general to be creep along and pass through locks really slowly.

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8 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

 What if they take things slowly because............

 

No worries. No problems at all. They can stop and let a faster, more efficient boat/crew pass (because locks don't often occur singly, they're normally in some kind of flight, and that extra time at EVERY lock is going to royally piss off the boater behind).

 

Or......the single hander can accept the help of the faster crew, without needing to sign a contract and attend a Powerpoint presentation on all the caveats and conditions they feel entitled to impose upon them.

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5 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

My experience of volockies, is not that they act dangerously, but quite the opposite, they can be too cautious. They discourage walking across gates, make you open both gates before entering a double lock, lift the paddles half way etc. 

 

Sharing with single handers can also be slow and frustrating if you are in a hurry, as they have a lot more to be careful about and seem in general to be creep along and pass through locks really slowly.

 

If you are in that much of a hurry, perhaps tou should offer to go ahead of them, and have the lock ready for them when they arrive. I used to do a lot of single handing. and in most instances was actually quicker through locks than most other boaters. Consequently, I was often the one going ahead and getting the lock ready.

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5 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

No worries. No problems at all. They can stop and let a faster, more efficient boat/crew pass (because locks don't often occur singly, they're normally in some kind of flight, and that extra time at EVERY lock is going to royally piss off the boater behind).

 

Or......the single hander can accept the help of the faster crew, without needing to sign a contract and attend a Powerpoint presentation on all the caveats and conditions they feel entitled to impose upon them.

I expect my single handing is faster than many crewed boats and as David says feel free to go ahead and set, that is what my wife does when we are working a flight so I generally single hand the lock the boat is in.  Whilst I like to work locks efficiently I wouldn't impose my way of working a lock on a boater who doesn't know me.

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1 minute ago, David Schweizer said:

 

I used to do a lot of single handing. and in most instances was actually quicker through locks than most other boaters. 

 

This is sometimes said but its actually complete bollocks and physically impossible, mainly because its impossible to be in two places at once, namely operating one lock whilst going ahead and preparing the next lock in a flight. Unless you are regularly leaving the boat and sprinting or cycling. A crewed boat can ALWAYS split up and by getting the next lock ready, or at least starting on it, it WILL be quicker.....

 

....unless of course, we're comparing an efficient single hander to a terribly inefficient, overly cautious or near-deathly old, pair of boaters with a fear of locking, boating or scratching their boat. Which I suspect you are relating to and happens too often!!!!

 

As Jerry Springer once said "take care of yourself......and each other".

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1 minute ago, Paul C said:

 

This is sometimes said but its actually complete bollocks and physically impossible, mainly because its impossible to be in two places at once, namely operating one lock whilst going ahead and preparing the next lock in a flight. Unless you are regularly leaving the boat and sprinting or cycling. A crewed boat can ALWAYS split up and by getting the next lock ready, or at least starting on it, it WILL be quicker.....

 

....unless of course, we're comparing an efficient single hander to a terribly inefficient, overly cautious or near-deathly old, pair of boaters with a fear of locking, boating or scratching their boat. Which I suspect you are relating to and happens too often!!!!

 

As Jerry Springer once said "take care of yourself......and each other".

They don't have to be terribly inefficient, many boaters just take more time doing the basics when locking and use lock moorings which adds extra time.

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1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

Not a volockie fan as you know, but I agree with much of what you say. But I think we have to bear in mind that a fairly high % of private owners don’t really know what they’re doing, having just spent their £££ on a shiny new toy. And many people are very unaware of what is transpiring around them. They did a lock on the T&M where the boat got pulled forward strongly and hit the gate, so now they are on the Coventry they continue to be “one click wonders”, opening a top paddle a few clicks whilst intently staring at the boat which is not moving at all. It doesn’t occur to them that if they fully open the paddles, the boat will continue to barely move. Being moored at Fazeley we see this all the time. Or worse, doing same for bottom paddles.

 

So I don’t care if someone opens a paddle without my “authorisation”, after all as you say what else do I expect to happen? Jeff does it all the time, and me to him. If it is an unusual or fierce looking lock we will be more circumspect but otherwise on narrow midlands locks it is both paddles fully up and let’s not piss about too much.

 

If you or your OH pulled a paddle without acknowledgement from myself or anyone I had crewing for me you would quickly find yourself at best yelled at and at worst wearing your windlass in an unfortunate place....you might be fine with a lock being worked like that...I am not and I wouldn't impose how I worked a lock on anyone else....we all have our own methods when its our "crew" and our boat but to impose those on other boaters is the height of ignorance.

 

I may not agree with how you work a lock or you with me but "my boat my rules" is a mantra to work by.....yes some people faff about and its annoying but such is life....boat a bit longer into the day and you will often pass them tied up for lunch or dinner and they are then behind you.

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20 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

They don't have to be terribly inefficient, many boaters just take more time doing the basics when locking and use lock moorings which adds extra time.

And do that terrible thing of waiting til the boat coming out the lock has cleared their boat before untying and moving off. 
They should be slipping in to the lock as soon as. 
 

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7 minutes ago, frangar said:

If you or your OH pulled a paddle without acknowledgement from myself or anyone I had crewing for me you would quickly find yourself at best yelled at and at worst wearing your windlass in an unfortunate place....

 

If you threatened violence against me I'd kill you - efficiently.

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I have often single handed in the past and yes, I am often quicker than a full crew. Having said which if I was in a tearing hurry I doubt I would be doing anything even remotely near a canal.

The volunteer Lockies I have met have all been attentive and have always taken their lead from me. I am happy to accept assistance when offered, my wife has MS and is now unable to help with locks, so any help is welcomed with a smile.

I am always happy to help others, unless and until they start snapping "Yes, I know" whilst getting everything so wrong it could cause a drained pound or flooded field, then I tend to note the phone number of the hire base and give them a ring with the name of the offending boat, location and damage caused. Usually there are sufficient people present to gently suggest they get back on board and we'll help them through as "this lock can be problematic".

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