Small propane (orange) gas cylinders - 3.9kg

[Liam]

13 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Do you still have your written rental agreement?If so, yes I think they will! 

 

 

No they won't as it expires after a set amount of time.

[IanD]

5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Just remember that ALL of the boats moored 'next to me' (or even within '50 miles' of me) have not had any gas inspections, could well be unsafe gas installations & everyone could be DIY filled.

 

How many gas explosions have been recorded on the 300,000+ leisure coastal boats ?

 

You worry about your boat compromises and how the trip hazards on the gunwales could lead to you drowning and I'll worry about my decisions.

 

'You cannot fix stupid' - so, as the saying goes 'worry about what you can fix'.

I'm sure you realise this is a BS argument, like claiming that people who want any safety precautions anywhere -- like speed limits -- are somehow trying to stop people enjoying dangerous sports.

 

The difference is that dangerous sports only risk you, driving like a maniac risks killing other people.

 

This is exactly the same case. Suggesting that people should DIY fill gas bottles not intended for this is dangerous and stupid, regardless of whether *you* are capable of doing it safely -- because lots of people who do it won't be as careful as you.

 

If you don't understand this fundamental issue, you're either dumber than I thought, terribly selfish and uncaring, or deliberately twisting the facts (like some other posters do all the time) to avoid admitting that your arguments don't make sense... 😞

 

There doesn't seem any point continuing this discussion with you if you continue to wilfully misunderstand the basic problem with what you're suggesting.

Edited July 19, 2022 by IanD

[Feeby100]

To the ones that fill them self 

do you regularly pressure test you bottles ? 
I think not 

calor do to make sure bottle are safe 

some thing to think about when you the boat and next doors boat and family go bang 

[IanD]

15 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

 

But if you do it right its safe, should we ban all DIY.

Same misunderstanding as Alan -- things are banned (or at least not encouraged) that might cause significant risk -- including death -- to other people, especially if done by non-experts. Like DIY firework mortar manufacture...

 

And before you or Alan or anybody else says "but I've been refilling bottles safely for ages, there haven't been any such explosions, you're scaremongering" -- today very few people do this (and probably only the ones who are knowledgeable and careful), I guess 99% or more buy the bottles from Calor because it's easy and safe.

 

If the sale of the smaller bottles is stopped and large numbers of people switch to DIY refilling them instead -- encouraged by posts in the internet (including here) telling them how cheap and simple it is -- then the risk of overfilling and a subsequent explosion will be hugely increased compared to today, and sooner or later somebody will die as a result.

 

Even though I'm sure this will get the same objections again, I'm going to say it again -- it is dangerous and irresponsible to encourage people to DIY refill gas cylinders (especially large ones, as opposed to the tiny Camping Gaz ones) when the only thing stopping it going horribly wrong is the care and expertise of the DIYer, which is absolutely not guaranteed to be up to the job for many people... 😞

Edited July 20, 2022 by IanD

[Jerra]

11 hours ago, Tim Lewis said:

From Facebook

 

 

To me that doesn't read as if they are with drawing 3.9Kg cylinders any time soon.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Jerra said:

To me that doesn't read as if they are with drawing 3.9Kg cylinders any time soon.

 

Same here.

 

Sounds like crossed wires somewhere..

[Momac]

23 minutes ago, IanD said:

Same misunderstanding as Alan -- things are banned (or at least not encouraged) that might cause significant risk -- including death -- to other people, especially if done by non-experts.

 

And before you or Alan or anybody else says "but I've been refilling bottles safely for ages, there haven't been any such explosions, you're scaremongering" -- today very few people do this (and probably only the ones who are knowledgeable and careful), I guess 99% or more buy the bottles from Calor because it's easy and safe.

 

If the sale of the smaller bottles is stopped and large numbers of people switch to DIY refilling them instead -- encouraged by posts in the internet (including here) telling them how cheap and simple it is -- then the risk of overfilling and a subsequent explosion will be hugely increased compared to today, and sooner or later somebody will die as a result.

 

Even though I'm sure this will get the same objections again, I'm going to say it again -- it is dangerous and irresponsible to encourage people to DIY refill gas cylinders (especially large ones, as opposed to the tiny Camping Gaz ones) when the only thing stopping it going horribly wrong is the care and expertise of the DIYer, which is absolutely not guaranteed to be up to the job for many people... 😞

I agree 

No everyone has access to a suitable space to carry out the gas transfer . Doing it in your own back yard might not be  a sound plan. For example lets not forget gas is heavier than air so any escaped gas should not be allowed to  get into drainage as well obviously avoiding gas entering a building .

 

 

[rusty69]

Well, as a user of 4.5kg bottles, I will definitely be refilling my own. I haven't been able to easily source a refill for over 2 years now. 

[IanD]

38 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I agree 

No everyone has access to a suitable space to carry out the gas transfer . Doing it in your own back yard might not be  a sound plan. For example lets not forget gas is heavier than air so any escaped gas should not be allowed to  get into drainage as well obviously avoiding gas entering a building .

 

 

The big safety problem isn't leakage during the transfer, it's the risk that through incompetence or ignorance people will fill the cylinder up to (or close to) 100% with little or no space for gas above the liquid. If the bottle later heats up the pressure will rise massively since liquid propane expands a lot with temperature (2.7%/10C, 17 times more than water), with the result that either the pressure relief plug pops out or (less likely) the cylinder splits.

22 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Well, as a user of 4.5kg bottles, I will definitely be refilling my own. I haven't been able to easily source a refill for over 2 years now. 

Take care and follow all the precautions Alan listed and you'll be fine 🙂

 

Others less perceptive may be less fortunate 😞

[Alan de Enfield]

42 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Well, as a user of 4.5kg bottles, I will definitely be refilling my own. I haven't been able to easily source a refill for over 2 years now. 

 

But you are (allegedly) a sensible one, not a Darwinian candidate.

[Tacet]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

The big safety problem isn't leakage during the transfer, it's the risk that through incompetence or ignorance people will fill the cylinder up to (or close to) 100% with little or no space for gas above the liquid. If the bottle later heats up the pressure will rise massively since liquid propane expands a lot with temperature (2.7%/10C, 17 times more than water), with the result that either the pressure relief plug pops out or (less likely) the cylinder splits.

 

Take care and follow all the precautions Alan listed and you'll be fine 🙂

 

Alan's (listed) system does not ensure the cylinder is empty before refilling - which therefore could end very badly.  

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, Tacet said:

 

Alan's (listed) system does not ensure the cylinder is empty before refilling - which therefore could end very badly.  

 

But if Alan blew himself up as a result, that's fine according to him since it's Darwin in action... 😉

Edited July 20, 2022 by IanD

[Tacet]

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

But if Alan blew himself up as a result, that's fine according to him since it's Darwin in action... 😉

I have no wish to hear Alan or anyone else has blown themselves up; and I am quite sure Alan is smart enough to know whether the cylinder is empty or not.  Nevertheless it is a step not mentioned above. 

 

I am in two minds about the process; it is probably something I would do myself (should it be worth the effort) as, in common with us all, I think I know what I am doing.  But would not recommend it widely. 

[Naughty Cal]

A question for those who are refilling or who are considering refilling Calor bottles.

 

Why not just buy a Safefill (Gaslow, Gasit, etc) bottle which is designed to be refillable and has the relevant safety features inbuilt to make refill the bottles safe?

[Mike Tee]

43 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

A question for those who are refilling or who are considering refilling Calor bottles.

 

Why not just buy a Safefill (Gaslow, Gasit, etc) bottle which is designed to be refillable and has the relevant safety features inbuilt to make refill the bottles safe?

Which is what I suggested some time ago (specifically Safefill) - no more dangerous than filling the car up. I know, that can be dangerous as well, but so is a lot of stuff. Ban self drive through all the tunnels etc.

[Captain Pegg]

1 hour ago, Tacet said:

I have no wish to hear Alan or anyone else has blown themselves up; and I am quite sure Alan is smart enough to know whether the cylinder is empty or not.  Nevertheless it is a step not mentioned above. 

 

I am in two minds about the process; it is probably something I would do myself (should it be worth the effort) as, in common with us all, I think I know what I am doing.  But would not recommend it widely. 

Of course the irony of this little exchange between forum heavyweights (literal or not is down to the individual’s imagination) is that if you had to stake your own life on choosing one individual from this forum to know, understand and execute a safety critical procedure you’d pick @Alan de Enfield

[Arthur Marshall]

I'm not sure anyone is recommending that we all do this. But if someone is going to, this thread is a pretty good resource to learn how to do it safely and what dangers to watch out for.

I very much doubt that many people will try it.

[IanD]

18 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Of course the irony of this little exchange between forum heavyweights (literal or not is down to the individual’s imagination) is that if you had to stake your own life on choosing one individual from this forum to know, understand and execute a safety critical procedure you’d pick @Alan de Enfield

Or select an anchor suitable for mooring at sea in a gale off a rocky lee shore... 😉

[Momac]

2 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

A question for those who are refilling or who are considering refilling Calor bottles.

 

Why not just buy a Safefill (Gaslow, Gasit, etc) bottle which is designed to be refillable and has the relevant safety features inbuilt to make refill the bottles safe?

Slight concern that autogas availability is in decline 

Also not sure how you go about filling an autogas bottle that is not fitted in a vehicle .

Unless you are suggesting refilling a gaslow cylinder from a larger butane or propane cylinder ?

[Tacet]

1 hour ago, Captain Pegg said:

Of course the irony of this little exchange between forum heavyweights (literal or not is down to the individual’s imagination) is that if you had to stake your own life on choosing one individual from this forum to know, understand and execute a safety critical procedure you’d pick @Alan de Enfield

It is 'unusual' to have 'Alan' propounding the "it will be 'fine'" approach to a safety 'issue'.

 

See 'what' I did there?

[ditchcrawler]

6 hours ago, IanD said:

Same misunderstanding as Alan -- things are banned (or at least not encouraged) that might cause significant risk -- including death -- to other people, especially if done by non-experts. Like DIY firework mortar manufacture...

 

And before you or Alan or anybody else says "but I've been refilling bottles safely for ages, there haven't been any such explosions, you're scaremongering" -- today very few people do this (and probably only the ones who are knowledgeable and careful), I guess 99% or more buy the bottles from Calor because it's easy and safe.

 

If the sale of the smaller bottles is stopped and large numbers of people switch to DIY refilling them instead -- encouraged by posts in the internet (including here) telling them how cheap and simple it is -- then the risk of overfilling and a subsequent explosion will be hugely increased compared to today, and sooner or later somebody will die as a result.

 

Even though I'm sure this will get the same objections again, I'm going to say it again -- it is dangerous and irresponsible to encourage people to DIY refill gas cylinders (especially large ones, as opposed to the tiny Camping Gaz ones) when the only thing stopping it going horribly wrong is the care and expertise of the DIYer, which is absolutely not guaranteed to be up to the job for many people... 😞

Today they buy an adapter and go the the garage and have no idea how much is going in.

[Jon57]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

Slight concern that autogas availability is in decline 

Also not sure how you go about filling an autogas bottle that is not fitted in a vehicle .

Unless you are suggesting refilling a gaslow cylinder from a larger butane or propane cylinder ?

Morrisons is an approved retailer for safe fill cylinders is no longer doing lpg in 2024. So will have to find alternative supplier for my cylinder. Payed for it's self many times over. Had it since 2016 not had any problems with refills so far from different suppliers. Used it on my latest boat in a slight angle with the valve upright for the last 4 yrs along side the 6kg bottle without any issues. Don't know if it's worth selling to the alliminium site hut brigade in the future. We will see.🤔

[IanD]

42 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Today they buy an adapter and go the the garage and have no idea how much is going in.

And is that legal or safe? AFAIK you're only legally allowed to refill approved cylinders like Safefill, just like you're only allowed to use approved petrol cans.

 

If they're breaking the law, I don't think Alan would approve, he's quite a stickler for that 😉

[ditchcrawler]

21 minutes ago, IanD said:

And is that legal or safe?  

Of course its not safe or legal but its cheaper than buying refills so people will do it so long as the gas is available. Its a bloody sight more irresponsible than using scales and weighing what you are putting in with gravity and not a pump.

[Captain Pegg]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

Or select an anchor suitable for mooring at sea in a gale off a rocky lee shore... 😉

I’m happy to defer to his seafaring skills. To be honest I know sod all about them and I don’t need to. I think one of the arts of using this forum to your best advantage is working out who really knows about the subject at hand and who doesn’t.