Small propane (orange) gas cylinders - 3.9kg

[MtB]

23 minutes ago, buccaneer66 said:

Looks like I should get rid of my two 4.5kg butane bottles that I used for my camping cooking then.

 

 

I think boaters whose boats really are too low at the bow to modify the gas locker to accept 13kg propane bottles will have to switch to using the Campingaz R907 cylinder, holding 2.75kg of <something>. Butane presumably.

 

https://www.campingaz.co.uk/gas/refillable-gas-bottles/r907-empty-cylinder/SAP_3000005493.html

 

 

 

[frangar]

26 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

I think boaters whose boats really are too low at the bow to modify the gas locker to accept 13kg propane bottles will have to switch to using the Campingaz R907 cylinder, holding 2.75kg of <something>. Butane presumably.

 

https://www.campingaz.co.uk/gas/refillable-gas-bottles/r907-empty-cylinder/SAP_3000005493.html

 

 

 

Have you seen the price of those!! 

[gatekrash]

15 hours ago, Mike55 said:

They're at the stern (semi trad), & the locker top forms a seat. The locker needs to be about 2" higher/deeper. Raising the seat 2" would make it uncomfortable to sit on, so lowering the floor would seem to be the way to go. The locker drains are in the floor & our diesel heater is mounted underneath, so I'm not sure how much space we've got to play with. It's way to hot today to spend any time in the engine bay with a still hot engine!

 

Ours are in exactly the same place on our semi trad. We can get 3x 6kg cylinders in there. The locker floor is level with the gunwales and the seat (locker lid) is about the right height. Although our boat has quite low gunwales.

 

Ours was converted from a second diesel tank when the boat was changed from gas free.

 

I reckon it'll cause a lot of headaches for small sailing/motor lumpy water boats. We use 4.5kg butane on our lumpy water boat as do loads of others judging by the quantity of bottles that size in our local chandlery, and changing an integral gas locker on a manufactured GRP yacht isn't going to be an easy job.

15 hours ago, Mike55 said:

 

 

15 hours ago, Mike55 said:

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by gatekrash
Duplicated...

[MtB]

16 minutes ago, frangar said:

Have you seen the price of those!! 

 

 

£54.99 for a refill.

 

This is where the danger lies. I will be refilling my own, as will everyone else. 

 

 

 

[jake_crew]

Yes camping gas is the most expensive in the world but it is universal.   Will Flogas and the other clones continue to sell small cylinders I wonder?  Will calor refund my deposit from 30 years ago ?

[MtB]

Just now, jake_crew said:

Will calor refund my deposit from 30 years ago ?

 

Do you still have your written rental agreement?If so, yes I think they will! 

 

 

[agg221]

15 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

£54.99 for a refill.

 

This is where the danger lies. I will be refilling my own, as will everyone else. 

 

 

 

Precisely. If you work on the basis that people need some source of heat for cooking and sometimes also space/water heating, and presume that they are not suddenly going to give up cooking and space/water heating when the cylinder that fits their boat becomes unavailable, and you also assume that they are only using the smaller cylinder which is more expensive per kg for a good reason, such as it is the only one which fits, it is logical to assume that they will need to find an alternative. A handful may be able to cut about the gas locker and get a bigger cylinder in, and that would pay back in the long term, and maybe a few can convert to other options such as diesel stoves and heaters, but the majority I would think are going to be stuck with either the phenomenally expensive campingaz option or they will end up refilling their own cylinders.

 

Refilling is reasonably easy to do safely, but you will inevitably get situations such as someone .cc'ing who has nowhere to store a larger cylinder to decant from, so it will live on the boat somewhere else. You will end up with people trying to do the refill without taking the small cylinder out of the locker because they are lazy. Most significantly, there will no longer be a cycle of inspection which catches corroded cylinders or ones with leaking valves, which will lead to a progressive level of deterioration and increasing risk over the next decade or so.

 

I don't understand the decision myself - there is demand so why not supply it?

 

Alec

Edited July 19, 2022 by agg221

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, agg221 said:

Refilling is reasonably easy to do safely,

 

Is it though? Could you explain the details please?

 

It's not obvious to me as a gas technician, how to do it from bottle to bottle, particularly as the donor bottle would need to be inverted. That alone makes it 'unsafe' in my opinion. 

 

[Captain Pegg]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

 

I think boaters whose boats really are too low at the bow to modify the gas locker to accept 13kg propane bottles will have to switch to using the Campingaz R907 cylinder, holding 2.75kg of <something>. Butane presumably.

 

https://www.campingaz.co.uk/gas/refillable-gas-bottles/r907-empty-cylinder/SAP_3000005493.html

 

 

 

 

I would have that problem since the current gas locker vents are barely above the water line on a locker built for 2 x 3.9kg cylinders. Maybe I could have a forecabin (rather than a potter's cabin) fabricated to produce the additional height required. But I'd rather not. As has been stated above FloGas supply 3.9kg propane and 4.5kg butane bottles to the same overall dimensions as Calor albeit the propane bottles appear to be a different shape. That seems to be the option but at present with the drawback that everyone canalside appears to stock Calor.

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by Captain Pegg

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

I would have that problem since the current gas locker vents are barely above the water line on a locker built for 2 x 3.9kg cylinders. Maybe I could have a forecabin (rather than a potter's cabin) fabricated to produce the additional height required. But I'd rather not. As has been stated above FloGas supply 3.9kg propane and 4.5kg butane bottles to the same overall dimensions as Calor albeit the propane bottles appear to be a different shape. That seems to be the option but at present with the drawback that everyone canalside appears to stock Calor.

 

 

I too have this on both of my boats. A single 6kg or even a single 13kg can usually be stood centrally in the locker hatch with the handle and valve protruding above deck height, but this requires an upstand to be welded in place and the lid height raised to pass BSS. 

 

I think we will be seeing quite a few boats like yours and mine with enlarged gas locker hatches with upstands and lids big enough to accommodate two 13kg bottles side by side.

 

 

[Mike Tee]

would one of these fit? Not cheap but probably cheaper than getting a metal fabricator involved. Re-fillable at LPG filling stations which is a lot cheaper than Calor. 

 

https://www.lpgshop.co.uk/safefill-gas-bottle-small-refillable-5kg-lpg/

[MtB]

This will ruin the sleek look of the long, low tug style decks such as those built by Orion, etc.

2 minutes ago, Mike Tee said:

would one of these fit? Not cheap but probably cheaper than getting a metal fabricator involved. Re-fillable at LPG filling stations which is a lot cheaper than Calor. 

 

https://www.lpgshop.co.uk/safefill-gas-bottle-small-refillable-5kg-lpg/

 

 

Good find! 

 

At 400mm high this is 60mm taller than a 3.9 Calor, but most gas lockers will accept that I reckon.

 

Only refillable at an LPG fuel station AFAICS though, so still a PITA for CCers or anyone away from their car.

 

 

[Captain Pegg]

7 minutes ago, Mike Tee said:

would one of these fit? Not cheap but probably cheaper than getting a metal fabricator involved. Re-fillable at LPG filling stations which is a lot cheaper than Calor. 

 

https://www.lpgshop.co.uk/safefill-gas-bottle-small-refillable-5kg-lpg/

 

The 5kg one is slightly taller and wider than the 3.9kg bottles so it might in many cases. It's configured to be refillable at a fuel station pump but isn't LPG on UK forecourts also a declining thing that never really took off?

[IanD]

The problem with DIY refilling the Calor bottles is that though it *can* be done safely if you know what you're doing (e.g. Alan), it can also be very dangerous if you don't -- for example "full" is not actually full, you need to leave some space above the liquid gas (about 25% IIRC?) to allow for expansion when the bottle warms up (like today), which is why they're sold by weight of gas.

 

With manual DIY refilling of standard Calor bottles (not Safefill, the clue's in the name) there's nothing stopping people who don't know what they're doing ("the internet said it was simple!") filling the bottle right to the top, which is likely to have tragic consequences sooner or later... 😞

[Captain Pegg]

31 minutes ago, MtB said:

This will ruin the sleek look of the long, low tug style decks such as those built by Orion, etc.

 

 

Good find! 

 

At 400mm high this is 60mm taller than a 3.9 Calor, but most gas lockers will accept that I reckon.

 

Only refillable at an LPG fuel station AFAICS though, so still a PITA for CCers or anyone away from their car.

 

 

 

I think FloGas, the internet and a trolley is the answer. The small cylinders are light enough to wheel around easily enough.

 

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

I think FloGas, the internet and a trolley is the answer. The small cylinders are light enough to wheel around easily enough.

 

If you mean DIY refilling then Flogas has the same safety problem as Calor, though... 😞

 

The problem with Flogas for boaters is that it's *much* less widely available than Calor, and though it's easy to drive a car 50 miles to pick up a cylinder... 😉

Edited July 19, 2022 by IanD

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, gatekrash said:

 

I reckon it'll cause a lot of headaches for small sailing/motor lumpy water boats. We use 4.5kg butane on our lumpy water boat as do loads of others judging by the quantity of bottles that size in our local chandlery, and changing an integral gas locker on a manufactured GRP yacht isn't going to be an easy job.

Its an odd decision by Calor. If the market for small bottles is as large as you suggest, then it would seem to be illogical in commercial terms for Calor to stop supplying them. Indeed, given the price of the Camping Gaz alternative I would have thought there was a fair scope for Calor to increase their prices for the small bottles, without too much impact on demand.

[Captain Pegg]

Just now, IanD said:

If you mean DIY refilling then Flogas has the same safety problem as Calor, though... 😞

 

Not refilling. They supply bottles but have limited stockists hence it will require a bit of planning.

 

I wondered why it took as long as it did for someone to mention FloGas so I'm still waiting for someone to throw a curveball...

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, IanD said:

The problem with DIY refilling the Calor bottles is that though it *can* be done safely if you know what you're doing (e.g. Alan), it can also be very dangerous if you don't -- for example "full" is not actually full, you need to leave some space above the liquid gas (about 25% IIRC?) to allow for expansion when the bottle warms up (like today), which is why they're sold by weight of gas.

 

With manual DIY refilling of standard Calor bottles (not Safefill, the clue's in the name) there's nothing stopping people who don't know what they're doing ("the internet said it was simple!") filling the bottle right to the top, which is likely to have tragic consequences sooner or later... 😞

 

You fill to 80% and that is done by weight.

Work out what 80% of the weight of gas that the cylinder is rated as (ie 80% of 3.9kg = 3.1kg)

Stand the empty cylinder on the scales, zero the scales and as you fill watch the weight and when to gets to 3kg STOP.

 

This gives you a safe 'underfill' with expansion space for hot weather.

 

It is important that the filling / transfer is done in the 'open air' to allow the gas 'spurt' when connecting / disconnecting to disperse.

Doing it on a cold evening, in front of the fire would not be conducive to good health.

 

When filling, the donor cylinder must be inverted (not easy to invert and hold a 47kg cylinder without mechanical assistance) as it is the LIQUID you are wanting to transfer - not the actual gas.

It helps filling if the receiving cylinder is cold (ideally cooled in a fridge or freezer, but even cooled in a bucket of cold water helps) to aid transfer.

 

Sounds a 'faff' but once done the next time becomes easier, and how often are you changing gas cylinders ? (2, 3 or 4 times per year ?) its not exactly a daily event.

 

At home (miles out in the sticks') we have a big LPG tank in the garden, & they only ever work on refilling at 20%  and never fill to above 80%. (a bit like Lithium batteries) It has a sender of some sort that sends a message to Calor saying "come and fill me up"

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You fill to 80% and that is done by weight.

Work out what 80% of the weight of gas that the cylinder is rated as (ie 80% of 3.9kg = 3.1kg)

Stand the empty cylinder on the scales, zero the scales and as you fill watch the weight and when to gets to 3kg STOP.

 

This gives you a safe 'underfill' with expansion space for hot weather.

 

It is important that the filling / transfer is done in the 'open air' to allow the gas 'spurt' when connecting / disconnecting to disperse.

Doing it on a cold evening, in front of the fire would not be conducive to good health.

 

When filling, the donor cylinder must be inverted (not easy to invert and hold a 47kg cylinder without mechanical assistance) as it is the LIQUID you are wanting to transfer - not the actual gas.

It helps filling if the receiving cylinder is cold (ideally cooled in a fridge or freezer, but even cooled in a bucket of cold water helps) to aid transfer.

 

Sounds a 'faff' but once done the next time becomes easier, and how often are you changing gas cylinders ? (2, 3 or 4 times per year ?) its not exactly a daily event.

 

At home (miles out in the sticks') we have a big LPG tank in the garden, & they only ever work on refilling at 20%  and never fill to above 80%. (a bit like Lithium batteries) It has a sender of some sort that sends a message to Calor saying "come and fill me up"

 

Like I said Alan, you know how to do it safely -- but all the important safety precautions are down to the user, and some people are not as clever or safety-aware as you -- to put it mildly... 😉

 

Just look at the idiotic mistakes people make because somebody on the Internet "said it was simple"... 😞

[LEO]

Hi,

Looks as though I will have to modify storage arrangements on my boat which has a tug deck. The difference in height between small bottles and the 6Kg ones is 155mm. I will probably remove the locker lid, raise the upstands as necessary to accommodate the new bottles and refit the lid and hinges, Will involve a small amount of welding, but would not affect the lines on the tug deck too much....

[IanD]

1 minute ago, LEO said:

Hi,

Looks as though I will have to modify storage arrangements on my boat which has a tug deck. The difference in height between small bottles and the 6Kg ones is 155mm. I will probably remove the locker lid, raise the upstands as necessary to accommodate the new bottles and refit the lid and hinges, Will involve a small amount of welding, but would not affect the lines on the tug deck too much....

 

Can you also get them a bit lower by resting them on something thinner than the wooden slats? (e.g one of those perforated plastic mats intended to not trap water underneath)

[MtB]

11 minutes ago, LEO said:

Hi,

Looks as though I will have to modify storage arrangements on my boat which has a tug deck. The difference in height between small bottles and the 6Kg ones is 155mm. I will probably remove the locker lid, raise the upstands as necessary to accommodate the new bottles and refit the lid and hinges, Will involve a small amount of welding, but would not affect the lines on the tug deck too much....

 

 

Bear in mind the valve on the gas bottle must remain below the height of the top lip of the gas locker rim. 

 

 

[MtB]

24 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

When filling, the donor cylinder must be inverted (not easy to invert and hold a 47kg cylinder without mechanical assistance) as it is the LIQUID you are wanting to transfer - not the actual gas.

It helps filling if the receiving cylinder is cold (ideally cooled in a fridge or freezer, but even cooled in a bucket of cold water helps) to aid transfer.

 

 

Hve you actually done this yourself?

 

What I don't get is what motive force makes the liquid gas flow down into the lower bottle, given I would expect the vapour pressure in the lower bottle to equalise with the upper bottle almost instantly the valves are both opened. 

 

The liquid propane in the lower bottle will surely boil in a flash and equalise the pressures, leaving only gravity to cause the flow, and a tube maybe only 1/4" in diameter will surely air-lock. Or vapour-lock rather, thus preventing any liquid flow. 

 

When they fill the bulk tanks the liquid gas in pumped in I reckon, so the vapour in the receiving tank condenses as the pressure rises. This can't happen when filling 'bottle to bottle'. 

 

 

[LEO]

Thanks for the tips (I and M), will take into account, I found gas lockers on Tug decks produce some amazing ways of complying with BSS inspections (albeit for the short term), and the small bottles seemed the safest option. 13 Kg bottles are heavy too lift and re-filling seemed a tricky option.